New RCS Triad too strong

We had a long ongoing discussion to help the RCS. Suggestions to lower
hull prices were rejected, instead this triad income was installed. To
be true, I can't that it has been on the list some time.

I agree that the generated money is too high, because now you can get
this in turn 5.
On the other hand it is a game of luck, if planets are dispersed you
will never get a triad running.
I am playing RCS and own about 20 planets but there is just one triad.

I really would have preferred another way to give the RCS a little
economic boost, something
significant in the beginning but nonetheless scalebale and useful in
the late game.

I don't want to repeat all suggestions already made, but two ideas
seem to be nice:
1) Give them better access to complex tax rate (hisser-units,
lightside factors, resorts)
2) The triad idea (well it is stylish, I must admit).
Just count the number of special race building. For every pack of
three you get a bonus of 100 mc on every base with a special race
building and at least 250.000 colonists. The additional income is
capped at 400 mc.

If you start quick you can have 5 new bases + your starting base.
Three of them will have enough population.
You generate 600 mc/turn for an investment of 3.440 mc.
In the late game with 30 triads and maybe 60 with enough population
(well 90 race buildings is a bit unrealistic but to compute) you would
hit the maximum of 60 x 400 = 24000 mc (a good lotus / turn).

Joyride

On 12 Feb., 16:55, Lord Lancelot <polan... DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
> First this bonus should be possible only once per RCS player, only one
> Triad income, (if you have 10 triad only one will pay). The one with
> the highest population will pay.
>
> * It need to be attached to the population, it could pay 500mc per
> million colonist, and the money is generated on the highest population
> population base. Note this is 500Mc per Million colonist only at one
> of the 3 planet of the Triad not on all 3. This would mean a lot less
> money at start than 1500 X 3 like now witch is way too much, and has
> the bonus to scale and be useful even late game.
>
> * With only 1 triad, I would increase the range to 150-200ly, to make
> sure 1 triad is possible on all maps.
>
> Lord Lancelot
 >> Stay informed about: New RCS Triad too strong 

On 13 Feb., 09:55, Joyride <Blue_rainc... RemoveThis @gmx.de> wrote:
> We had a long ongoing discussion to help the RCS. Suggestions to lower
> hull prices were rejected, instead this triad income was installed. To
> be true, I can't that it has been on the list some time.

The triad concept was originally developed by Christian Jadot. It was
the last idea he shared with me before he disappeared. After Magik
rejected our idea to add 1 mc to the farm income in Arerran Capital
bases (too similar to Agrovators) I brought up the triad idea as
replacement. Magik liked the idea and implemented a first version.

> I agree that the generated money is too high, because now you can get
> this in turn 5.

Hmm, that would be true lucky. And still, other races can use similar
and better income sources that early. The triad is not unbalancing.

> On the other hand it is a game of luck, if planets are dispersed you
> will never get a triad running.
> I am playing RCS and own about 20 planets but there is just one triad.
>
> I really would have preferred another way to give the RCS a little
> economic boost, something
> significant in the beginning but nonetheless scalebale and useful in
> the late game.

The triad income should be rather neglectable in late game and this is
intended.

> I don't want to repeat all suggestions already made, but two ideas
> seem to be nice:
> 1) Give them better access to complex tax rate (hisser-units,
> lightside factors, resorts)

I suggested Resorts, but they were rejected until additional help is
needed for the RCS after playtesting the recent and coming changes.

> 2) The triad idea (well it is stylish, I must admit).
> Just count the number of special race building. For every pack of
> three you get a bonus of 100 mc on every base with a special race
> building and at least 250.000 colonists. The additional income is
> capped at 400 mc.
>
> If you start quick you can have 5 new bases + your starting base.
> Three of them will have enough population.
> You generate 600 mc/turn for an investment of 3.440 mc.
> In the late game with 30 triads and maybe 60 with enough population
> (well 90 race buildings is a bit unrealistic but to compute) you would
> hit the maximum of 60 x 400 = 24000 mc (a good lotus / turn).
>
> Joyride

Hey forget 30 triads. This is usually impossible on most maps and if
the map is that dense, the host should lower the triad range, of
course.

I suggested a very similar system to Christan, but he rejected that.
The triad is meant to be a goody that is provided by a rare star
constellation, that must be searched for or is simply possible early
by chance.

Thriyon
 >> Stay informed about: New RCS Triad too strong 

Well, I was unclear with my suggestion #2.
I did not say anything about distance, so I was just building packages
of race-buildings, something like
# triad = min(nawole garden, aerrean cap., Xelovi hive). I am not in
programming nor in maths but I think you get the idea.

> > 2) The triad idea (well it is stylish, I must admit).
> > Just count the number of special race building. For every pack of
> > three you get a bonus of 100 mc on every base with a special race
> > building and at least 250.000 colonists. The additional income is
> > capped at 400 mc.
> > If you start quick you can have 5 new bases + your starting base.
> > Three of them will have enough population.
> > You generate 600 mc/turn for an investment of 3.440 mc.
> > In the late game with 30 triads and maybe 60 with enough population
> > (well 90 race buildings is a bit unrealistic but to compute) you would
> > hit the maximum of 60 x 400 = 24000 mc (a good lotus / turn).
>
> > Joyride
>
> Hey forget 30 triads. This is usually impossible on most maps and if
> the map is that dense, the host should lower the triad range, of
> course.
>
> I suggested a very similar system to Christan, but he rejected that.
> The triad is meant to be a goody that is provided by a rare star
> constellation, that must be searched for or is simply possible early
> by chance.
>
> Thriyon


But leave that aside, because I didn´t know about host config ability.
With a 75 ly radius it is possible.
We should try it, but I really dislike those luck-dependent things.

Joyride
 >> Stay informed about: New RCS Triad too strong 

On Feb 13, 1:55 am, Joyride <Blue_rainc... DeleteThis @gmx.de> wrote:
> We had a long ongoing discussion to help the RCS. Suggestions to lower
> hull prices were rejected, instead this triad income was installed. To
> be true, I can't that it has been on the list some time.


Does anyone know if there any changes to the race pack planned?
 >> Stay informed about: New RCS Triad too strong 

This is better.

Thriyon
 >> Stay informed about: New RCS Triad too strong 

On Feb 14, 5:15 pm, Thri....DeleteThis@googlemail.com wrote:
> This is better.
>
> Thriyon

A bonus income of 4500 $ below turn 10, not tie to anything beside 3
planets is extremly high income this is 45 city extra, it is double
city income for 5 Mil starting pop, and insane high for 1-2 Mil
starting pop.

No testing is needed to see this income is way too much.

Lord Lancelot
 >> Stay informed about: New RCS Triad too strong 

Again, this bonus depends on the local map properties in conjunction
with the host setting for triads.

You said nothing to the mentioned other measures to make money that
early and that are not depending on anything or depending on only a
bit of luck. Are they insane also? And is Magik insane to implement
the RCS triad?

Thriyon



> A bonus income of 4500 $ below turn 10, not tie to anything beside 3
> planets is extremly high income this is 45 city extra, it is double
> city income for 5 Mil starting pop, and insane high for 1-2 Mil
> starting pop.
>
> No testing is needed to see this income is way too much.
>
> Lord Lancelot
 >> Stay informed about: New RCS Triad too strong 

Sorry Lancelot, but I disaggree. I have to say that Thriyon is right.

In the first place you really need a lot of luck to find three planets
close together.
Then you have to build the special buildings (-> you need planet tech
4 and cannot invest in hulltech)
You have to defend each of those precious pearls (and you can't
concentrate on one planet).
It seems to me complicated enough to get that reward.

And in the second place you took starting conditions into
consideration. There have always been races which do better or worse
under certain conditions. Nobody wants to lay waste to insectoid nests
because they are a significant power boost to robots with only 300.000
starting colonists.
And compared to the most common 1-2 million starting colonist
scenarios, it seems to me okay.

And in the third place don`t forget that the RCS is somewhat behind,
so they need to catch up
And what can they do with extra 4.500 / turn? It equals a lotus every
4 turns (though you need hull tech 9 for this).

So let's leave it alone for some time and gather some experience.

Joyride


> > No testing is needed to see this income is way too much.
>
> > Lord Lancelot
 >> Stay informed about: New RCS Triad too strong 

On Feb 14, 8:34 pm, Lord Lancelot <polan....DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 14, 5:15 pm, Thri....DeleteThis@googlemail.com wrote:
>
> > This is better.
>
> > Thriyon
>
> A bonus income of 4500 $ below turn 10, not tie to anything beside 3
> planets is extremly high income this is 45 city extra, it is double
> city income for 5 Mil starting pop, and insane high for 1-2 Mil
> starting pop.
>
> No testing is needed to see this income is way too much.
>
> Lord Lancelot

If it is determined that 4,500 MC is too much, how about just dumping
2/3 of it straight to GCs? 1,000GC, 500MC per base. I believe that I
will be dumping most Triad income into Gov Centers anyway.

In most cases, the Homeworld will not be a part of the Triad. It
might be, but likely not. It will also likely be at bit removed from
the Homeworld. It does take an initial investment to set up, but that
pays for itself within a turn or two. While I don't thing the income
needs to be tied linearly to population, 3 bases with only the 3
buildings and no colonists (I think that would still produce) pays for
itself in a single turn and has no downside (other than the loss of
"free" money) if someone blows it away.

Perhaps minimum structures are needed.

All need at least the Gov Center and 1 City (so at least 50k
Colonists).
Capital also needs 50 Farms.
Hive also needs 50 Mines.
Garden also needs a Public Space Port.

That would increase the initial investment, and leave population
vulnerable for capture if not defended.
 >> Stay informed about: New RCS Triad too strong 

On 15 Feb., 18:44, Amaranthine <Michael.Richardson.2... RemoveThis @gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Feb 14, 8:34 pm, Lord Lancelot <polan... RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 14, 5:15 pm, Thri... RemoveThis @googlemail.com wrote:
>
> > > This is better.
>
> > > Thriyon
>
> > A bonus income of 4500 $ below turn 10, not tie to anything beside 3
> > planets is extremly high income this is 45 city extra, it is double
> > city income for 5 Mil starting pop, and insane high for 1-2 Mil
> > starting pop.
>
> > No testing is needed to see this income is way too much.
>
> > Lord Lancelot
>
> If it is determined that 4,500 MC is too much, how about just dumping
> 2/3 of it straight to GCs? 1,000GC, 500MC per base. I believe that I
> will be dumping most Triad income into Gov Centers anyway.
>
> In most cases, the Homeworld will not be a part of the Triad. It
> might be, but likely not. It will also likely be at bit removed from
> the Homeworld. It does take an initial investment to set up, but that
> pays for itself within a turn or two. While I don't thing the income
> needs to be tied linearly to population, 3 bases with only the 3
> buildings and no colonists (I think that would still produce) pays for
> itself in a single turn and has no downside (other than the loss of
> "free" money) if someone blows it away.
>
> Perhaps minimum structures are needed.
>
> All need at least the Gov Center and 1 City (so at least 50k
> Colonists).
> Capital also needs 50 Farms.
> Hive also needs 50 Mines.
> Garden also needs a Public Space Port.
>
> That would increase the initial investment, and leave population
> vulnerable for capture if not defended.

I thought about making the triad income depending on a small
population already, but a small population won't matter and I use to
have 50k colonists on every base to run a city, too.

A triad base will always be a juicy target for attacks. Usually
enemies will try to destroy one of such bases ASAP obviously. 50k
colonists or less won't change the value of the triad bases
significantly.

We can collect those suggestions for the triad, of course. Magik said
something about revamping the code and after playtesting, there may be
a need for some change, too.

We shall ask all active RCS players to give their input about the new
triad code.

Thriyon
 >> Stay informed about: New RCS Triad too strong 

"Joyride" <Blue_raincoat RemoveThis @gmx.de> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:ae991ef1-b087-4a78-90dc-e62f7a2c770d@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> Sorry Lancelot, but I disaggree. I have to say that Thriyon is right.
>
> In the first place you really need a lot of luck to find three planets
> close together.
> Then you have to build the special buildings (-> you need planet tech
> 4 and cannot invest in hulltech)
> You have to defend each of those precious pearls (and you can't
> concentrate on one planet).
> It seems to me complicated enough to get that reward.
>
> And in the second place you took starting conditions into
> consideration. There have always been races which do better or worse
> under certain conditions. Nobody wants to lay waste to insectoid nests
> because they are a significant power boost to robots with only 300.000
> starting colonists.
> And compared to the most common 1-2 million starting colonist
> scenarios, it seems to me okay.
>
> And in the third place don`t forget that the RCS is somewhat behind,
> so they need to catch up
> And what can they do with extra 4.500 / turn? It equals a lotus every
> 4 turns (though you need hull tech 9 for this).
>
> So let's leave it alone for some time and gather some experience.
>
> Joyride

Think so, too. And I like that it is *not* bound to population - thus
not scaling well in late game.

Cheers,
Jochen
 >> Stay informed about: New RCS Triad too strong 

On Feb 15, 1:43 pm, Thri....DeleteThis@googlemail.com wrote:
> On 15 Feb., 18:44, Amaranthine <Michael.Richardson.2....DeleteThis@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 14, 8:34 pm, Lord Lancelot <polan....DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 14, 5:15 pm, Thri....DeleteThis@googlemail.com wrote:
>
> > > > This is better.
>
> > > > Thriyon
>
> > > A bonus income of 4500 $ below turn 10, not tie to anything beside 3
> > > planets is extremly high income this is 45 city extra, it is double
> > > city income for 5 Mil starting pop, and insane high for 1-2 Mil
> > > starting pop.
>
> > > No testing is needed to see this income is way too much.
>
> > > Lord Lancelot
>
> > If it is determined that 4,500 MC is too much, how about just dumping
> > 2/3 of it straight to GCs? 1,000GC, 500MC per base. I believe that I
> > will be dumping most Triad income into Gov Centers anyway.
>
> > In most cases, the Homeworld will not be a part of the Triad. It
> > might be, but likely not. It will also likely be at bit removed from
> > the Homeworld. It does take an initial investment to set up, but that
> > pays for itself within a turn or two. While I don't thing the income
> > needs to be tied linearly to population, 3 bases with only the 3
> > buildings and no colonists (I think that would still produce) pays for
> > itself in a single turn and has no downside (other than the loss of
> > "free" money) if someone blows it away.
>
> > Perhaps minimum structures are needed.
>
> > All need at least the Gov Center and 1 City (so at least 50k
> > Colonists).
> > Capital also needs 50 Farms.
> > Hive also needs 50 Mines.
> > Garden also needs a Public Space Port.
>
> > That would increase the initial investment, and leave population
> > vulnerable for capture if not defended.
>
> I thought about making the triad income depending on a small
> population already, but a small population won't matter and I use to
> have 50k colonists on every base to run a city, too.
>
> A triad base will always be a juicy target for attacks. Usually
> enemies will try to destroy one of such bases ASAP obviously. 50k
> colonists or less won't change the value of the triad bases
> significantly.
>
> We can collect those suggestions for the triad, of course. Magik said
> something about revamping the code and after playtesting, there may be
> a need for some change, too.
>
> We shall ask all active RCS players to give their input about the new
> triad code.
>
> Thriyon


well from my understandung the original problem was that the ship
hulls were too expensive, and to reduce them in cost would require a
chance to the racepak which rarely happens. so as an alternative to
that idea they came up with the triad. which seems to me to be not too
easy to obtain and very hard to defend. as for scaling, if the
orginial idea of hull costs were implemented, theres nothing an
opponent can do about that, with the triad an opponent could take out
one of the three bases to prevent it from occuring. so basically im
glad they went the triad, at least in this case the increased
production of money can be porevented should it be desired.

Proto
lets roll with it for awhile see what happens
 >> Stay informed about: New RCS Triad too strong 

I like Amaranthine idea 50k (or even better 100k) colonist and the
added building.

Even Rebel cantina who produce next to nothing need 100K colonist !
I would like the tria to use 100k per base as well.

Lord Lancelot
 >> Stay informed about: New RCS Triad too strong