Priest Protection Questions

Beolach wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I've never actually purchased protection from priests before. The two
> main reasons I never really went for it were that I tend to be much more
> miserly than I should, and purchasing protection from priests gets
> expensive FAST; and because I thought I read somewhere that protection
> from priests ran out after a certain number of turns, which really
> doesn't suit my style of play (I tend to play really slow; in my current
> game I'm already 53000+ turns in, and I haven't even gotten to Medusa).
> But now I was rereading the prst-343 spoiler, and it doesn't say
> anything about having a time-limit for protection, just for
> clairvoyance. So my first question: is the protection purchased from
> priests permanent?
>
> My second question: is it worth level-draining myself to make protection
> cheaper, with the drain life spell? I happen to have a drain-life
> spellbook in my current game, and I'm tempted to drain myself really low
> to make protection nice and cheep. What other consequences are there to
> draining levels? Will I lose HP & PP, and if so, how much?
>
> TIA,
> Beolach

Oh, third question: Is there anything else really worth spending money
on, once you're to the point where your pet(s) can easily kill
shopkeepers? If there isn't, somebody ought to come up w/ a few more
money-sink YANIs, just for diversity.

TIA again,
Beolach
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Beolach wrote:

>> So my first question: is the protection purchased from
>> priests permanent?

There are things you can do which will remove any protection you have, but
it doesn't have a time limit.

> Oh, third question: Is there anything else really worth spending money
> on, once you're to the point where your pet(s) can easily kill
> shopkeepers? If there isn't, somebody ought to come up w/ a few more
> money-sink YANIs, just for diversity.

I find clairvoyance is quite useful, although as you noted it does expire,
but I often try to buy a few thousand turns worth of clairvoyance before
entering Gehennom and that way you can easily use up any amount of money.
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In article <1154805142.253821.84050 DeleteThis @m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
sjdevnull DeleteThis @yahoo.com says...
> you might want to bribe a few demons ( less than 300 $ total).

There are only two bribable demons, and they can be bribed for $1 each.

--
"It's only possible to betray where loyalty is due," said Sandy.
"Well, wasn't it due to Miss Brodie?"
"Only up to a point," said Sandy.
- Muriel Spark
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On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 18:47:33 -0400, Rast wrote:

> In article <1154805142.253821.84050.RemoveThis@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
> sjdevnull.RemoveThis@yahoo.com says...
>> you might want to bribe a few demons ( less than 300 $ total).
>
> There are only two bribable demons, and they can be bribed for $1 each.

There are four. But Geryon and Dispater are rarely seen.

--
--------------===============<[ Ray Chason ]>===============--------------
The War on Terra is not meant to be won.
Delendae sunt RIAA, MPAA et Windoze
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In article <pan.2006.08.06.03.54.15.484846.RemoveThis@smart.net.SPAMMEN.VERBOTEN>,
rchason.RemoveThis@smart.net.SPAMMEN.VERBOTEN says...
> On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 18:47:33 -0400, Rast wrote:
>
> > In article <1154805142.253821.84050.RemoveThis@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
> > sjdevnull.RemoveThis@yahoo.com says...
> >> you might want to bribe a few demons ( less than 300 $ total).
> >
> > There are only two bribable demons, and they can be bribed for $1 each.
>
> There are four. But Geryon and Dispater are rarely seen.

Aren't they summoned hostile?

--
"It's only possible to betray where loyalty is due," said Sandy.
"Well, wasn't it due to Miss Brodie?"
"Only up to a point," said Sandy.
- Muriel Spark
 >> Stay informed about: Priest Protection Questions 

On Sun, 06 Aug 2006 11:09:19 -0400, Rast wrote:

> In article <pan.2006.08.06.03.54.15.484846 DeleteThis @smart.net.SPAMMEN.VERBOTEN>,
> rchason DeleteThis @smart.net.SPAMMEN.VERBOTEN says...
>> On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 18:47:33 -0400, Rast wrote:
>>
>> > In article <1154805142.253821.84050 DeleteThis @m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
>> > sjdevnull DeleteThis @yahoo.com says...
>> >> you might want to bribe a few demons ( less than 300 $ total).
>> >
>> > There are only two bribable demons, and they can be bribed for $1 each.
>>
>> There are four. But Geryon and Dispater are rarely seen.
>
> Aren't they summoned hostile?

I had Dispater take a bribe from me at least once. Granted, the incident
I remember was back in 3.1.something.

--
--------------===============<[ Ray Chason ]>===============--------------
The War on Terra is not meant to be won.
Delendae sunt RIAA, MPAA et Windoze
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On Sun, 06 Aug 2006 11:09:19 -0400, Rast wrote:

> In article <pan.2006.08.06.03.54.15.484846 RemoveThis @smart.net.SPAMMEN.VERBOTEN>,
> rchason RemoveThis @smart.net.SPAMMEN.VERBOTEN says...
>> On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 18:47:33 -0400, Rast wrote:
>>
>> > There are only two bribable demons, and they can be bribed for $1 each.
>>
>> There are four. But Geryon and Dispater are rarely seen.
>
> Aren't they summoned hostile?

I had Dispater take a bribe from me at least once. Granted, the incident
I remember was back in 3.1.something.

--
--------------===============<[ Ray Chason ]>===============--------------
The War on Terra is not meant to be won.
Delendae sunt RIAA, MPAA et Windoze
 >> Stay informed about: Priest Protection Questions 

In article <eb2oog$9ht$1@news.xmission.com>,
Beolach <beolach DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:

>Hello all,

>I've never actually purchased protection from priests before.

You're missing out on a great benefit.

> The two
>main reasons I never really went for it were that I tend to be much more
>miserly than I should,

Gold is virtually worthless in the game. It's only valuable for goods in
shops and protection.

> and purchasing protection from priests gets expensive FAST;

That's why I do the Minetown Protection Run (MPR) and get protection
while it's cheap.

> and because I thought I read somewhere that protection
>from priests ran out after a certain number of turns,

Nope. It's permanent unless you piss your god off.

> which really
>doesn't suit my style of play (I tend to play really slow; in my current
>game I'm already 53000+ turns in, and I haven't even gotten to Medusa).

No matter. In fact it'll help you because you have the AC bonus for all
of those turns.

> But now I was rereading the prst-343 spoiler, and it doesn't say
>anything about having a time-limit for protection, just for
>clairvoyance.

Right.

> So my first question: is the protection purchased from
>priests permanent?

Only angering your god or changing alignments (helm of opposite
alignment in both directions) drops protection.

>My second question: is it worth level-draining myself to make protection
>cheaper, with the drain life spell?

NO! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

There's always more money. The HP and PP you get from experience is
priceless.

1) Rob shops.
2) Mine out all vaults
3) Clear out Ft. Ludious
4) There's a ton of cash hidden in the blank spaces of every level.
So take a pickaxe and clear them out.
5) Have your pet kill one priest after getting protection. You get
your money back. Then go to another priest and buy more.
6) You can get protection directly from your god by continually
sacrificing and praying.

There is never a reason to go backwards on levels.

> I happen to have a drain-life
>spellbook in my current game, and I'm tempted to drain myself really low
>to make protection nice and cheep. What other consequences are there to
>draining levels? Will I lose HP & PP, and if so, how much?

Isn't 1 enough? Don't risk it.

BAJ
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Thanks for the answers, guys.

I don't know why I've had it stuck in my head that protection timed out;
if it doesn't have a time limit, it's MUCH more appealing to me.

As for level draining, after cleaning out Fort Ludios, I decided I
didn't need to drain any levels... and then I was Nurse dancing on
Medusa's island, and had a Vampire Lord spawn 3 squares away. Spent too
much time trying to kill it w/ /oMM (I'd forgotten all my spells, and I
hadn't reread them yet), and now I'm down to XPLvl 11 again (from around
15 before the Vamp Lord showed up).

Minetown hasn't had a Priest for quite a while now, since a rock-mole
ate a hole in the wall & my pet Silver D ran in & killed the Priest
while I was lugging some big heavy corpse to the altar. Haven't seen
any other priests in the dungeon, and now I've been down to Medusa's &
the Castle (Castle directly below Medusa's, and I fell through a
trapdoor). I know there's at least one more Priest, but I'm not sure
how far into Gehennom it is. I'm debating making a run for the Priest
now that I've been level drained, or rev-genociding Succubi for
power-leveling. I had been pretty worried about my AC, but I just went
back to my stash & enchanted all my armor, and dropped from ~-7 to ~-30
AC, so I'm not as worried now.

I'd really like to see some more money-sinks in nethack. Especially as
right now you never lose money more than temporarily, since you can
always go back & have your pet kill the shopkeeper/priest/oracle/etc.
that you gave your money to. I'm gonna try to think up some fun
money-sink YANIs... At the very least, bribing demons shouldn't be that
cheap (and what does bribing them do? Just make them peaceful?).

Thanks,
Beolach
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Beolach wrote:
> Thanks for the answers, guys.
>
> I don't know why I've had it stuck in my head that protection timed out;
> if it doesn't have a time limit, it's MUCH more appealing to me.
>
> As for level draining, after cleaning out Fort Ludios, I decided I
> didn't need to drain any levels... and then I was Nurse dancing on
> Medusa's island, and had a Vampire Lord spawn 3 squares away. Spent too
> much time trying to kill it w/ /oMM (I'd forgotten all my spells, and I
> hadn't reread them yet), and now I'm down to XPLvl 11 again (from around
> 15 before the Vamp Lord showed up).

Drink a couple !full healing.

> while I was lugging some big heavy corpse to the altar. Haven't seen
> any other priests in the dungeon, and now I've been down to Medusa's &
> the Castle (Castle directly below Medusa's, and I fell through a
> trapdoor). I know there's at least one more Priest, but I'm not sure
> how far into Gehennom it is.

He is on the level immediately below the Castle (the Valley).

> power-leveling. I had been pretty worried about my AC, but I just went
> back to my stash & enchanted all my armor, and dropped from ~-7 to ~-30
> AC, so I'm not as worried now.

-30 is sufficient for ascension. Obviously if you get more ?ea you
should read them, and donating to priests is still worthwile, but AC is
not a _top_ priority anymore.

> I'd really like to see some more money-sinks in nethack. Especially as
> right now you never lose money more than temporarily, since you can
> always go back & have your pet kill the shopkeeper/priest/oracle/etc.
> that you gave your money to.

If you kill the priest for $, you can't donate the money to him
again--gotta find another.

Clairvoyance from priests can be very nice in Gehennom.
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Beolach wrote:

> I'd really like to see some more money-sinks in
> nethack. Especially as right now you never lose
> money more than temporarily, since you can always
> go back & have your pet kill the
> shopkeeper/priest/oracle/etc. that you gave your
> money to. I'm gonna try to think up some fun
> money-sink YANIs...

Well, if damaged armor fell as damaged armor, say
from the owner polymorphing into a large monster,
instead of just disappearing from the game, there'd
be a real use for armorer shops, where you spent
money to have an armorer work on class-specific
armor -- an Elvish armorer to repair Elvish armor,
a Dwarvish armorer to repair Dwarvish armor, a human
armorer to repair ordinary armor, (maybe a glass
golem armorer to repair crystal plate mail?), an
Orcish armorer to repair Orcish armor. Who'd repair
dragon skin armor, though? A lich armorer?

Anyway, killing these guys to get your money back
would be a bad idea, you'd be losing your source of
armor repair. The shops would be fairly rare,
usually no more than two per game (and who'd want to
repair Orcish armor, anyway?), and deep enough that
carting (heavy) armor to them would be a PITA. But
because killing off the armorer (who'd start the
game broke, anyway) would be a bad idea, this would
be one possible money sink.

You could also have artificers, who'd produce some
non-artifact magical item without a wish, just for
lots and lots and lots of gold. Again, killing them
to get the gold back would do the PC more harm than
good.

FWIW
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I would say that it would be better just to create a new class of
monsters
(enhancers ) that can repair/enchant/charge your gear.
They would charge you actual money, not gems.
They should also be very high level, so that you can't kill them off
easily.

Problem with putting the capability with the shopkeepers (like slashem)
is that you can do the credit cloning trick to get infinite
enchant/charging.

They should also be rare. They should only get randomly generated when
a level is generated, and they should not leave a copse. So that no
amount
of create monster or monster summonning will create them,
or even by wasting a huge amount of time waiting on a level.

They would not be too unbalancing unless you found them at low level.
But that is like finding a wand of wishing at Dlevel 1. But you would
still
need to find the money.

-anandsr

Kent Paul Dolan wrote:
> Beolach wrote:
>
> > I'd really like to see some more money-sinks in
> > nethack. Especially as right now you never lose
> > money more than temporarily, since you can always
> > go back & have your pet kill the
> > shopkeeper/priest/oracle/etc. that you gave your
> > money to. I'm gonna try to think up some fun
> > money-sink YANIs...
>
> Well, if damaged armor fell as damaged armor, say
> from the owner polymorphing into a large monster,
> instead of just disappearing from the game, there'd
> be a real use for armorer shops, where you spent
> money to have an armorer work on class-specific
> armor -- an Elvish armorer to repair Elvish armor,
> a Dwarvish armorer to repair Dwarvish armor, a human
> armorer to repair ordinary armor, (maybe a glass
> golem armorer to repair crystal plate mail?), an
> Orcish armorer to repair Orcish armor. Who'd repair
> dragon skin armor, though? A lich armorer?
>
> Anyway, killing these guys to get your money back
> would be a bad idea, you'd be losing your source of
> armor repair. The shops would be fairly rare,
> usually no more than two per game (and who'd want to
> repair Orcish armor, anyway?), and deep enough that
> carting (heavy) armor to them would be a PITA. But
> because killing off the armorer (who'd start the
> game broke, anyway) would be a bad idea, this would
> be one possible money sink.
>
> You could also have artificers, who'd produce some
> non-artifact magical item without a wish, just for
> lots and lots and lots of gold. Again, killing them
> to get the gold back would do the PC more harm than
> good.
>
> FWIW
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[top posting rearranged]

anandsr21.RemoveThis@gmail.com wrote:
> Kent Paul Dolan wrote:
>> Beolach wrote:

>>> I'd really like to see some more money-sinks in
>>> nethack. Especially as right now you never lose
>>> money more than temporarily, since you can
>>> always go back & have your pet kill the
>>> shopkeeper/priest/oracle/etc. that you gave
>>> your money to. I'm gonna try to think up some
>>> fun money-sink YANIs...

>> Well, if damaged armor fell as damaged armor, say
>> from the owner polymorphing into a large monster,
>> instead of just disappearing from the game,
>> there'd be a real use for armorer shops, where
>> you spent money to have an armorer work on
>> class-specific armor -- an Elvish armorer to
>> repair Elvish armor, a Dwarvish armorer to repair
>> Dwarvish armor, a human armorer to repair
>> ordinary armor, (maybe a glass golem armorer to
>> repair crystal plate mail?), an Orcish armorer to
>> repair Orcish armor. Who'd repair dragon skin
>> armor, though? A lich armorer?

>> Anyway, killing these guys to get your money back
>> would be a bad idea, you'd be losing your source
>> of armor repair. The shops would be fairly rare,
>> usually no more than two per game (and who'd want
>> to repair Orcish armor, anyway?), and deep enough
>> that carting (heavy) armor to them would be a
>> PITA. But because killing off the armorer (who'd
>> start the game broke, anyway) would be a bad
>> idea, this would be one possible money sink.

> I would say that it would be better just to create
> a new class of monsters (enhancers ) that can
> repair/enchant/charge your gear. They would
> charge you actual money, not gems. They should
> also be very high level, so that you can't kill
> them off easily.

But would they vanish away, like nurses, or hang
around forever, like peaceful hobgoblins?

> Problem with putting the capability with the
> shopkeepers (like slashem) is that you can do the
> credit cloning trick to get infinite
> enchant/charging.

Since armorer shops would be separately implemented
from (say) armor shops, there's no need to repeat
the code that makes credit cloning possible: pay the
armorer directly, not by dropping gold on the floor.

[It helps to remember the source code history of
dropping gold on the floor to gain credit. It was
added so that PCs with teleportitus could safely
pick up items in a shop without danger of
teleporting out while in debt to the shopkeeper,
by "prepaying" for that eventuality, only to be
able to drop the items and pick up the money, with
no harm on either side.

Credit cloning fell out of that inadvertantly,
because pets could (already) also pick up the
money, and oh by the way carry money out of shops.

Since the PC wouldn't be picking up goods in an
armorer shop, which would have no goods for sale
(and so could be as small as a vault, or better
yet, even be a closet, with transactions done
"over the counter" from the door), there would be
no need for the "credit" feature in those shops.]

>> You could also have artificers, who'd produce
>> some non-artifact magical item without a wish,
>> just for lots and lots and lots of gold. Again,
>> killing them to get the gold back would do the PC
>> more harm than good.

The intent here was that if for example the PC was
on DLVL 26 without finding an oilskin sack or a bag
of holding, s/he could pay an artificer to create
one "out of the air". This should cost ridiculously
more than the item price in a shop, because if
there'd been some in the game, the shopkeepers would
be selling them. What the PC is buying isn't so much
the item per se, as it is a reversal of bad luck,
which _should_ be expensive, perhaps even so
expensive (50Kz?) that more than one such
transaction per game is unlikely.

[unclear in the original what this was answering]

> They should also be rare. They should only get
> randomly generated when a level is generated, and
> they should not leave a copse. So that no amount
> of create monster or monster summonning will
> create them, or even by wasting a huge amount of
> time waiting on a level.

Well, you and I have different visions, I just want
someone who can put armor back to its intact state
after it breaks from polymorphing

[and maybe, just maybe, also repair rusting,
reweave or patch fire or rot damage (which would
then allow repairs to stuff beyond just armor,
like sacks, that survive rot and fire attacks)]

while you want someone who can go beyond original
quality, and, presumably, from the name you use,
enchant stuff too. That would change the game
balance a little, since "enchanting" stuff is a time
consuming part of the game and rarely possible to
the full desired extent.

Armorers would be a bit less unbalancing, just
allowing in some rare circumstances that a bit of
the bad luck the game deals out with such glee could
be reversed.

> They would not be too unbalancing unless you found
> them at low level. But that is like finding a
> wand of wishing at Dlevel 1. But you would still
> need to find the money.

Well, you probably wouldn't have armor at a low
level (and early in the game) that you'd be willing
to pay heavily to have repaired; most early armor is
easily replaced. Also, polymorph traps are not seen
early in the game.

HTH

xanthian.
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