Prestige Classes and Specialists

On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 16:34:24 -0000, "Symbol" <jb70.TakeThisOut@talk21.com> wrote:
>"Ken Andrews" <gobble.TakeThisOut@degook.com> wrote in message
>> Why are specialist mages (Diviner, Evoker, Necromancer...) not
>> prestige classes? Wouldn't it make better sense to have
>> specialization as such? I.e., you hit Level 3 and you can optionally
>> specialize.
>
>[snip]
>
>As presented the pros are that you can increase your level of specialism
>if you want (by taking it multiple times). That's not a bad idea but
>perhaps a PrC for specialists might achieve it more elegantly

Which this is, a PrC for specialists. And yes, I specifically
designed it so you could double- or triple-specialize, with the
drawback that you'd be hosing more and more of your other spells.

Keep in mind, though, that you can also take it for two (or three)
separate schools, gaining a DC+2 for each of them, rather than
repeating it for the one school.


>On the down side what happens to a Wizard who has been casting spells in
>schools now in opposition to his specialism? Does he forget how to use the
>spells (as easily)? That seems pretty clumsy to me.

He's not really forgetting, he's just becoming more focused and, in
effect, finding it harder to think in the old way. Consider someone
who's specializing in Plasma Physics. After a while, common, everyday
ballistics becomes something he has to think harder about than it used
to be, even to do the simple things.


>Equally "one level" PrCs are bad design. It should be done with the
>standard guidelines in mind (5/10 levels).

Doing it as a one-level PrC wasn't my favourite choice, either. But
at the same time, how would you convert specialization into even a
5-level PrC without 1) adding a whole lot of extraneous garbage that
makes it quite different (rather than my somewhat different) from
current specialization, 2) rendering it harder to get into epic level
Wizard / Sorcerer PrC classes, or 3) making it effectively impossible
to double- or triple-specialize?

Another possibility is to do it as a 3-level PrC, a la the Racial and
Paragon PrCs. But again, it severely impacts the clarity of the
design, as you have to add a lot of fluff to make it cover 3 full
levels, and it adversely impacts epics and further specialization.

Of course, by the fact that you can take it multiple times, and use
those 2 or 3 times to further focus yourself, effectively it *is* a
3-level PrC. Each time you take it, you're gaining a further DC+2,
Will+2, and hosing another 2 schools. What's the real difference
between writing it as a 3-level PrC, where each level you select a
school (same or different) and choose two more victim schools, versus
simply having it as a 1-level PrC that you can take 3 times?

(Maybe the above *is* a valid solution. Simply make it a 3-level PrC
which, each time you advance in it, you select a school you've taken
Spell Focus for, and you choose two schools to hose. The drawback to
doing it as the 3-level is that it gets rid of the multi-classing
drawback that came along with the 1-level version. {The 1-level
version, if you take the PrC multiple times, you start taking XP hits
because of having too many classes too far apart.})


>You can't specialize until at least 3rd level. I don't think that's an
>especially important change balance wise but depending on your individual
>concept of a specialist Wizard could make more or less sense.

In real life, you can't specialize in anything until after you've
spent a bit of time learning more general forms. You can't specialize
in Geometry until after you've learned addition and subtraction, and
you can't specialize in Non-Euclidean Geometry until you've learned
boring old Plane Geometry.


>What are you hoping to gain by making the change exactly?

A little more consistency.

Also, I don't like the idea of other schools being absolutely blocked;
it makes no real sense to me. I prefer that other schools become
*harder* to use as you become more focused. You focus on Physics,
then Biology, although another branch of Science, becomes harder for
you to work in for the simple reason that your training now focuses on
Physics studies, not Biological studies.

As a Prestige Class, specialization fits in better with building a
character than it does as something you do at first level (to me,
anyway). Now, in one way this doesn't fit with Sorcerers. With
Sorcerers, being specialized at first level fits better than it does
with Wizards. It reflects simply having a talent for a specific
branch of arcane magic. Perhaps the solution to that is to make the
requirement be "either the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells OR
the ability to cast arcane spells without memorization".



Hmm. Taking the above thoughts, we'd wind up with something like
this:

Magical Specialist

Hit Die
D4

Requirements
To qualify to become a Magical Specialist, a character must fulfil all
of the following criteria: Spell Focus, Knowledge (Arcana) modifier of
+5, and either the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells or the
ability to spontaneously cast arcane spells.

Class Skills
The class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha),
Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge
(all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), and
Spellcraft (Int).

Skill Points gained at each level
2 + Int modifier.

Class Features

Weapon and Armour Proficiency
No proficiencies with weapons or armour are gained with this prestige
class.

BAB, saves, and spells

Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special Spells per day
1 0 0 0 2 Specialist +1 level of
existing arcane class
2 1 0 0 3 Specialist +1 level of
existing arcane class
3 1 1 1 3 Specialist +1 level of
existing arcane class

Spells per Day

When this prestige class is taken, the character gains new spells per
day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level
in the arcane casting class that qualifies him for this prestige
class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of
that class would have gained.

Specialist

Each time a level in this prestige class is taken, the character
selects a school for which he has the feat Spell Focus. The character
can now memorize one extra spell per level per day of the selected
school. In addition, he gains a +2 bonus to Spellcraft checks to
learn spells of the selected school (a bonus that stacks with prior
selections, if any), and a DC+2 modifier to saves others make against
the selected school (again, a bonus that stacks with prior selections,
if any).

At the same time, he must choose two schools (one, if he is focusing
on Divination) which are now opposed schools. These schools must be
ones that have not been previously chosen. He will take a -4 penalty
to Spellcraft checks to learn spells of the chosen opposed schools.
They gain no penalty to their DC.

Spells of the opposed schools can still be memorized and cast, but in
order to cast them successfully, a DC (25 + spell level^2)
Concentration check must be made.



So, you're right, it can be done as a 3-level Prestige Class. I
suppose you could increase it to 5-level if you wanted (after all, if
you're a Diviner you'd still have 4 more schools to burn), but I think
it wouldn't be necessary.

On Tue, 14 Nov 2006 16:34:24 -0000, "Symbol" <jb70.TakeThisOut@talk21.com> wrote:
>"Ken Andrews" <gobble.TakeThisOut@degook.com> wrote in message
>> Why are specialist mages (Diviner, Evoker, Necromancer...) not
>> prestige classes? Wouldn't it make better sense to have
>> specialization as such? I.e., you hit Level 3 and you can optionally
>> specialize.
>
>[snip]
>
>As presented the pros are that you can increase your level of specialism
>if you want (by taking it multiple times). That's not a bad idea but
>perhaps a PrC for specialists might achieve it more elegantly

Which this is, a PrC for specialists. And yes, I specifically
designed it so you could double- or triple-specialize, with the
drawback that you'd be hosing more and more of your other spells.

Keep in mind, though, that you can also take it for two (or three)
separate schools, gaining a DC+2 for each of them, rather than
repeating it for the one school.


>On the down side what happens to a Wizard who has been casting spells in
>schools now in opposition to his specialism? Does he forget how to use the
>spells (as easily)? That seems pretty clumsy to me.

He's not really forgetting, he's just becoming more focused and, in
effect, finding it harder to think in the old way. Consider someone
who's specializing in Plasma Physics. After a while, common, everyday
ballistics becomes something he has to think harder about than it used
to be, even to do the simple things.


>Equally "one level" PrCs are bad design. It should be done with the
>standard guidelines in mind (5/10 levels).

Doing it as a one-level PrC wasn't my favourite choice, either. But
at the same time, how would you convert specialization into even a
5-level PrC without 1) adding a whole lot of extraneous garbage that
makes it quite different (rather than my somewhat different) from
current specialization, 2) rendering it harder to get into epic level
Wizard / Sorcerer PrC classes, or 3) making it effectively impossible
to double- or triple-specialize?

Another possibility is to do it as a 3-level PrC, a la the Racial and
Paragon PrCs. But again, it severely impacts the clarity of the
design, as you have to add a lot of fluff to make it cover 3 full
levels, and it adversely impacts epics and further specialization.

Of course, by the fact that you can take it multiple times, and use
those 2 or 3 times to further focus yourself, effectively it *is* a
3-level PrC. Each time you take it, you're gaining a further DC+2,
Will+2, and hosing another 2 schools. What's the real difference
between writing it as a 3-level PrC, where each level you select a
school (same or different) and choose two more victim schools, versus
simply having it as a 1-level PrC that you can take 3 times?

(Maybe the above *is* a valid solution. Simply make it a 3-level PrC
which, each time you advance in it, you select a school you've taken
Spell Focus for, and you choose two schools to hose. The drawback to
doing it as the 3-level is that it gets rid of the multi-classing
drawback that came along with the 1-level version. {The 1-level
version, if you take the PrC multiple times, you start taking XP hits
because of having too many classes too far apart.})


>You can't specialize until at least 3rd level. I don't think that's an
>especially important change balance wise but depending on your individual
>concept of a specialist Wizard could make more or less sense.

In real life, you can't specialize in anything until after you've
spent a bit of time learning more general forms. You can't specialize
in Geometry until after you've learned addition and subtraction, and
you can't specialize in Non-Euclidean Geometry until you've learned
boring old Plane Geometry.


>What are you hoping to gain by making the change exactly?

A little more consistency.

Also, I don't like the idea of other schools being absolutely blocked;
it makes no real sense to me. I prefer that other schools become
*harder* to use as you become more focused. You focus on Physics,
then Biology, although another branch of Science, becomes harder for
you to work in for the simple reason that your training now focuses on
Physics studies, not Biological studies.

As a Prestige Class, specialization fits in better with building a
character than it does as something you do at first level (to me,
anyway). Now, in one way this doesn't fit with Sorcerers. With
Sorcerers, being specialized at first level fits better than it does
with Wizards. It reflects simply having a talent for a specific
branch of arcane magic. Perhaps the solution to that is to make the
requirement be "either the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells OR
the ability to cast arcane spells without memorization".



Hmm. Taking the above thoughts, we'd wind up with something like
this:

Magical Specialist

Hit Die
D4

Requirements
To qualify to become a Magical Specialist, a character must fulfil all
of the following criteria: Spell Focus, Knowledge (Arcana) modifier of
+5, and either the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells or the
ability to spontaneously cast arcane spells.

Class Skills
The class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha),
Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge
(all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), and
Spellcraft (Int).

Skill Points gained at each level
2 + Int modifier.

Class Features

Weapon and Armour Proficiency
No proficiencies with weapons or armour are gained with this prestige
class.

BAB, saves, and spells

Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special Spells per day
1 0 0 0 2 Specialist +1 level of
existing arcane class
2 1 0 0 3 Specialist +1 level of
existing arcane class
3 1 1 1 3 Specialist +1 level of
existing arcane class

Spells per Day

When this prestige class is taken, the character gains new spells per
day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level
in the arcane casting class that qualifies him for this prestige
class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of
that class would have gained.

Specialist

Each time a level in this prestige class is taken, the character
selects a school for which he has the feat Spell Focus. The character
can now memorize one extra spell per level per day of the selected
school. In addition, he gains a +2 bonus to Spellcraft checks to
learn spells of the selected school (a bonus that stacks with prior
selections, if any), and a DC+2 modifier to saves others make against
the selected school (again, a bonus that stacks with prior selections,
if any).

At the same time, he must choose two schools (one, if he is focusing
on Divination) which are now opposed schools. These schools must be
ones that have not been previously chosen. He will take a -4 penalty
to Spellcraft checks to learn spells of the chosen opposed schools.
They gain no penalty to their DC.

Spells of the opposed schools can still be memorized and cast, but in
order to cast them successfully, a DC (25 + spell level^2)
Concentration check must be made.



So, you're right, it can be done as a 3-level Prestige Class. I
suppose you could increase it to 5-level if you wanted (after all, if
you're a Diviner you'd still have 4 more schools to burn), but I think
it wouldn't be necessary.