 |
|
 |
|
Next: FS in VA Galaga mini cab and more
|
| Author |
Message |
External

Since: Apr 09, 2006 Posts: 708
|
(Msg. 1) Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:15 pm
Post subject: Online activation and greed, or why I'm not buying FSX on release Archived from groups: alt>games>microsoft>flight-sim (more info?)
|
|
|
I only learnt of the requirement of online activation with FSX today. I
guess I'm not too surprised. Yesterday I learnt that the inital release
of FSX will only ship with the Max Tools, not Gmax. Presumably Gmax for
FSX is coming later (though my understanding is that Autodesk is doing
their best to encourage people into buying Max, has end of lifed Gmax
and had to be persuaded to continue with Gmax for FSX given its no
longer offered for any other piece of software. So if I never see Gmax
for FSX again I won't be too surprised at the development). These 2
things have put me off buying FSX now and a new machine in the next few
months.
Gmax being yanked has put me off learning to 3D model for an R/C flight
sim called Realflight G3. There are legal ways around this now in the
form of other cheaper software, but if you don't want ot jump through
hoops and aren't willing to pirate it's messy and difficult. I think
this is an awful move by Autodesk by the way. They owed us nothing
until they got people hooked on using their "free" product, then
promptly yanked it to replace it with a very expensive one. I could
compare this behaviour with an illegal industry but I'm trying to make
sure nothing I say here is libelous.
There are a lot of weak arguments going on around why activation is
bad. I wanted to make a stronger case. In my honest opinion software
makers have well and truely crossed the line trying to protect revenue.
If you think I'm a software piracy apologist, or a cheapskate, I can
show you 3 draws full of original current computer games, and a large
storage container of old folded up CD boxes (again all orginal and paid
for). In my life I'd conservatively say I've spent around AUD20k on
software and only a little less again on hardware.
Apart from the hassle, activation basically turns FSX into a rental
game. As soon as Microsoft decide they're no longer supporting it,
you'll no longer be able to reinstall it. If they promise otherwise you
only have their word on that. On the other hand if you have Flight Sim
95 or 98 right now, and still have hardware that will run it, there's
nothing to stop you from re-installing. Any on CD copy protection will
still work (Of course I acknowledge 10 year old copy protection isn't
going to be hard to defeat if you're so inclined). This will not be the
case for FSX in 10 years time. Not long after MS ship FS11 or if
they're generous, FS12, you'll find yourself unable to activate the no
longer supported FSX. If MS get taken over or go bankrupt (unlikely
right now, but big business can suddenly change) you won't be able to
activate. If they sell of FSX, you may not be able to activate. No one
but the owner has the right to activate the product for you unless
those rights are assigned by the owner. There is no such thing as
competing 3rd party activation and the legal rights to do so can be
sold or discarded if a company gets in trouble. THIS is why I don't buy
the payware 3rd party addons for FS2004 (from smaller less financially
secure companies than MS). THIS is why I can't bring myself to buy FSX
right now.
Can you imagine what it would be like if aircraft manufacturers did
this. (Perhaps they already are with aircraft software these days). All
those air museums that actually fly aircraft would sit idle because no
machine over 7 years old would fly. Getting back to FSX, even if the
copyright on the software expires, activation will prevent its use.
So lets say that a no-activation crack comes out. I have to break the
law to use the flight sim in a few years? No thanks. Typically enforced
or not, explain to me why I should risk time in prison and/or financial
ruin over any piece of software? Perhaps I'm paranoid but I can't
believe people openly and freely talk about using nocds and other anti
piracy circumvention tools on the forums. Any time in the near future a
gung ho law enforcement official may decide to collect information from
the groups and make an example out of a lot of people.
Just remember this any time someones tells you activation is only to be
feared by pirates or is better than CD/DVD copy protection. This is
true of any DRM based copy protection. DRM and activation on
games/movies/music/books are nothing more than a rental scheme with an
enforced return date and conditions that you cannot know fully in
advance. Each time you install or other conditions are met (eg. change
computer parts), you must go back to the original company for
permission to use the product. This may be refused at any time for a
variety of reasons. THAT is not FUD, that is fact.
Another thing. Right now I can download a multitude of free aircraft,
scenery and utilities for FS2004. Now where's the insentive to continue
freeware development? Unless Gmax for FSX is released you're going to
have trouble using the latest tools for free. 3DSMax cost around US4k
last time I looked - no problem if you sell lots of aircraft but I
don't want to try to do that. If I do develop an aircraft for FSX they
may not work in the following version, and as described above FSX
actviation may disappear. Why am I going to spend the time and effort
learning to 3D model and build for FSX to create something with a shelf
life the length of supported activation? What's worse by giving away my
work I'm making a product with these restrictions sold by a company
that does this to its customers more attractive to others. I simply
can't justify it.
The flight sim industry isn't moving forward as claimed at the AVSIM
conference. This kind of greed and stupidity will eventually see flight
sim become less and less mainstream, more arcadish, and more expensive.
People will press on for quite some time and we'll see some good stuff
as features of FSX are taken advantage of. However in 10 years we'll be
living in a world where it costs a lot to make freeware for such a
proprietary product, and your old software no longer installs. DRM,
activation and expensive development tools are a cancer that will eat
away at the hobby. They've basically forgotten what made Flight Sim the
franchise it is today - the open architecture. Open to anyone with time
and a willingness to learn (as opposed to an elite who can afford it).
This really upsets me. I want FSX. I want things to move forward. I
don't mind paying some money for it, but you can bet I'm not going to
spend 2-3k on a machine, money on the software for each computer I want
to use the sim on, 4k on development tools, and another 4k on addons
for flying and development. I'm now thinking of buying a decent machine
while I still can that will run FS2004 as smoothly as possible, and
have no idea where to put my development effort. >> Stay informed about: Online activation and greed, or why I'm not buying FSX on .. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |  |
External

Since: Aug 30, 2006 Posts: 23
|
(Msg. 2) Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:58 pm
Post subject: Re: Online activation and greed, or why I'm not buying FSX on release [Login to view extended thread Info.] Imported from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |  |
External

Since: May 09, 2006 Posts: 63
|
(Msg. 3) Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Online activation and greed, or why I'm not buying FSX on release [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
Hi Sammy
Not sure I understand how you equate the desire to protect oneself from
being the victim of theft, with greed.
IMO, Activation: much ado about nothing.
Justin
"Sammy" <syousef DeleteThis @bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:1159395300.641362.24820@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> I only learnt of the requirement of online activation with FSX today. I
> guess I'm not too surprised. Yesterday I learnt that the inital release
> of FSX will only ship with the Max Tools, not Gmax. Presumably Gmax for
> FSX is coming later (though my understanding is that Autodesk is doing
> their best to encourage people into buying Max, has end of lifed Gmax
> and had to be persuaded to continue with Gmax for FSX given its no
> longer offered for any other piece of software. So if I never see Gmax
> for FSX again I won't be too surprised at the development). These 2
> things have put me off buying FSX now and a new machine in the next few
> months.
>
> Gmax being yanked has put me off learning to 3D model for an R/C flight
> sim called Realflight G3. There are legal ways around this now in the
> form of other cheaper software, but if you don't want ot jump through
> hoops and aren't willing to pirate it's messy and difficult. I think
> this is an awful move by Autodesk by the way. They owed us nothing
> until they got people hooked on using their "free" product, then
> promptly yanked it to replace it with a very expensive one. I could
> compare this behaviour with an illegal industry but I'm trying to make
> sure nothing I say here is libelous.
>
> There are a lot of weak arguments going on around why activation is
> bad. I wanted to make a stronger case. In my honest opinion software
> makers have well and truely crossed the line trying to protect revenue.
> If you think I'm a software piracy apologist, or a cheapskate, I can
> show you 3 draws full of original current computer games, and a large
> storage container of old folded up CD boxes (again all orginal and paid
> for). In my life I'd conservatively say I've spent around AUD20k on
> software and only a little less again on hardware.
>
> Apart from the hassle, activation basically turns FSX into a rental
> game. As soon as Microsoft decide they're no longer supporting it,
> you'll no longer be able to reinstall it. If they promise otherwise you
> only have their word on that. On the other hand if you have Flight Sim
> 95 or 98 right now, and still have hardware that will run it, there's
> nothing to stop you from re-installing. Any on CD copy protection will
> still work (Of course I acknowledge 10 year old copy protection isn't
> going to be hard to defeat if you're so inclined). This will not be the
> case for FSX in 10 years time. Not long after MS ship FS11 or if
> they're generous, FS12, you'll find yourself unable to activate the no
> longer supported FSX. If MS get taken over or go bankrupt (unlikely
> right now, but big business can suddenly change) you won't be able to
> activate. If they sell of FSX, you may not be able to activate. No one
> but the owner has the right to activate the product for you unless
> those rights are assigned by the owner. There is no such thing as
> competing 3rd party activation and the legal rights to do so can be
> sold or discarded if a company gets in trouble. THIS is why I don't buy
> the payware 3rd party addons for FS2004 (from smaller less financially
> secure companies than MS). THIS is why I can't bring myself to buy FSX
> right now.
>
> Can you imagine what it would be like if aircraft manufacturers did
> this. (Perhaps they already are with aircraft software these days). All
> those air museums that actually fly aircraft would sit idle because no
> machine over 7 years old would fly. Getting back to FSX, even if the
> copyright on the software expires, activation will prevent its use.
>
> So lets say that a no-activation crack comes out. I have to break the
> law to use the flight sim in a few years? No thanks. Typically enforced
> or not, explain to me why I should risk time in prison and/or financial
> ruin over any piece of software? Perhaps I'm paranoid but I can't
> believe people openly and freely talk about using nocds and other anti
> piracy circumvention tools on the forums. Any time in the near future a
> gung ho law enforcement official may decide to collect information from
> the groups and make an example out of a lot of people.
>
> Just remember this any time someones tells you activation is only to be
> feared by pirates or is better than CD/DVD copy protection. This is
> true of any DRM based copy protection. DRM and activation on
> games/movies/music/books are nothing more than a rental scheme with an
> enforced return date and conditions that you cannot know fully in
> advance. Each time you install or other conditions are met (eg. change
> computer parts), you must go back to the original company for
> permission to use the product. This may be refused at any time for a
> variety of reasons. THAT is not FUD, that is fact.
>
> Another thing. Right now I can download a multitude of free aircraft,
> scenery and utilities for FS2004. Now where's the insentive to continue
> freeware development? Unless Gmax for FSX is released you're going to
> have trouble using the latest tools for free. 3DSMax cost around US4k
> last time I looked - no problem if you sell lots of aircraft but I
> don't want to try to do that. If I do develop an aircraft for FSX they
> may not work in the following version, and as described above FSX
> actviation may disappear. Why am I going to spend the time and effort
> learning to 3D model and build for FSX to create something with a shelf
> life the length of supported activation? What's worse by giving away my
> work I'm making a product with these restrictions sold by a company
> that does this to its customers more attractive to others. I simply
> can't justify it.
>
> The flight sim industry isn't moving forward as claimed at the AVSIM
> conference. This kind of greed and stupidity will eventually see flight
> sim become less and less mainstream, more arcadish, and more expensive.
> People will press on for quite some time and we'll see some good stuff
> as features of FSX are taken advantage of. However in 10 years we'll be
> living in a world where it costs a lot to make freeware for such a
> proprietary product, and your old software no longer installs. DRM,
> activation and expensive development tools are a cancer that will eat
> away at the hobby. They've basically forgotten what made Flight Sim the
> franchise it is today - the open architecture. Open to anyone with time
> and a willingness to learn (as opposed to an elite who can afford it).
>
> This really upsets me. I want FSX. I want things to move forward. I
> don't mind paying some money for it, but you can bet I'm not going to
> spend 2-3k on a machine, money on the software for each computer I want
> to use the sim on, 4k on development tools, and another 4k on addons
> for flying and development. I'm now thinking of buying a decent machine
> while I still can that will run FS2004 as smoothly as possible, and
> have no idea where to put my development effort. >> Stay informed about: Online activation and greed, or why I'm not buying FSX on .. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |  |
External

Since: Oct 10, 2005 Posts: 1366
|
(Msg. 4) Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Online activation and greed, or why I'm not buying FSX on release [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
I can see some valid points in all that. I'm not sure what the answer is
though.
Crash Lander
--
I'm not always right,
But I'm never wrong!
"Sammy" <syousef.RemoveThis@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:1159395300.641362.24820@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>I only learnt of the requirement of online activation with FSX today. I
> guess I'm not too surprised. Yesterday I learnt that the inital release
> of FSX will only ship with the Max Tools, not Gmax. Presumably Gmax for
> FSX is coming later (though my understanding is that Autodesk is doing
> their best to encourage people into buying Max, has end of lifed Gmax
> and had to be persuaded to continue with Gmax for FSX given its no
> longer offered for any other piece of software. So if I never see Gmax
> for FSX again I won't be too surprised at the development). These 2
> things have put me off buying FSX now and a new machine in the next few
> months.
>
> Gmax being yanked has put me off learning to 3D model for an R/C flight
> sim called Realflight G3. There are legal ways around this now in the
> form of other cheaper software, but if you don't want ot jump through
> hoops and aren't willing to pirate it's messy and difficult. I think
> this is an awful move by Autodesk by the way. They owed us nothing
> until they got people hooked on using their "free" product, then
> promptly yanked it to replace it with a very expensive one. I could
> compare this behaviour with an illegal industry but I'm trying to make
> sure nothing I say here is libelous.
>
> There are a lot of weak arguments going on around why activation is
> bad. I wanted to make a stronger case. In my honest opinion software
> makers have well and truely crossed the line trying to protect revenue.
> If you think I'm a software piracy apologist, or a cheapskate, I can
> show you 3 draws full of original current computer games, and a large
> storage container of old folded up CD boxes (again all orginal and paid
> for). In my life I'd conservatively say I've spent around AUD20k on
> software and only a little less again on hardware.
>
> Apart from the hassle, activation basically turns FSX into a rental
> game. As soon as Microsoft decide they're no longer supporting it,
> you'll no longer be able to reinstall it. If they promise otherwise you
> only have their word on that. On the other hand if you have Flight Sim
> 95 or 98 right now, and still have hardware that will run it, there's
> nothing to stop you from re-installing. Any on CD copy protection will
> still work (Of course I acknowledge 10 year old copy protection isn't
> going to be hard to defeat if you're so inclined). This will not be the
> case for FSX in 10 years time. Not long after MS ship FS11 or if
> they're generous, FS12, you'll find yourself unable to activate the no
> longer supported FSX. If MS get taken over or go bankrupt (unlikely
> right now, but big business can suddenly change) you won't be able to
> activate. If they sell of FSX, you may not be able to activate. No one
> but the owner has the right to activate the product for you unless
> those rights are assigned by the owner. There is no such thing as
> competing 3rd party activation and the legal rights to do so can be
> sold or discarded if a company gets in trouble. THIS is why I don't buy
> the payware 3rd party addons for FS2004 (from smaller less financially
> secure companies than MS). THIS is why I can't bring myself to buy FSX
> right now.
>
> Can you imagine what it would be like if aircraft manufacturers did
> this. (Perhaps they already are with aircraft software these days). All
> those air museums that actually fly aircraft would sit idle because no
> machine over 7 years old would fly. Getting back to FSX, even if the
> copyright on the software expires, activation will prevent its use.
>
> So lets say that a no-activation crack comes out. I have to break the
> law to use the flight sim in a few years? No thanks. Typically enforced
> or not, explain to me why I should risk time in prison and/or financial
> ruin over any piece of software? Perhaps I'm paranoid but I can't
> believe people openly and freely talk about using nocds and other anti
> piracy circumvention tools on the forums. Any time in the near future a
> gung ho law enforcement official may decide to collect information from
> the groups and make an example out of a lot of people.
>
> Just remember this any time someones tells you activation is only to be
> feared by pirates or is better than CD/DVD copy protection. This is
> true of any DRM based copy protection. DRM and activation on
> games/movies/music/books are nothing more than a rental scheme with an
> enforced return date and conditions that you cannot know fully in
> advance. Each time you install or other conditions are met (eg. change
> computer parts), you must go back to the original company for
> permission to use the product. This may be refused at any time for a
> variety of reasons. THAT is not FUD, that is fact.
>
> Another thing. Right now I can download a multitude of free aircraft,
> scenery and utilities for FS2004. Now where's the insentive to continue
> freeware development? Unless Gmax for FSX is released you're going to
> have trouble using the latest tools for free. 3DSMax cost around US4k
> last time I looked - no problem if you sell lots of aircraft but I
> don't want to try to do that. If I do develop an aircraft for FSX they
> may not work in the following version, and as described above FSX
> actviation may disappear. Why am I going to spend the time and effort
> learning to 3D model and build for FSX to create something with a shelf
> life the length of supported activation? What's worse by giving away my
> work I'm making a product with these restrictions sold by a company
> that does this to its customers more attractive to others. I simply
> can't justify it.
>
> The flight sim industry isn't moving forward as claimed at the AVSIM
> conference. This kind of greed and stupidity will eventually see flight
> sim become less and less mainstream, more arcadish, and more expensive.
> People will press on for quite some time and we'll see some good stuff
> as features of FSX are taken advantage of. However in 10 years we'll be
> living in a world where it costs a lot to make freeware for such a
> proprietary product, and your old software no longer installs. DRM,
> activation and expensive development tools are a cancer that will eat
> away at the hobby. They've basically forgotten what made Flight Sim the
> franchise it is today - the open architecture. Open to anyone with time
> and a willingness to learn (as opposed to an elite who can afford it).
>
> This really upsets me. I want FSX. I want things to move forward. I
> don't mind paying some money for it, but you can bet I'm not going to
> spend 2-3k on a machine, money on the software for each computer I want
> to use the sim on, 4k on development tools, and another 4k on addons
> for flying and development. I'm now thinking of buying a decent machine
> while I still can that will run FS2004 as smoothly as possible, and
> have no idea where to put my development effort.
> >> Stay informed about: Online activation and greed, or why I'm not buying FSX on .. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |  |
External

Since: May 09, 2006 Posts: 63
|
(Msg. 5) Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Online activation and greed, or why I'm not buying FSX on release [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
OK, upon further reading, the greed was directed at Autodesk, who took
over the previous company, so they sort of inherited gMax. But they
have committed to supporting it through FSX' lifetime, which will be
presumably three years or so. There are alternatives, most notably
Abacus' Flightsim Design Studio, which I'm sure is being updated for
FSX. Also, I'm sure that MS will come up with a gMax replacement when
the time comes.
Further on activation, those scenarios you laid out are pretty far
out--not impossible, but highly unlikely. Having gone the through the
activation process with two betas, I can assure you that the process is
hardly excruciating, basically clicking a button.
Concerning the "philosophy" of activation, I'm on the publisher's side
on this one, being a small one myself. Nothing is more frustrating and
irritating to than to spend countless hours creating a piece of
intellectual property or value-added product, while in my case
supporting a family, only to find one's hard work show up on usenet or a
pirate site. Pirates--those who make stuff available, as well as those
who use pirated software--are the lowest scumbags on the planet, nothing
more than thieves. It is they who make activation necessary in order
for publishers to mitigate their losses.
Activation generally works, so it is used by nearly every major
publisher today. And I'm sure all those publishers would love to hear
of better alternatives.
If you have any better ideas, we're all ears.
Justin
"FSGenesis" <nope RemoveThis @notgonnadoit.com> wrote in message
news:QkDSg.228514$PM1.40476@fe04.news.easynews.com:
> Hi Sammy
>
> Not sure I understand how you equate the desire to protect oneself from
> being the victim of theft, with greed.
>
> IMO, Activation: much ado about nothing.
>
> Justin
>
> "Sammy" <syousef RemoveThis @bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
> news:1159395300.641362.24820@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
>
> > I only learnt of the requirement of online activation with FSX today.
> I
> > guess I'm not too surprised. Yesterday I learnt that the inital
> release
> > of FSX will only ship with the Max Tools, not Gmax. Presumably Gmax
> for
> > FSX is coming later (though my understanding is that Autodesk is doing
> > their best to encourage people into buying Max, has end of lifed Gmax
> > and had to be persuaded to continue with Gmax for FSX given its no
> > longer offered for any other piece of software. So if I never see Gmax
> > for FSX again I won't be too surprised at the development). These 2
> > things have put me off buying FSX now and a new machine in the next
> few
> > months.
> >
> > Gmax being yanked has put me off learning to 3D model for an R/C
> flight
> > sim called Realflight G3. There are legal ways around this now in the
> > form of other cheaper software, but if you don't want ot jump through
> > hoops and aren't willing to pirate it's messy and difficult. I think
> > this is an awful move by Autodesk by the way. They owed us nothing
> > until they got people hooked on using their "free" product, then
> > promptly yanked it to replace it with a very expensive one. I could
> > compare this behaviour with an illegal industry but I'm trying to make
> > sure nothing I say here is libelous.
> >
> > There are a lot of weak arguments going on around why activation is
> > bad. I wanted to make a stronger case. In my honest opinion software
> > makers have well and truely crossed the line trying to protect
> revenue.
> > If you think I'm a software piracy apologist, or a cheapskate, I can
> > show you 3 draws full of original current computer games, and a large
> > storage container of old folded up CD boxes (again all orginal and
> paid
> > for). In my life I'd conservatively say I've spent around AUD20k on
> > software and only a little less again on hardware.
> >
> > Apart from the hassle, activation basically turns FSX into a rental
> > game. As soon as Microsoft decide they're no longer supporting it,
> > you'll no longer be able to reinstall it. If they promise otherwise
> you
> > only have their word on that. On the other hand if you have Flight Sim
> > 95 or 98 right now, and still have hardware that will run it, there's
> > nothing to stop you from re-installing. Any on CD copy protection will
> > still work (Of course I acknowledge 10 year old copy protection isn't
> > going to be hard to defeat if you're so inclined). This will not be
> the
> > case for FSX in 10 years time. Not long after MS ship FS11 or if
> > they're generous, FS12, you'll find yourself unable to activate the no
> > longer supported FSX. If MS get taken over or go bankrupt (unlikely
> > right now, but big business can suddenly change) you won't be able to
> > activate. If they sell of FSX, you may not be able to activate. No one
> > but the owner has the right to activate the product for you unless
> > those rights are assigned by the owner. There is no such thing as
> > competing 3rd party activation and the legal rights to do so can be
> > sold or discarded if a company gets in trouble. THIS is why I don't
> buy
> > the payware 3rd party addons for FS2004 (from smaller less financially
> > secure companies than MS). THIS is why I can't bring myself to buy FSX
> > right now.
> >
> > Can you imagine what it would be like if aircraft manufacturers did
> > this. (Perhaps they already are with aircraft software these days).
> All
> > those air museums that actually fly aircraft would sit idle because no
> > machine over 7 years old would fly. Getting back to FSX, even if the
> > copyright on the software expires, activation will prevent its use.
> >
> > So lets say that a no-activation crack comes out. I have to break the
> > law to use the flight sim in a few years? No thanks. Typically
> enforced
> > or not, explain to me why I should risk time in prison and/or
> financial
> > ruin over any piece of software? Perhaps I'm paranoid but I can't
> > believe people openly and freely talk about using nocds and other anti
> > piracy circumvention tools on the forums. Any time in the near future
> a
> > gung ho law enforcement official may decide to collect information
> from
> > the groups and make an example out of a lot of people.
> >
> > Just remember this any time someones tells you activation is only to
> be
> > feared by pirates or is better than CD/DVD copy protection. This is
> > true of any DRM based copy protection. DRM and activation on
> > games/movies/music/books are nothing more than a rental scheme with an
> > enforced return date and conditions that you cannot know fully in
> > advance. Each time you install or other conditions are met (eg. change
> > computer parts), you must go back to the original company for
> > permission to use the product. This may be refused at any time for a
> > variety of reasons. THAT is not FUD, that is fact.
> >
> > Another thing. Right now I can download a multitude of free aircraft,
> > scenery and utilities for FS2004. Now where's the insentive to
> continue
> > freeware development? Unless Gmax for FSX is released you're going to
> > have trouble using the latest tools for free. 3DSMax cost around US4k
> > last time I looked - no problem if you sell lots of aircraft but I
> > don't want to try to do that. If I do develop an aircraft for FSX they
> > may not work in the following version, and as described above FSX
> > actviation may disappear. Why am I going to spend the time and effort
> > learning to 3D model and build for FSX to create something with a
> shelf
> > life the length of supported activation? What's worse by giving away
> my
> > work I'm making a product with these restrictions sold by a company
> > that does this to its customers more attractive to others. I simply
> > can't justify it.
> >
> > The flight sim industry isn't moving forward as claimed at the AVSIM
> > conference. This kind of greed and stupidity will eventually see
> flight
> > sim become less and less mainstream, more arcadish, and more
> expensive.
> > People will press on for quite some time and we'll see some good stuff
> > as features of FSX are taken advantage of. However in 10 years we'll
> be
> > living in a world where it costs a lot to make freeware for such a
> > proprietary product, and your old software no longer installs. DRM,
> > activation and expensive development tools are a cancer that will eat
> > away at the hobby. They've basically forgotten what made Flight Sim
> the
> > franchise it is today - the open architecture. Open to anyone with
> time
> > and a willingness to learn (as opposed to an elite who can afford it).
> >
> > This really upsets me. I want FSX. I want things to move forward. I
> > don't mind paying some money for it, but you can bet I'm not going to
> > spend 2-3k on a machine, money on the software for each computer I
> want
> > to use the sim on, 4k on development tools, and another 4k on addons
> > for flying and development. I'm now thinking of buying a decent
> machine
> > while I still can that will run FS2004 as smoothly as possible, and
> > have no idea where to put my development effort. >> Stay informed about: Online activation and greed, or why I'm not buying FSX on .. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |  |
External

Since: Feb 15, 2005 Posts: 1613
|
(Msg. 6) Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Online activation and greed, or why I'm not buying FSX on release [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
Hi Sammy,
Interestingly, I tried to re-install my copy of Voice Buddy on a
re-formatted hard drive yesterday, and during the course of entering my
activation key/serial # (which I had kept a record of), you go online to get
the key...
I got the message that someone else already had that key - YEAH, ME!! I
have a record of their email order confirmation, etc, etc.
I couldn't get any further, and will have to go to the trouble of
sorting it out today..... what an unnecessary hassle!!!
Regards,
John Ward
"Sammy" <syousef.RemoveThis@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:1159395300.641362.24820@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>I only learnt of the requirement of online activation with FSX today. I
> guess I'm not too surprised. Yesterday I learnt that the inital release
> of FSX will only ship with the Max Tools, not Gmax. Presumably Gmax for
> FSX is coming later (though my understanding is that Autodesk is doing
> their best to encourage people into buying Max, has end of lifed Gmax
> and had to be persuaded to continue with Gmax for FSX given its no
> longer offered for any other piece of software. So if I never see Gmax
> for FSX again I won't be too surprised at the development). These 2
> things have put me off buying FSX now and a new machine in the next few
> months.
>
> Gmax being yanked has put me off learning to 3D model for an R/C flight
> sim called Realflight G3. There are legal ways around this now in the
> form of other cheaper software, but if you don't want ot jump through
> hoops and aren't willing to pirate it's messy and difficult. I think
> this is an awful move by Autodesk by the way. They owed us nothing
> until they got people hooked on using their "free" product, then
> promptly yanked it to replace it with a very expensive one. I could
> compare this behaviour with an illegal industry but I'm trying to make
> sure nothing I say here is libelous.
>
> There are a lot of weak arguments going on around why activation is
> bad. I wanted to make a stronger case. In my honest opinion software
> makers have well and truely crossed the line trying to protect revenue.
> If you think I'm a software piracy apologist, or a cheapskate, I can
> show you 3 draws full of original current computer games, and a large
> storage container of old folded up CD boxes (again all orginal and paid
> for). In my life I'd conservatively say I've spent around AUD20k on
> software and only a little less again on hardware.
>
> Apart from the hassle, activation basically turns FSX into a rental
> game. As soon as Microsoft decide they're no longer supporting it,
> you'll no longer be able to reinstall it. If they promise otherwise you
> only have their word on that. On the other hand if you have Flight Sim
> 95 or 98 right now, and still have hardware that will run it, there's
> nothing to stop you from re-installing. Any on CD copy protection will
> still work (Of course I acknowledge 10 year old copy protection isn't
> going to be hard to defeat if you're so inclined). This will not be the
> case for FSX in 10 years time. Not long after MS ship FS11 or if
> they're generous, FS12, you'll find yourself unable to activate the no
> longer supported FSX. If MS get taken over or go bankrupt (unlikely
> right now, but big business can suddenly change) you won't be able to
> activate. If they sell of FSX, you may not be able to activate. No one
> but the owner has the right to activate the product for you unless
> those rights are assigned by the owner. There is no such thing as
> competing 3rd party activation and the legal rights to do so can be
> sold or discarded if a company gets in trouble. THIS is why I don't buy
> the payware 3rd party addons for FS2004 (from smaller less financially
> secure companies than MS). THIS is why I can't bring myself to buy FSX
> right now.
>
> Can you imagine what it would be like if aircraft manufacturers did
> this. (Perhaps they already are with aircraft software these days). All
> those air museums that actually fly aircraft would sit idle because no
> machine over 7 years old would fly. Getting back to FSX, even if the
> copyright on the software expires, activation will prevent its use.
>
> So lets say that a no-activation crack comes out. I have to break the
> law to use the flight sim in a few years? No thanks. Typically enforced
> or not, explain to me why I should risk time in prison and/or financial
> ruin over any piece of software? Perhaps I'm paranoid but I can't
> believe people openly and freely talk about using nocds and other anti
> piracy circumvention tools on the forums. Any time in the near future a
> gung ho law enforcement official may decide to collect information from
> the groups and make an example out of a lot of people.
>
> Just remember this any time someones tells you activation is only to be
> feared by pirates or is better than CD/DVD copy protection. This is
> true of any DRM based copy protection. DRM and activation on
> games/movies/music/books are nothing more than a rental scheme with an
> enforced return date and conditions that you cannot know fully in
> advance. Each time you install or other conditions are met (eg. change
> computer parts), you must go back to the original company for
> permission to use the product. This may be refused at any time for a
> variety of reasons. THAT is not FUD, that is fact.
>
> Another thing. Right now I can download a multitude of free aircraft,
> scenery and utilities for FS2004. Now where's the insentive to continue
> freeware development? Unless Gmax for FSX is released you're going to
> have trouble using the latest tools for free. 3DSMax cost around US4k
> last time I looked - no problem if you sell lots of aircraft but I
> don't want to try to do that. If I do develop an aircraft for FSX they
> may not work in the following version, and as described above FSX
> actviation may disappear. Why am I going to spend the time and effort
> learning to 3D model and build for FSX to create something with a shelf
> life the length of supported activation? What's worse by giving away my
> work I'm making a product with these restrictions sold by a company
> that does this to its customers more attractive to others. I simply
> can't justify it.
>
> The flight sim industry isn't moving forward as claimed at the AVSIM
> conference. This kind of greed and stupidity will eventually see flight
> sim become less and less mainstream, more arcadish, and more expensive.
> People will press on for quite some time and we'll see some good stuff
> as features of FSX are taken advantage of. However in 10 years we'll be
> living in a world where it costs a lot to make freeware for such a
> proprietary product, and your old software no longer installs. DRM,
> activation and expensive development tools are a cancer that will eat
> away at the hobby. They've basically forgotten what made Flight Sim the
> franchise it is today - the open architecture. Open to anyone with time
> and a willingness to learn (as opposed to an elite who can afford it).
>
> This really upsets me. I want FSX. I want things to move forward. I
> don't mind paying some money for it, but you can bet I'm not going to
> spend 2-3k on a machine, money on the software for each computer I want
> to use the sim on, 4k on development tools, and another 4k on addons
> for flying and development. I'm now thinking of buying a decent machine
> while I still can that will run FS2004 as smoothly as possible, and
> have no idea where to put my development effort.
> >> Stay informed about: Online activation and greed, or why I'm not buying FSX on .. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |  |
External

Since: Feb 18, 2006 Posts: 658
|
(Msg. 7) Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Online activation and greed, or why I'm not buying FSX on release [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
The situation that Sammy was talking about is already in place.
Remember, in FS8 there was a great WWII combat game that actually became
Combat Flight sim. Called Fighter Ace. We flew Online in Gaming Zone. The
Big MS got tired of it and sold the whole thing to someone else. Its still
around, but is a lot more money now to fly online. So I dont bother.
I lifetime ago in a different generation, I had an Apple IIc. The first
runner for the now laptops. No harddrive, one built in 5 1/4 drive. I had
to get an external drive so I could use one of them for the operating system
and the other for the data disk when I flew on FS2.
Well, Apple got around to offering a new puter and turned there backs on not
only my IIc but the whole lot of IIE also. A lot of people got pissed for
spending a lot of money and now couldn't even buy programs for it.
Looks like another generation but the same old scam.
Remember also, that not every version of FS was a good deal better. A lot
of the in between versions were nothing to sneeze at and were looked over by
the die hards. Does anybody even remember versions 3 and 4? Five was a big
jump. If this version isnt that much better than FS9, I will pass and go
for the next version after that. No big deal, and it wont be the first time
I passed over something. You don't need every version that is made.
Example: What version of Photo Shop do you have? I had heard that the
latest, I think version 9 is only so so. I have 7 I think. Its a great
program, and If I wanted to go out and spend my hard earned money on the new
one that is not so great, why bother. How much is it?? Several hundred
right?
We spent about $40.00 on FS9. I have only one, payware Mega Scenery Denver.
I have two planes, both from PMDG. The 737NG and the B1900D. When the new
version of FS comes out, will I be able to use my payware in the new
version? I seriously doubt it, and I seriously don't expect those companies
to even care. They want me to spend my hard earned money, on the same
things I already spent it on for the newer version of FS. PMDG already
released a statement that they will not cover or update there stuff for the
new release. So, was I taken? Yes. Will I spend my money on some other
payware stuff? Maybe, probably not. Thru the years, this was the first
time I had ever bought anything extra for FS. There is too many extremely
good freeware stuff out there. The payware sceneries are great. The
payware planes are only just a drop better than freeware. Not worth it.
Not4wood
"pem227" <pem227.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:sf3mh2tpaarudqa3nk92d3j16gosgal0k8@4ax.com...
> On 27 Sep 2006 15:15:00 -0700, "Sammy" <syousef.RemoveThis@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>
> For me online activation of FSX is an improvement over the historical
> requirement to have install media present in the cdrom drive. That
> hassle drove many to download NOCD fs9.exe files.
> Now its click once and play. As with other Microsoft products
> requiring activation it will be available online or via phone and will
> allow for a reasonable amount of reinstalls if you need to rebuild
> your machine or move to a new machine etc.
>
> As for the long term availability of FSX activation its not much of a
> concern. I have always purchased each new MSFS release and will
> continue to do so. Given the two to three year release cycle I can't
> see needing to activate an FSX install 10 years from now.
>
> Phil
>
>>I only learnt of the requirement of online activation with FSX today. I
>>guess I'm not too surprised. Yesterday I learnt that the inital release
>>of FSX will only ship with the Max Tools, not Gmax. Presumably Gmax for
>>FSX is coming later (though my understanding is that Autodesk is doing
>>their best to encourage people into buying Max, has end of lifed Gmax
>>and had to be persuaded to continue with Gmax for FSX given its no
>>longer offered for any other piece of software. So if I never see Gmax
>>for FSX again I won't be too surprised at the development). These 2
>>things have put me off buying FSX now and a new machine in the next few
>>months.
>>
>>Gmax being yanked has put me off learning to 3D model for an R/C flight
>>sim called Realflight G3. There are legal ways around this now in the
>>form of other cheaper software, but if you don't want ot jump through
>>hoops and aren't willing to pirate it's messy and difficult. I think
>>this is an awful move by Autodesk by the way. They owed us nothing
>>until they got people hooked on using their "free" product, then
>>promptly yanked it to replace it with a very expensive one. I could
>>compare this behaviour with an illegal industry but I'm trying to make
>>sure nothing I say here is libelous.
>>
>>There are a lot of weak arguments going on around why activation is
>>bad. I wanted to make a stronger case. In my honest opinion software
>>makers have well and truely crossed the line trying to protect revenue.
>>If you think I'm a software piracy apologist, or a cheapskate, I can
>>show you 3 draws full of original current computer games, and a large
>>storage container of old folded up CD boxes (again all orginal and paid
>>for). In my life I'd conservatively say I've spent around AUD20k on
>>software and only a little less again on hardware.
>>
>>Apart from the hassle, activation basically turns FSX into a rental
>>game. As soon as Microsoft decide they're no longer supporting it,
>>you'll no longer be able to reinstall it. If they promise otherwise you
>>only have their word on that. On the other hand if you have Flight Sim
>>95 or 98 right now, and still have hardware that will run it, there's
>>nothing to stop you from re-installing. Any on CD copy protection will
>>still work (Of course I acknowledge 10 year old copy protection isn't
>>going to be hard to defeat if you're so inclined). This will not be the
>>case for FSX in 10 years time. Not long after MS ship FS11 or if
>>they're generous, FS12, you'll find yourself unable to activate the no
>>longer supported FSX. If MS get taken over or go bankrupt (unlikely
>>right now, but big business can suddenly change) you won't be able to
>>activate. If they sell of FSX, you may not be able to activate. No one
>>but the owner has the right to activate the product for you unless
>>those rights are assigned by the owner. There is no such thing as
>>competing 3rd party activation and the legal rights to do so can be
>>sold or discarded if a company gets in trouble. THIS is why I don't buy
>>the payware 3rd party addons for FS2004 (from smaller less financially
>>secure companies than MS). THIS is why I can't bring myself to buy FSX
>>right now.
>>
>>Can you imagine what it would be like if aircraft manufacturers did
>>this. (Perhaps they already are with aircraft software these days). All
>>those air museums that actually fly aircraft would sit idle because no
>>machine over 7 years old would fly. Getting back to FSX, even if the
>>copyright on the software expires, activation will prevent its use.
>>
>>So lets say that a no-activation crack comes out. I have to break the
>>law to use the flight sim in a few years? No thanks. Typically enforced
>>or not, explain to me why I should risk time in prison and/or financial
>>ruin over any piece of software? Perhaps I'm paranoid but I can't
>>believe people openly and freely talk about using nocds and other anti
>>piracy circumvention tools on the forums. Any time in the near future a
>>gung ho law enforcement official may decide to collect information from
>>the groups and make an example out of a lot of people.
>>
>>Just remember this any time someones tells you activation is only to be
>>feared by pirates or is better than CD/DVD copy protection. This is
>>true of any DRM based copy protection. DRM and activation on
>>games/movies/music/books are nothing more than a rental scheme with an
>>enforced return date and conditions that you cannot know fully in
>>advance. Each time you install or other conditions are met (eg. change
>>computer parts), you must go back to the original company for
>>permission to use the product. This may be refused at any time for a
>>variety of reasons. THAT is not FUD, that is fact.
>>
>>Another thing. Right now I can download a multitude of free aircraft,
>>scenery and utilities for FS2004. Now where's the insentive to continue
>>freeware development? Unless Gmax for FSX is released you're going to
>>have trouble using the latest tools for free. 3DSMax cost around US4k
>>last time I looked - no problem if you sell lots of aircraft but I
>>don't want to try to do that. If I do develop an aircraft for FSX they
>>may not work in the following version, and as described above FSX
>>actviation may disappear. Why am I going to spend the time and effort
>>learning to 3D model and build for FSX to create something with a shelf
>>life the length of supported activation? What's worse by giving away my
>>work I'm making a product with these restrictions sold by a company
>>that does this to its customers more attractive to others. I simply
>>can't justify it.
>>
>>The flight sim industry isn't moving forward as claimed at the AVSIM
>>conference. This kind of greed and stupidity will eventually see flight
>>sim become less and less mainstream, more arcadish, and more expensive.
>>People will press on for quite some time and we'll see some good stuff
>>as features of FSX are taken advantage of. However in 10 years we'll be
>>living in a world where it costs a lot to make freeware for such a
>>proprietary product, and your old software no longer installs. DRM,
>>activation and expensive development tools are a cancer that will eat
>>away at the hobby. They've basically forgotten what made Flight Sim the
>>franchise it is today - the open architecture. Open to anyone with time
>>and a willingness to learn (as opposed to an elite who can afford it).
>>
>>This really upsets me. I want FSX. I want things to move forward. I
>>don't mind paying some money for it, but you can bet I'm not going to
>>spend 2-3k on a machine, money on the software for each computer I want
>>to use the sim on, 4k on development tools, and another 4k on addons
>>for flying and development. I'm now thinking of buying a decent machine
>>while I still can that will run FS2004 as smoothly as possible, and
>>have no idea where to put my development effort. >> Stay informed about: Online activation and greed, or why I'm not buying FSX on .. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |  |
External

Since: Aug 03, 2005 Posts: 1889
|
(Msg. 8) Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:55 am
Post subject: Re: Online activation and greed, or why I'm not buying FSX on release [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
FSGenesis writes:
> IMO, Activation: much ado about nothing.
Unfortunately, I share all of his concerns about activation, and
that's true even though I'm completely honest in my use of software.
I have several decades of experience with computers, and I consider
activation to be a bad thing. In fact, I consider all but the most
trivial copy protection to be a bad thing, and in some cases I
consider it criminal (installation of rootkits, for example).
It's odd that pirates are readily prosecuted as bad guys, but when a
software vendor corrupts your disk as part of its "copy protection,"
you're expected to grin and bear it.
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. >> Stay informed about: Online activation and greed, or why I'm not buying FSX on .. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |  |
External

Since: Aug 03, 2005 Posts: 1889
|
(Msg. 9) Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:55 am
Post subject: Re: Online activation and greed, or why I'm not buying FSX on release [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
pem227 writes:
> For me online activation of FSX is an improvement over the historical
> requirement to have install media present in the cdrom drive. That
> hassle drove many to download NOCD fs9.exe files.
It's a bit of a hassle, but why is it so hard to just put the CD in
the drive? You normally aren't running anything else while you play
MSFS, so you can easily do this.
> As for the long term availability of FSX activation its not much of a
> concern. I have always purchased each new MSFS release and will
> continue to do so. Given the two to three year release cycle I can't
> see needing to activate an FSX install 10 years from now.
You're a salesperson's dream.
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. >> Stay informed about: Online activation and greed, or why I'm not buying FSX on .. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |  |
External

Since: Aug 03, 2005 Posts: 1889
|
(Msg. 10) Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:55 am
Post subject: Re: Online activation and greed, or why I'm not buying FSX on release [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
Not4wood writes:
> Example: What version of Photo Shop do you have?
I have 5.02. It does everything I require, so I've never "upgraded"
it. Also, current versions install a rootkit (like most Adobe
products), so I won't use those.
> We spent about $40.00 on FS9. I have only one, payware Mega Scenery Denver.
> I have two planes, both from PMDG. The 737NG and the B1900D. When the new
> version of FS comes out, will I be able to use my payware in the new
> version? I seriously doubt it, and I seriously don't expect those companies
> to even care. They want me to spend my hard earned money, on the same
> things I already spent it on for the newer version of FS. PMDG already
> released a statement that they will not cover or update there stuff for the
> new release.
Fine with me. I can stay with FS 2004 indefinitely. And if PMDG and
Dreamfleet choose to support only FS 2004, that's also fine with
me--one less reason for me to stick with FS 2004 and save money.
> So, was I taken? Yes. Will I spend my money on some other
> payware stuff? Maybe, probably not. Thru the years, this was the first
> time I had ever bought anything extra for FS. There is too many extremely
> good freeware stuff out there. The payware sceneries are great. The
> payware planes are only just a drop better than freeware. Not worth it.
I find that both the Dreamfleet and PMDG aircraft are vastly better
than any freeware I found.
Scenery is a different matter. For one thing, it slows the machine
down, payware or not. And some vendors have the nerve to require
online activation, and that's just too much trouble for a slightly
prettier picture of an airport.
--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. >> Stay informed about: Online activation and greed, or why I'm not buying FSX on .. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |  |
External

Since: Sep 03, 2006 Posts: 330
|
(Msg. 11) Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:55 am
Post subject: Re: Online activation and greed, or why I'm not buying FSX on release [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
"Mxsmanic" <mxsmanic DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8mimh212cho0320p743945l91sbv17aiqa@4ax.com...
> Not4wood writes:
>
>> Example: What version of Photo Shop do you have?
>
> I have 5.02. It does everything I require, so I've never "upgraded"
> it. Also, current versions install a rootkit (like most Adobe
> products), so I won't use those.
I have Adobe Photoshop CS2 (legal). What do these rootkits do?
>
>> We spent about $40.00 on FS9. I have only one, payware Mega Scenery
>> Denver.
>> I have two planes, both from PMDG. The 737NG and the B1900D. When the
>> new
>> version of FS comes out, will I be able to use my payware in the new
>> version? I seriously doubt it, and I seriously don't expect those
>> companies
>> to even care. They want me to spend my hard earned money, on the same
>> things I already spent it on for the newer version of FS. PMDG already
>> released a statement that they will not cover or update there stuff for
>> the
>> new release.
>
> Fine with me. I can stay with FS 2004 indefinitely. And if PMDG and
> Dreamfleet choose to support only FS 2004, that's also fine with
> me--one less reason for me to stick with FS 2004 and save money.
>
>> So, was I taken? Yes. Will I spend my money on some other
>> payware stuff? Maybe, probably not. Thru the years, this was the first
>> time I had ever bought anything extra for FS. There is too many
>> extremely
>> good freeware stuff out there. The payware sceneries are great. The
>> payware planes are only just a drop better than freeware. Not worth it.
>
> I find that both the Dreamfleet and PMDG aircraft are vastly better
> than any freeware I found.
>
> Scenery is a different matter. For one thing, it slows the machine
> down, payware or not. And some vendors have the nerve to require
> online activation, and that's just too much trouble for a slightly
> prettier picture of an airport.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. >> Stay informed about: Online activation and greed, or why I'm not buying FSX on .. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |  |
External

Since: Nov 09, 2007 Posts: 283
|
(Msg. 12) Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:12 am
Post subject: Re: Online activation and greed, or why I'm not buying FSX on release [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
|
|
|
My 2 cents worth
" I have a dual race/flightsim setup and regulary fly/drive 4 different
games in 1 sitting. Thats 4 times I have to open the box, take out the
CD, open the cd player, take out the CD, open the box, replace the CD
in the box and place the next CD in the cd player.
That pisses me off more than anything, loss of time playing, wear and
tear on the CD, the Original box and the cd payer, I dont/wont buy
another product before it has a NoCD crack.
Sorry, loss of money for the developer because when I get around to
buying it it is half price or I have got a cracked version free that
doesnt need to have the Cd in the player. 50-100% loss.
I also have a drawer full of originals and buy a lot of planes from
dreamfleet/flight1/Carendo and other Addons like FSGenesis and Ultimate
Terrain.
If you look at my 9pc 13 monitor setup http://www.wideview.it/steve/
can you imagine what it's like to have to put the software on all pc's
only to find out after 3 installs I cant install it any more because it
is 3 times already activated.
Surely you can understand why I would look for a pirated copy or just
not buy it at all.
Mostly I dont buy, I just stick to the sytem I have already setup and
running.
_________________________________________________________
Posted via the -Web to Usenet- forums at http://forums.simradar.com
Visit www.simradar.com and try our Flight Simulation Search Engine! >> Stay informed about: Online activation and greed, or why I'm not buying FSX on .. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |  |
External

Since: Jul 05, 2005 Posts: 19
|
(Msg. 13) Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:55 am
Post subject: Re: Online activation and greed, or why I'm not buying FSX on release [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post ( | | |
|
|