Oblivion Grumble

"userek" <luser DeleteThis @irc.pl> wrote in message
news:20060622144721.0bb76df8.luser@irc.pl...
> On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:18:53 -0400
> Kathy <kasia DeleteThis @netsync.net> wrote:
>
>> for a Pentium 4 and on DVD only, I don't rate that high and I don't
>> own a dvd player for the computer; have a stand alone only and
>> couldn't play it on this anyway and I would have to do a major upgrade
>> to play it and then no more any of my other games.
>>
>> Kathy G.
>
> Most poeple would have to do a major upgrades to play that game . The
> DVDrom is actually qute cheap, the problem is the game needs a lot of ram
> ~1 GB and the best graphic card on the market ). Its a pain for me too,
> maybe i'll play this game in a couple of years. Anyway daggerfall is still
> the best of elder scrolls series .
>
> m
>

Under the latest DosBox (0.65), one can even install DF so easily, thanks to
the -freesize 1024 option allowed. It runs like a bliss on a good machine. I
do have Oblivion and, while I know that some would think I am mad, I still
think that the feeling you get with DF has not been found in any other elder
scrolls game. The customization is truly amazing, and it doesn't depend on
its graphics to make good atmosphere. I am becoming uncomfortably aware that
the various Oblivion dungeons are small and while still a great game, it
does lack that unique DF feeling.

Proof of how DF could be is how many ppl are now after Arena, its
predecessor, that it has been out. If DF was also released, it would become
I think no. 1 and frankly ppl would just patiently wait a year or two in
order to get Oblivion on their newer systems.

Bah.

P
 >> Stay informed about: Oblivion Grumble 

On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 18:24:20 GMT, "Pi" <pinospam.RemoveThis@none.com> wrote:

>Under the latest DosBox (0.65), one can even install DF so easily, thanks to
>the -freesize 1024 option allowed. It runs like a bliss on a good machine. I
>do have Oblivion and, while I know that some would think I am mad, I still
>think that the feeling you get with DF has not been found in any other elder
>scrolls game. The customization is truly amazing, and it doesn't depend on
>its graphics to make good atmosphere. I am becoming uncomfortably aware that
>the various Oblivion dungeons are small and while still a great game, it
>does lack that unique DF feeling.

Great news. I will have to remember that for when my old 586 finally
wears out. I agree that Daggerfall has an atmosphere that Morrowind
just can't match. I don't know about Oblivion yet, as I haven't
gotten my upgrade yet. I think that the music has a lot to do with
it. In Morrowind, you get the same four tunes over and over whether
you are in town, strolling through the countryside or sneaking through
a cave. There is some "danger" music, but it is so very similar to
one of the regular tunes that it just blends right in. In Daggerfall,
there were several tunes for cities, one for stores and inns, one for
when it was snowing and a whole bunch of very spooky ones for dungeon
delving. There is no "danger" music, so you can get ambushed quite
easily.

>Proof of how DF could be is how many ppl are now after Arena, its
>predecessor, that it has been out. If DF was also released, it would become
>I think no. 1 and frankly ppl would just patiently wait a year or two in
>order to get Oblivion on their newer systems.
>
I was introducing a friend to the Elder Scrolls series and the only
place either of us could find Arena was the free download from
Bethsoft. I finally downloaded Arena there, as I could never get the
sound to work with Arena on my old machine. The music sounds similar
to Daggerfall's, but it stutters really badly. Do you know a fix for
this?
--
Nyctolops
 >> Stay informed about: Oblivion Grumble 

"Nyctolops" <nyctolops RemoveThis @vla.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:2p4od2p4ch0rk5m5f0o08ua5sf7fd7t9c8@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 18:24:20 GMT, "Pi" <pinospam RemoveThis @none.com> wrote:
>
>>Under the latest DosBox (0.65), one can even install DF so easily, thanks
>>to
>>the -freesize 1024 option allowed. It runs like a bliss on a good machine.
>>I
>>do have Oblivion and, while I know that some would think I am mad, I still
>>think that the feeling you get with DF has not been found in any other
>>elder
>>scrolls game. The customization is truly amazing, and it doesn't depend on
>>its graphics to make good atmosphere. I am becoming uncomfortably aware
>>that
>>the various Oblivion dungeons are small and while still a great game, it
>>does lack that unique DF feeling.
>
> Great news. I will have to remember that for when my old 586 finally
> wears out. I agree that Daggerfall has an atmosphere that Morrowind
> just can't match. I don't know about Oblivion yet, as I haven't
> gotten my upgrade yet. I think that the music has a lot to do with
> it. In Morrowind, you get the same four tunes over and over whether
> you are in town, strolling through the countryside or sneaking through
> a cave. There is some "danger" music, but it is so very similar to
> one of the regular tunes that it just blends right in. In Daggerfall,
> there were several tunes for cities, one for stores and inns, one for
> when it was snowing and a whole bunch of very spooky ones for dungeon
> delving. There is no "danger" music, so you can get ambushed quite
> easily.
>
>>Proof of how DF could be is how many ppl are now after Arena, its
>>predecessor, that it has been out. If DF was also released, it would
>>become
>>I think no. 1 and frankly ppl would just patiently wait a year or two in
>>order to get Oblivion on their newer systems.
>>
> I was introducing a friend to the Elder Scrolls series and the only
> place either of us could find Arena was the free download from
> Bethsoft. I finally downloaded Arena there, as I could never get the
> sound to work with Arena on my old machine. The music sounds similar
> to Daggerfall's, but it stutters really badly. Do you know a fix for
> this?
> --
> Nyctolops

My feeling is that graphics are nice but games are all about gameplay.
Unless graphics are part of the gameplay it's just eye candy to me. I'd like
to see more subtleies in the people some day. Like if you really had to look
at them to tell if they were lying, see a slight flush of the face, pupil
dilation, tight lips.

Daggerfall still makes the hair on the back of my neck crawl. The fighting
interface really gets me involved. I really have to bob and weave when going
up against a powerful attacker. The sheer size makes it interesting, the
different houses in different provinces, having to hunt around for the quest
location, as opposed to having it marked on the map all the time. The other
thing is replay value. You can come up with pretty interesting custom
classes and role play like crazy. Like Magnus's Linguist. The plot lines
were layered in deceit.

I don't know why but those pixelated graphics don't bother me, even when
they turn into giant squares. Sure they look stupid but I don't mind it,
whereas a slight flaw in an otherwise beautiful 3D model does bother me.
Deep down somewhere. Sort of like how the robot on Lost in Space doesn't
bother me but ones that look almost human do.

Heyrab
 >> Stay informed about: Oblivion Grumble 

"Captain Heyrab" <Captain_underscore_Heyrab DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:HtidnfgGl71930DZnZ2dnUVZ_qGdnZ2d@comcast.com...
> "Nyctolops" <nyctolops DeleteThis @vla.nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:2p4od2p4ch0rk5m5f0o08ua5sf7fd7t9c8@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 18:24:20 GMT, "Pi" <pinospam DeleteThis @none.com> wrote:
>>
> My feeling is that graphics are nice but games are all about gameplay.
> Unless graphics are part of the gameplay it's just eye candy to me. I'd
> like to see more subtleies in the people some day. Like if you really had
> to look at them to tell if they were lying, see a slight flush of the
> face, pupil dilation, tight lips.
>

I don't disagree with this, but eventually you will get to understand a lot
more this way.
Of course, the situation in Oblivion is not much different, when you are
told a lie: it shows you haven't
been told the whole truth. And yet, it spoils the adventure ... finding out
someone lied later on, is what would truly make it
interesting ... or trying hard to increase your disposition towards a
character would make this rewarding ('imagine! the son-of-a-gun
was lying to me before!"). O

> Daggerfall still makes the hair on the back of my neck crawl. The fighting
> interface really gets me involved. I really have to bob and weave when
> going up against a powerful attacker. The sheer size makes it interesting,
> the

You really feel you're going on a long quest because ... well, you are!



> I don't know why but those pixelated graphics don't bother me, even when
> they turn into giant squares. Sure they look stupid but I don't mind it,
> whereas a slight flaw in an otherwise beautiful 3D model does bother me.
> Deep down somewhere. Sort of like how the robot on Lost in Space doesn't
> bother me but ones that look almost human do.
>

I think that is at the heart of the problem. We forget sometimes that we
play to relax and have some fun,
to role-play a character for a bit, get involved in the essence of the game.
But of course when you have the pretty
graphics you will go "ah! so pretty" and then you will want the latest mod
that adds more pretty lips, or hands and it
just doesn't stop. Nothing wrong with that, but it often stays there.

Perhaps there is a way out: introducing some serious randomization into
mods.

If only MW/Oblivion mods could randomize terrain and buildings to make new
cities and dungeons out of them, we would at least have an enormous game to
play with, 'cos I think a very large part of what we're missing here is
getting lost into some world. Now, I am sorry but I cannot feel lost in a
small state that the Imperial City is, and as for running around the
wilderness I feel like running around my back garden. OK, this is a little
harsh but the people who enthuse with oblivion are those who never even
learned of DF ('cos Arena is out there fo all and was good but quite plain
in terms of content -- the only thing missing in DF from Arena, IMHO, is the
interesting scenery between cities, as in DF it is not as varied). So, if we
randomize MW/Oblivion to make new cities and huge dungeones and then
obviously add more guilds, some "work", set "asking directions" (instead of
being led by the hand), then perhaps we can get a new evolved DF. Contrary
to what Bethesda has been doing (reducing randomization) I think the way
forward is to bring it back.

> Heyrab
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Oblivion Grumble 

"Pi" <pinospam.DeleteThis@none.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:sXsFg.10576$kO3.5473@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "Captain Heyrab"
<Captain_underscore_Heyrab.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
news:HtidnfgGl71930DZnZ2dnUVZ_qGdnZ2d@comcast.com...
>> "Nyctolops" <nyctolops.DeleteThis@vla.nospam.com> wrote in
message
>> news:2p4od2p4ch0rk5m5f0o08ua5sf7fd7t9c8@4ax.com...
>>> On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 18:24:20 GMT, "Pi"
<pinospam.DeleteThis@none.com> wrote:
>>>
>> My feeling is that graphics are nice but games are
all about gameplay.
>> Unless graphics are part of the gameplay it's just
eye candy to me. I'd
>> like to see more subtleies in the people some day.
Like if you really had
>> to look at them to tell if they were lying, see a
slight flush of the
>> face, pupil dilation, tight lips.
>>
>
> I don't disagree with this, but eventually you will
get to understand a lot
> more this way.
> Of course, the situation in Oblivion is not much
different, when you are
> told a lie: it shows you haven't
> been told the whole truth. And yet, it spoils the
adventure ... finding out
> someone lied later on, is what would truly make it
> interesting ... or trying hard to increase your
disposition towards a
> character would make this rewarding ('imagine! the
son-of-a-gun
> was lying to me before!"). O
>
>> Daggerfall still makes the hair on the back of my
neck crawl. The fighting
>> interface really gets me involved. I really have
to bob and weave when
>> going up against a powerful attacker. The sheer
size makes it interesting,
>> the
>
> You really feel you're going on a long quest
because ... well, you are!
>
>
>
>> I don't know why but those pixelated graphics
don't bother me, even when
>> they turn into giant squares. Sure they look
stupid but I don't mind it,
>> whereas a slight flaw in an otherwise beautiful 3D
model does bother me.
>> Deep down somewhere. Sort of like how the robot on
Lost in Space doesn't
>> bother me but ones that look almost human do.
>>
>
> I think that is at the heart of the problem. We
forget sometimes that we
> play to relax and have some fun,
> to role-play a character for a bit, get involved in
the essence of the game.
> But of course when you have the pretty
> graphics you will go "ah! so pretty" and then you
will want the latest mod
> that adds more pretty lips, or hands and it
> just doesn't stop. Nothing wrong with that, but it
often stays there.
>
> Perhaps there is a way out: introducing some
serious randomization into
> mods.
>
> If only MW/Oblivion mods could randomize terrain
and buildings to make new
> cities and dungeons out of them, we would at least
have an enormous game to
> play with, 'cos I think a very large part of what
we're missing here is
> getting lost into some world. Now, I am sorry but I
cannot feel lost in a
> small state that the Imperial City is, and as for
running around the
> wilderness I feel like running around my back
garden. OK, this is a little
> harsh but the people who enthuse with oblivion are
those who never even
> learned of DF ('cos Arena is out there fo all and
was good but quite plain
> in terms of content -- the only thing missing in DF
from Arena, IMHO, is the
> interesting scenery between cities, as in DF it is
not as varied). So, if we
> randomize MW/Oblivion to make new cities and huge
dungeones and then
> obviously add more guilds, some "work", set "asking
directions" (instead of
> being led by the hand), then perhaps we can get a
new evolved DF. Contrary
> to what Bethesda has been doing (reducing
randomization) I think the way
> forward is to bring it back.
>
>> Heyrab
>>
>>

TES has created what we might call a role-play
"museum". Each sequel of the game
illustrates not only the state of RPG at the time of
publishing, but marks an example of
what is possible with that particular level of
technology.

When Morrowind was on the drawingboard there were a
very popular survey where they
asked for your opinion, complaints and wishes for the
new game.

one complaints concerned the limited vocalisation,
another the standardize options of
communication - and yet another wished for a less
degree of randomization of the
dungeons, or rather the quests

Each game has been a showcase for the new level of
technology, and with the speed of
development this has - unfortunate for us - called
for a serious upgrade more often than
not. I do not mind this. But what I do mind, is when
this takes precedence over just plain
roleplsying fun.

But ir makes for a collection showing what different
periods within the roleplaying universe
were - and is - capable of. It would be naive to
expect this to change in the future.

Another change is nearing completion - the new
dirext10 engine, that shows off the qualities
of dual core and other improvements - and will
probably compare to our current systems and
XP as XP compared to Windows. It will most probably
require all of us to not only upgrade
bud get a completely new rig.

I am not saying that this is a certainty. I don't
know this that well, but Bethesda's work until
now and 'Murphy's Law' tells me to better be prepared

merlin
 >> Stay informed about: Oblivion Grumble 

"Merlin" <bech_dokNOSPAM DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4505271b$0$14016$edfadb0f@dread15.news.tele.dk...
>
> "Pi" <pinospam DeleteThis @none.com> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:sXsFg.10576$kO3.5473@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
> >
> > "Captain Heyrab" <Captain_underscore_Heyrab DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:HtidnfgGl71930DZnZ2dnUVZ_qGdnZ2d@comcast.com...
> >> "Nyctolops" <nyctolops DeleteThis @vla.nospam.com> wrote in message
> >> news:2p4od2p4ch0rk5m5f0o08ua5sf7fd7t9c8@4ax.com...
> >>> On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 18:24:20 GMT, "Pi" <pinospam DeleteThis @none.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >> My feeling is that graphics are nice but games are
>> >>
> >>
>
> When Morrowind was on the drawingboard there were a very popular survey
> where they
> asked for your opinion, complaints and wishes for the new game.
>

I definitely agree that Bethesda did listen to what people wanted. Although
I
totally hated the idea behind the Cthullu game and I've kind of moved on
from Star Trek,
I do appreciate that they still find the time to look to the TES gamers and
listen in, and as long as they
keep the legacy of this series without spending too much time on projects
that are money-makers but
I couldn't care less for, it's fair enough. I do believe that many people
wanted to see a lot of the following things
you mention in Oblivion...


> one complaints concerned the limited vocalisation, another the
> standardize options of
> communication - and yet another wished for a less degree of randomization
> of the
> dungeons, or rather the quests
>

.... although they were exaclty the opposite of what I had asked for

I loved the extended linkable text of MW, and I wish it was even longer,
more detailed.
I loved those mods where unique conversations were given to NPCs in each
area, which, after
the other "people mods" came, made MW more detailed, and interesting. I
would also like to see more of the type
of text quality met in games like Ultima Underworld. Instead we have
vocalisation which I don't mind although at times it becomes a little
distracting; but perhaps
someone could add huge amounts of text MW/UW-style to go with each
character, if someone wishes to become more
involved in a story. (In fact, this is something that if implemented in DF
would have made DF into a super-fantastic world IMO).

I also wish there had been a few puzzles too. It would be definitely
possible to have Myst-like puzzles added to the game, perhaps even some
cute little riddles like in Arena. While there is some thinking involved in
the stories, and they are more complex than before, they are quite plain in
terms of difficulty.

As for the dungeons ... I slightly disagree here that they gave ppl what
they wanted.

I've recently installed DF again, thanks to DosBox's newer version making it
run smoothly on my little Athlon 3800+.
I never used to play DF for too long, due to time constraints, like most
ppl. But whenever I did and do play I feel as if I am lost in another world,
knowing there is so
much more to see. I am sorry but a few pixelated blobs were enough to make
this game into what it is, and all of us who played DF know this...
so what would hurt if Beth had added the randomisation on top of what we
currently have? Because it would simply require a few more stories added to
the randomised areas of Cyrodiil.
A bit more work, and with a few nice touches we could have a lot achieved,
esp. if they added "work in the cities" and a few such. Also, many people do
play the game with the aim
of spending time in the cities, looking around. Why not make a Merchants'
guild, where people spend time making things, taking care of businesses etc?
Yes, there is something in that
respect in Oblivion, but not nearly enough. Anyway, the point is that there
are a lot of quite simple things that could be added to expand the world if
randomisation was allowed, perhaps
implemented in a new way. I think this could solve the size issue which
(despite what the reviewers say) is something fundamental to this type of
game.

Anyway, what I am trying to say is that they were too involved to make this
a next-gen pretty game that they forgot to try and improve on things that
truly matter. Size of dungeons is definitely one
thing. People did not like some of the huge DF dungeons (not me), but IIRC
they DID like the medium-sized ones and I think if we did a poll now ppl
would not be too happy with the tiny ones.
I think all ppl might settle for less but would NOT mind more. As in more
size. NO player would mind seeing Cyrodiil 100 times bigger than it is, and
the same for dungeon size. I don't think Beth
learned their lesson from DF. Some ppl even think they might be sort of
embarassed 'cos it was so buggy (due to the fact that it changed many hands,
presumably).

But I distinctly remember many ppl complaining about the small size of MW's
dungeons.

In a strange way, Beth have gone from the huge world of Arena to once
province in Oblivion.

So what's next in the series? 3D Virtual Reality at Sunhold? (A nice
little southern place in Summerset Isle)



> Each game has been a showcase for the new level of technology, and with
> the speed of
> development this has - unfortunate for us - called for a serious upgrade
> more often than
> not. I do not mind this. But what I do mind, is when

You wait until "Sunhold" comes up with one dungeon and two mage guild
quests, that are also the main quest, and then I tell you

> this takes precedence over just plain
> roleplsying fun.
>

Yes. And in fact with so many nice possibilities of having a few added
puzzles into the RPGing. DF needed more, but at leas the RPing element was
there. One other thing I liked
was that the whole lore took back stage to your adventuring. The size of the
thing, with cleverly interspersed stories among the various guilds and
cleverly randomised quests that change
for each one of us, made good use of the Lore, but mainly in the main story
without concentrating too much in it except in books. MW kind of overdid it
I think in that respect, although all this
is fine by me as long as there's so much going on you feel at awe, truly
lost in a huge world.

> But ir makes for a collection showing what different periods within the
> roleplaying universe
> were - and is - capable of. It would be naive to expect this to change in
> the future.
>

We don't have to throw something away just 'cos it's old. Take text
adventures. There's still ppl going at it, writing and playing nice text
adventures that many
ppl today have never even heard of. Well unless you finish one you cannot
appreciate what it can give you, how it can increase your imagination and
even your writing skills, not to mention sharpen
the mind. We could learn from these stories and incorporate some elements
into a world ... I mean, this whole thing should be going in the direction
of "let us improve upon the Tamriel world" whereas
we just see a rather more prosaic approach here. And the other thing is that
we are not THAT old; computer games have not been around for centuries.
Especially when we are dealing with the same world, like Tamriel, we should
try a more holistic approach and get a more complete universe over time, not
just another "game". In fact, it would have been so much nicer if they had
made each new game an update of the previous one. Why not? Microsoft do it,
and why not here? We could have a new version of the Tamriel universe.

I guess once that Tamriel Rebuilt mod is done I will stop grumbling .

I also wish someone would write a mod that would be DF with Oblivion
graphics .



> Another change is nearing completion - the new dirext10 engine, that
> shows off the qualities
> of dual core and other improvements - and will probably compare to our
> current systems and
> XP as XP compared to Windows. It will most probably require all of us to
> not only upgrade
> bud get a completely new rig.
>

I did hear about that. With the little I had, I got a simple Velocity Micro
rig that does the job for Oblivion. If they want us to upgrade again, which
they will for "Vista" (whose bugs would even make DF proud), then they can
stuff their new toys unless this time they deliver true quality. Quality is
when ppl have not seen 3D and you go and write an incredibly complex game
with immersive storyline, best atmosphere and great fun; oh and introduce 3D
as well (UW). But Murphy's Law again: it wasn't as successful and friggin'
dumb Doom got the credit (or was it Wolferstein?) But UW was there first,
kudos to Origin and Lord British . Quality is living in a world of meagre
games where only a few online MUDs were worth your time when you throw to
the world at large a universe called Tamriel (Arena); the moment I left the
shimmering gate and was introduced to the world I was almost in tears, as I
couldn't believe that this was possible.

> I am not saying that this is a certainty. I don't know this that well,
> but Bethesda's work until
> now and 'Murphy's Law' tells me to better be prepared
>

Yeah Well, perhaps things will be better because Beth did raise the
standards in quality. Perhaps this time they will decide to for something
huge. If not, the message is quite clear: we will deliver better updated
systems with nice complex modding tools and you guys will do the work.

Therefore, my dream is this: I wake up one morning, rush to uesp.net and
find listed a new massive mod called Daggerfall.esp

A rather late-night-working (ahem)
Pi
> merlin
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Oblivion Grumble 

Bethesda has always released their Elder Scrolls games for "future
hardware". I had performance issues with Daggerfall when it was originally
released. I had to upgrade to get it rolling smooth. Same with Morrowind.
Same with Oblivion. This is not new.

Daggerfall still rules, though. DOSBox 0.72 run it incredibly!

"Kathy" <kasia.RemoveThis@netsync.net> wrote in message
news:aid092d056c582tg96578dedve4en8dj85@4ax.com...
> Hey do they believe everyone can afford to upgrade systems? Oblivion
> is for a Pentium 4 and on DVD only, I don't rate that high and I don't
> own a dvd player for the computer; have a stand alone only and
> couldn't play it on this anyway and I would have to do a major upgrade
> to play it and then no more any of my other games.
>
> Kathy G.
 >> Stay informed about: Oblivion Grumble