Nintendo DS sticks a sword down PS3's throat - DRAGON QUES..

Rob Browning wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 14:21:20 -0500, "sanjian" <sanjian.RemoveThis@widomaker.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Rob Browning wrote:
>>> On 13 Dec 2006 14:13:02 -0700, Eric Schwartz <emschwar.RemoveThis@pobox.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> This recent trend of making games for portables which
>>>>> don't fit with this philosophy annoys the hell out of me.
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, it sucks when people make you buy games you don't want to
>>>> play.
>>>
>>> No, it sucks when people put games I want to play on systems that
>>> they don't belong on.
>>
>> And how do we know what BELONGS on which system?
>
> I think I already mentioned that.

And your authority is derived from?
 >> Stay informed about: Nintendo DS sticks a sword down PS3's throat - DRAGON QUES.. 

On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 18:00:53 -0500, sanjian wrote:
> Rob Browning wrote:
>> On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 14:21:20 -0500, "sanjian" <sanjian.DeleteThis@widomaker.com>
>> wrote:
>>> And how do we know what BELONGS on which system?
>>
>> I think I already mentioned that.
>
> And your authority is derived from?

His authority derives from his argument (that different types of gaming
system have different properties, and hence support different styles of
games). So, if you want to challenge his authority, you're going to have
to address his argument.
 >> Stay informed about: Nintendo DS sticks a sword down PS3's throat - DRAGON QUES.. 

I V wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 18:00:53 -0500, sanjian wrote:
>> Rob Browning wrote:
>>> On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 14:21:20 -0500, "sanjian"
>>> <sanjian.TakeThisOut@widomaker.com> wrote:
>>>> And how do we know what BELONGS on which system?
>>>
>>> I think I already mentioned that.
>>
>> And your authority is derived from?
>
> His authority derives from his argument (that different types of
> gaming system have different properties, and hence support different
> styles of games). So, if you want to challenge his authority, you're
> going to have to address his argument.

And yet he has yet to show why we should care what he thinks about which
properties matter, and which don't. Astrobiochemist points out, quite
accurately, that there IS room for certain types of games, such as RPGs
(which are the very types of games that Rob thinks don't belong on
portables) in the DS market. Hell, I enjoyed Lunar, as well as FFT on the
GBA. But I guess they don't BELONG there. Yay! I'm a hertic!
 >> Stay informed about: Nintendo DS sticks a sword down PS3's throat - DRAGON QUES.. 

In article <sgptn29c9uo63no1k8ugo9t0p4enqi9n45 RemoveThis @4ax.com>, Rob Browning wrote:
>On 12 Dec 2006 00:32:53 -0800, "AirRaid" <AirRaid1500 RemoveThis @gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>TALK ABOUT A MEGATON
>
>Wow, how stupid. Putting a main-line title from one of the most
>popular video-game franchises on a portable? And right after they
>decided to bring the series' look to a modern-day level? What the
>hell is Squenix thinking? (Probably the same thing it was thinking
>when it decided to make one of its other major series' iterations an
>MMORPG; that is to say, nothing.)
>
If you think Final Fantasy XI was a failure, you're much mistaken.
You may not have liked it, but it has been and still is very much
a success. 500,000 monthly subscriptions is not anybody's definition
of failure.

--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"
 >> Stay informed about: Nintendo DS sticks a sword down PS3's throat - DRAGON QUES.. 

On 14 Dec 2006 15:58:44 -0800, "Astrobiochemist" <CCSBeyond.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>> >>> And how do we know what BELONGS on which system?
>> >>
>> >> I think I already mentioned that.
>> >
>> > And your authority is derived from?
>>
>> His authority derives from his argument (that different types of gaming
>> system have different properties, and hence support different styles of
>> games). So, if you want to challenge his authority, you're going to have
>> to address his argument.
>
>Except that if a game is an exclusive release for a system, you would
>think that it would be programmed so it would work well on that system.
>
>This also ignores the idea that there is an untapped market for certain
>types of games for certain systems (i.e. an RPG game that can be taken
>with you, which would be perfect for an RPG game player who is
>constantly on the go) and that a videogame company creates a agem in
>order to tap that market.

Funny, that's exactly what gets played in my Micro most often. I keep
an RPG in there, and just do a screen or a battle or two whenever I
find myself wiht an extra 5 mintues or so. I'm fighitng my way
through lunar legend right now. Before that it was FFII, and Golden
SUns.

RPGS with save points and the like, are almost ideally suited for this
platform.
--
"Lyrical Tokarev! Kill them All!" - Touge Chan
Abraham Evangelista
 >> Stay informed about: Nintendo DS sticks a sword down PS3's throat - DRAGON QUES.. 

On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 13:51:51 -0500, Rob Browning
<pluvius3 DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 03:06:12 GMT, Abraham Evangelista
><daken DeleteThis @verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 16:08:26 -0500, Rob Browning
>><pluvius3 DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> and an unergonomic design at home when a
>>
>>Woo. Tried one lately? Nintendo and friends have been spending
>>serious dollars on ergonomics. I'd argue that the video game industry
>>on the whole score better on ergonomics than almost any other
>>industry. Certainly better than big box PC retailers.
>
>Sorry, but it's physically impossible to make a system that's both
>portable enough to fit well in a pocket and at the same time is as
>comfortable to manipulate as a console controller or keyboard/mouse

You don't NEED anything as complex as a keyboard/mouse combo for most
portable games, or even for most console games. And really if it
comes to that, comfort in the ergonomic sense is subjective at best. I
at least have never found a handheld's control system to be so onerous
as to spoil the experience, but I'm a single datapoint, and I'm sure
there's plenty enough out there who don't like them. (You for
instance.) Of course Nintendo has sold millions of these things,
which does lend more than a little weight to their design prowess.

Of course Nintendo has gone through countless revisions (Oh, I'm
lying... What, 3 versions of the GBA, and two of the DS now?) of the
gameboy platform. What they have works more than well enough to
ensure more than healthy acceptance.

But I've got to give it to you on customization. At least with a
PC/Console you can pick your controller.

>setup or as easy on the eyes as a moderately sized TV or monitor. I've

I've no more difficulty with my DS than I do with my TV or Monitor,
and my eyes are TERRIBLE. (Or is that perhaps why? I mean, my
prescription is up to date...)

>tried the DS and it doesn't break those rules.

IF it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you.

>>But barring a Notebook, your PC or Console is where you put it. Your
>>portable is where you put YOU. Wanna game in the kitchen? How about
>>sitting in the sunroom? Back porch? In the bedroom? On the can?
>
>What makes you think I'm talking about the location? That's only one
>part of the comfort equation, and a relatively minor one at that. If

Maybe for you. Location is HUGE for me. More so than just about any
other factor really.

>I have to hunch over the thing and contort my hands to play it,

....it means you're holding it wrong.

>it
>doesn't matter if I'm in a frigging meadow; it's still not going to be
>comfortable.
>
>>>Because of this, portable
>>>games are supposed to be quick to play and enjoy during the time you
>>>spend on the subway or a ten-minute coffee break.
>>
>>To a lesser extent I agree with you. Some games are a little bit time
>>consuming, which might hurt their viability on a portable platform.
>>
>>But that's nothing that a save file can't fix.
>
>It is if you don't allow the player to save where ever he wants, which
>is the case with console RPGs.

Is the case with POORLY PROGRAMMED console RPGs which won't fare any
better on a handheld than they will on a console. This is why ports
often don't fare as well.

If you're going to put a game on a portable, make the concessions
necessary to make it work on that format! Thankfully, most RPGs are
pretty good about that. Classic arcade, and platformers sadly, fare
less well. But games designed with intent for a portable format
rarely make that mistake.

>And besides that, save files still
>don't fix the problem of not feeling like you've accomplished anything
>after your ten minutes of play. Not many console RPGs can give you
>that sense of accomplishment in that short amount of time.

That's more a question of pacing, and obsessive behavior. If you're
the type that likes to grind levels, I suppose longer sessions work
well. Personally I hate to grind, so a battle or two here and there
keeps the monotony down, and the game mostly fresh. I'd probably
never have finished Golden Suns if I had been able to play it straight
through.

Of course in contrast, if a player is the type looking for quick
gratification, RPGS are probably not the best choice in genre anyway,
right?
--
"Lyrical Tokarev! Kill them All!" - Touge Chan
Abraham Evangelista
 >> Stay informed about: Nintendo DS sticks a sword down PS3's throat - DRAGON QUES.. 

Rob Browning <pluvius3.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> writes:
> And, of course, the problem is that Dragon Quest was never designed
> with intent for a portable format. Doing so now changes the tone of
> the series.

You seem awfully sure about that for a game that isn't even written
yet.

> >Of course in contrast, if a player is the type looking for quick
> >gratification, RPGS are probably not the best choice in genre anyway,
> >right?
>
> They're not the best choice in genre for a system which is designed
> for quick gratification. Exactly my point.

Perhaps the system was not designed for quick gratification, but for
portability. I know, it's a stretch to consider a portable gaming
system to be designed around that idea, but work with me here. Just
because portable games, in the past, have been designed around the
type of gaming that you prefer on them doesn't mean that it's an
inherent limitation of the platform; it simply means that there's been
a convention in the past. FF3, and now DQ9, are changing that.

-=Eric
 >> Stay informed about: Nintendo DS sticks a sword down PS3's throat - DRAGON QUES.. 

"Rob Browning" <pluvius3 RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ru93o2phtm5qmqlio9kktm5a1ci232tt83@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 17:42:24 GMT, "El Guapo" <plethora RemoveThis @pinatas.com>
> wrote:
>
>>"Rob Browning" <pluvius3 RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:rbm0o2lvnqt10skda5pquid4h77aril1mo@4ax.com...
>>> On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 19:12:40 GMT, "El Guapo" <plethora RemoveThis @pinatas.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>consoles. Why in the world would they want to force people to buy a
>>>>console
>>>>they don't want, just to play their game? Maybe people would, but maybe
>>>
>>> Good question; why would Squenix want to force people to buy DSes just
>>> to play their game?
>>
>>Come on, how much of a problem is that? DS had sold over 26 million
>>worldwide by the end of September, and sold nearly a million more in the
>>US
>
> The PS2 has sold well over 100 million units worldwide, while the GBA
> stands at a little over 75 million. While a good number of the PS2
> sales were replacements, a good number of the GBAs were as well due to
> the SP superceding the original version. That still leaves the
> install base of the PS2 at least a few million higher than that of the
> GBA. And that's not even counting the XBox or the GameCube, both of
> which have bases numbering in the tens of millions. This suggests (to
> what should be the surprise of no one) that a lot of people who own
> consoles have little interest in portable systems. And that's not
> even mentioning the fact that despite all of its disadvantages and
> negative reputation, the PSP still withholds a large chunk of the
> current-gen portable marketshare from the DS, while the GBA was
> uncontested.
>
> And the only reason why the DS appears to be such a big seller in
> comparison to the next-gen consoles is because it's already been
> around for two years and has already went through one revision. Wait
> a couple of years before you start comparing the sales of the DS
> directly with the sales of the next-gen systems.


So what? Obviously they are concerned with the current generation, not the
last. Right now the DS has a huge lead and is unlikely to relinquish it any
time soon. Can you say the same about the Wii? The 360? The PS3? The
PSP?

Whether the console business and portable business overlaps is of little
concern to Square Enix, as long as they believe that the majority of their
Dragon Quest customers own or will own a DS. They are probably also looking
at which platform is best to grow popularity for the game in the future,
which means which system is most popular with kids and younger gamers. That
makes it an even easier choice.


>>> What you said is a problem no matter what console Squenix releases
>>> their games on. The only real solution is for them to stop making
>>> their games console-exclusive.
>>
>>They don't do that with DQ, instead they deliberately concentrate their
>
> Then why are they saying that DQ9 will only be released on the DS?
> That's the definition of "exclusive."

Meaning, they don't try to make the game for multiple consoles, and they
don't want to. DQ is *always* exclusive.
 >> Stay informed about: Nintendo DS sticks a sword down PS3's throat - DRAGON QUES.. 

"Rob Browning" <pluvius3 DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:o4s5o2h4658b24necvemc2bkr5onana4r8@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 14:55:31 GMT, "El Guapo" <plethora DeleteThis @pinatas.com>
> wrote:
>
>>"Rob Browning" <pluvius3 DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:ru93o2phtm5qmqlio9kktm5a1ci232tt83@4ax.com...
>>> On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 17:42:24 GMT, "El Guapo" <plethora DeleteThis @pinatas.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Rob Browning" <pluvius3 DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:rbm0o2lvnqt10skda5pquid4h77aril1mo@4ax.com...
>>>>> On Wed, 13 Dec 2006 19:12:40 GMT, "El Guapo" <plethora DeleteThis @pinatas.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>consoles. Why in the world would they want to force people to buy a
>>>>>>console
>>>>>>they don't want, just to play their game? Maybe people would, but
>>>>>>maybe
>>>>>
>>>>> Good question; why would Squenix want to force people to buy DSes just
>>>>> to play their game?
>>>>
>>>>Come on, how much of a problem is that? DS had sold over 26 million
>>>>worldwide by the end of September, and sold nearly a million more in the
>>>>US
>>>
>>> The PS2 has sold well over 100 million units worldwide, while the GBA
>>> stands at a little over 75 million. While a good number of the PS2
>>> sales were replacements, a good number of the GBAs were as well due to
>>> the SP superceding the original version. That still leaves the
>>> install base of the PS2 at least a few million higher than that of the
>>> GBA. And that's not even counting the XBox or the GameCube, both of
>>> which have bases numbering in the tens of millions. This suggests (to
>>> what should be the surprise of no one) that a lot of people who own
>>> consoles have little interest in portable systems. And that's not
>>> even mentioning the fact that despite all of its disadvantages and
>>> negative reputation, the PSP still withholds a large chunk of the
>>> current-gen portable marketshare from the DS, while the GBA was
>>> uncontested.
>>>
>>> And the only reason why the DS appears to be such a big seller in
>>> comparison to the next-gen consoles is because it's already been
>>> around for two years and has already went through one revision. Wait
>>> a couple of years before you start comparing the sales of the DS
>>> directly with the sales of the next-gen systems.
>>
>>
>>So what? Obviously they are concerned with the current generation, not
>>the
>>last. Right now the DS has a huge lead and is unlikely to relinquish it
>>any
>
> And so you missed my point. I brought up the last generation to show
> you what this generation will probably be like.

You really think this generation will look like the last? I certainly
don't, and I'm not sure why you would. The overall console numbers may be
the same, but they will be split more evenly over the consoles, and worse
for developers, between markets. Right now the 360 has a big lead in the
US, but is practically dead in Japan. The Wii is selling in all markets
right now, but it is an unproven concept, and the PS3? It will probably
sell in Japan, though probably not in the numbers the PS2 did. It might
also end up selling well in the US, but the price and the 360 lead makes
that far from a given.

Will this generation look like the last, with one console having a huge
share of the market in pretty much every country in the world? Not a
chance.

>>Whether the console business and portable business overlaps is of little
>>concern to Square Enix, as long as they believe that the majority of their
>>Dragon Quest customers own or will own a DS. They are probably also
>>looking
>
> Doesn't that mean by definition that Squenix is concerned about
> whether or not the console and portable markets overlap?

No, I think they are concerned about which system will have the largest
installed base of DQ fans.

>>>>> What you said is a problem no matter what console Squenix releases
>>>>> their games on. The only real solution is for them to stop making
>>>>> their games console-exclusive.
>>>>
>>>>They don't do that with DQ, instead they deliberately concentrate their
>>>
>>> Then why are they saying that DQ9 will only be released on the DS?
>>> That's the definition of "exclusive."
>>
>>Meaning, they don't try to make the game for multiple consoles, and they
>>don't want to. DQ is *always* exclusive.
>
> And I said that the only way to fix this current problem is to stop
> making it exclusive. What was the point of your reply?

The point is that they don't see it as a problem, it's business as usual.
Get it?
 >> Stay informed about: Nintendo DS sticks a sword down PS3's throat - DRAGON QUES.. 

Rob Browning wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 18:00:53 -0500, "sanjian" <sanjian DeleteThis @widomaker.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Rob Browning wrote:
>>> On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 14:21:20 -0500, "sanjian"
>>> <sanjian DeleteThis @widomaker.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Rob Browning wrote:
>>>>> On 13 Dec 2006 14:13:02 -0700, Eric Schwartz <emschwar DeleteThis @pobox.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> This recent trend of making games for portables which
>>>>>>> don't fit with this philosophy annoys the hell out of me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yeah, it sucks when people make you buy games you don't want to
>>>>>> play.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, it sucks when people put games I want to play on systems that
>>>>> they don't belong on.
>>>>
>>>> And how do we know what BELONGS on which system?
>>>
>>> I think I already mentioned that.
>>
>> And your authority is derived from?
>
> The differences between the portable and console markets? The
> differences between portables and consoles themselves? Or maybe just
> common sense? Take your pick.

I've found that many appeals to "common sense" are just like "everybody
knows." That is to say, an attempt to cover for utter bullshit.

There is nothing about a portable gaming system that even remotely suggests
that it cannot be a system for serious games. The GBA is at least as
powerful as the SNES, which is what I played Chrono Trigger and FF6 on.
From what those in this group have said, the DS is as powerful as the PSX,
which is where FF7 and Xenogears were released. Hell, I'm currently
enjoying replaying Lunar on my GBA. Remember Lunar, commonly considered to
be one of the best RPGs made?

Other than the size of the system, and the addition of a battery, there is
no differene between these classics on their original platform, and on the
portable - except that some of them have been updated to become more modern.

By the next generation of portables, I should be able to replay Eternal
Arcada - which is tied with the first Grandia as my all-time favorite RPG.

Not bad for a format that RPGs don't BELONG on.
 >> Stay informed about: Nintendo DS sticks a sword down PS3's throat - DRAGON QUES.. 

Rob Browning wrote:
> On 14 Dec 2006 15:58:44 -0800, "Astrobiochemist" <CCSBeyond RemoveThis @yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>>>>>> And how do we know what BELONGS on which system?
>>>>>
>>>>> I think I already mentioned that.
>>>>
>>>> And your authority is derived from?
>>>
>>> His authority derives from his argument (that different types of
>>> gaming system have different properties, and hence support
>>> different styles of games). So, if you want to challenge his
>>> authority, you're going to have to address his argument.
>>
>> Except that if a game is an exclusive release for a system, you would
>> think that it would be programmed so it would work well on that
>> system.
>
> Part of the problem is that for a Dragon Quest game to be programmed
> so it will work well on the DS, it would have to be significantly
> different from other Dragon Quest games. You shouldn't make dramatic
> changes to a numbered series, especially when it's one that has been
> notably anti-evolution like DQ has.

You mean like DQ 7 and preceeding, all of which were on systems inferior to
the DS, except for 7, which was on par?

The only difference between having it on the DS and on the PS3 is it won't
be as pretty.
 >> Stay informed about: Nintendo DS sticks a sword down PS3's throat - DRAGON QUES.. 

Rob Browning wrote:

> On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 03:06:12 GMT, Abraham Evangelista
> <daken DeleteThis @verizon.net> wrote:
> > But that's nothing that a save file can't fix.
>
> It is if you don't allow the player to save where ever he wants, which
> is the case with console RPGs.

Valkyrie Profile does this, yet it works just fine on the PSP. Play
for a while, shut it off. When I turn it back on, I'm right back where
I was. Works even in combat.

--
Mike Swaim swaim DeleteThis @hal-pc.org at home | Quote: "Boingie"^4 Y,W & D
MD Anderson Division of Quantitative Sciences
mpswaim DeleteThis @mdanderson.org or mswaim DeleteThis @odin.mdacc.tmc.edu at work
ICBM: 29.763N 95.363W|Disclaimer: Yeah, like I speak for MD Anderson.
 >> Stay informed about: Nintendo DS sticks a sword down PS3's throat - DRAGON QUES.. 

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 21:44:42 +0000, The Eternal Lost Lurker wrote:
>
> Your opinion is precisely and ONLY that: YOUR OPINION.

Wait a second. When you say that his opinion is just his opinion, isn't
that... just your opinion? Why are you presenting it as if it were a fact?

(Free hint - "opinion" and "fact" are not mutually exclusive terms).
 >> Stay informed about: Nintendo DS sticks a sword down PS3's throat - DRAGON QUES..