Newbie GM -- completely concealed doors, traps question

I guess my real problem is that, never having run a game before, I'm
having trouble figuring out how to balance the adventure between too
challenging and too easy. I'm running Grimtooth's Dungeon of Doom
because I played it way back in 2nd Ed. and really enjoyed it. Our GM
then (and I don't know him any more, or I'd run these types of
questions by him) made us all 8th level, but we all got one really
great magic item of our choice (no duplicates allowed). So, I offered
the same to my players, and one of them chose a Robe of Eyes.

This robe is less valuable (monetarily) than some of the items we got
back when I played the adventure, so I said okay. I looked over the
DCs in the adventure, though, and based on them, he can find each and
every trap in this dungeon without rolling. Agh. I don't want to take
away his magic item, but then, I don't want this game too be too easy,
either. Don't get me wrong -- there are other ways for him to die or
ruin the adventure. For example, a lot of the traps, when disarmed,
will also prohibit the party from moving forward in the dungeon.

I'm using the updated 3.5 version of the dungeon that Necromancer Games
came out with, and I really think the DCs are too low for a lot of
things, but then as only 8th level, they should be reasonably
challenging. However, since this is a trap-heavy dungeon, I can't have
them just waltzing through the place thanks to a Robe of Eyes. So, I
was trying to think of some ways to toughen up the adventure without
necessarily raising most of the DCs. Like finding the doors that are
behind stucco -- maybe they can only find them if they use Detect Magic
(since most of those doors have low-level spells on them) or by
chipping away at the stucco (which they'll eventually learn to do to
the walls on a regular basis).

There are some traps that actually perform from behind the stucco.
Like, there's a sawblade trap that comes out from the middle of a wall
to hopefully cut some poor adventurer in half at his midsection. The
slit it would come out of is covered in stucco, just like the
surrounding wall. There are also crossbow bolts that fire right
through small holes in a wall, and the holes are covered only by
stucco. How are these supposed to be found by an adventurer? Keep in
mind this entire dungeon was built by Grimtooth (trap-maker
extraordinaire), an epic-level mage, and a bunch of dwarven
mastercraftsmen. I see DCs on these traps in the 20s, and I think,
"How can it be that easy?" So I thought maybe for the stuff that's
hidden behind stone and/or stucco, there is no DC...? Or it's insanely
high?

There's also a trap that has a magical sensor that senses when people
are 30 feet away, and then the trap is triggered. There's no way a
character can possibly find this trap or it's trigger, because you have
to be within 5 ft. of a trap to Search for it. How do I handle that?
Will my players call foul if I don't give them a chance to Search for a
trap/trigger?

Oy...perhaps GMing is over my head.
 >> Stay informed about: Newbie GM -- completely concealed doors, traps question 

If a door is so completely hidden that the party has absolutely no
chance offinding it, you might as well call that 'door' a wall and save
yourself the trouble. However, any door that has seen recent use
(recent, as in within the last several months) might have some telltale
traces left behind. So if the bad guys can use the door, the PCs should
be able to detect it if they have high enough Search bonuses.

Traps are still mechanical devices, and can be identified by experience
and by their parts. And a rogue does not need to know exactly what a
trap does to bypass the trap -- he only needs to foil the trigger
mechanism.

As for the 'random button -- DO NOT TOUCH' syndrome (where the PCs WILL
touch the button ten times out of ten), if the mechanism is truly
hidden from all senses, then the PCs should just *not* *touch* *the*
*button*. If they do, they *deserve* anything you dump on them.
 >> Stay informed about: Newbie GM -- completely concealed doors, traps question 

ArchitectofSleep wrote:
> I guess my real problem is that, never having run a game before, I'm
> having trouble figuring out how to balance the adventure between too
> challenging and too easy. I'm running Grimtooth's Dungeon of Doom
> because I played it way back in 2nd Ed. and really enjoyed it. Our GM
> then (and I don't know him any more, or I'd run these types of
> questions by him) made us all 8th level, but we all got one really
> great magic item of our choice (no duplicates allowed). So, I offered
> the same to my players, and one of them chose a Robe of Eyes.
>
> This robe is less valuable (monetarily) than some of the items we got
> back when I played the adventure, so I said okay. I looked over the
> DCs in the adventure, though, and based on them, he can find each and
> every trap in this dungeon without rolling. Agh. I don't want to take
> away his magic item, but then, I don't want this game too be too easy,
> either. Don't get me wrong -- there are other ways for him to die or
> ruin the adventure. For example, a lot of the traps, when disarmed,
> will also prohibit the party from moving forward in the dungeon.
Are you sure about the the robe being less valuable? In 3.5 ed, the
/robe of eyes/ is worth 120,000 gp, thats one hundred and twenty
thousand gold pieces. PCs should not have a single item worth so much
gold pieces until about 17th level at least.

At 8th level, the total gp worth of a player should only be about
27,000 gp, and they should not have items worth more than 9000 gp
except for special reasons.

I think we have found your problem. I suggest you ask for a *time out*
OOC, and just ask your player to choose a new item of around 12000 gp
worth instead.

OTOH, your player could still choose a improved goggles of minute
seeing (+10 competence bonus to Search checks, worth 10000 gp) or
something similar, that also grants +10 bonus to Search checks. In that
case, he choose well for this adventure. Congratulate him, and let him
shine. The item will not help him in other situations, so there is no
issue of other players being rendered useless. As long as everybody has
fun, let the players strut their stuff a bit is part of the DM's art.

> I'm using the updated 3.5 version of the dungeon that Necromancer Games
> came out with, and I really think the DCs are too low for a lot of
> things, but then as only 8th level, they should be reasonably
> challenging. However, since this is a trap-heavy dungeon, I can't have
> them just waltzing through the place thanks to a Robe of Eyes. So, I
> was trying to think of some ways to toughen up the adventure without
> necessarily raising most of the DCs. Like finding the doors that are
> behind stucco -- maybe they can only find them if they use Detect Magic
> (since most of those doors have low-level spells on them) or by
> chipping away at the stucco (which they'll eventually learn to do to
> the walls on a regular basis).
Acceptable. I would just add a +4, +6 or +10 bonus to the Search DC,
depending on how much I *want* the PCs to fail this particular trap.
However, I would never rule a trap to be unfindable -- just very
difficult to find.

Perhaps +10 DC if they do not have detect magic, or if they do not chip
away the stucco. If they do, the DC drops down to normal. However,
expect that game to grind down a bit as the PCs search every room,
scrape ever wall, rest every 120 ft or so to regain spells etc.

You can certainly do so to spice up the game, just don't overdo it.
Plus, see the response below.

> There are some traps that actually perform from behind the stucco.
> Like, there's a sawblade trap that comes out from the middle of a wall
> to hopefully cut some poor adventurer in half at his midsection. The
> slit it would come out of is covered in stucco, just like the
> surrounding wall. There are also crossbow bolts that fire right
> through small holes in a wall, and the holes are covered only by
> stucco. How are these supposed to be found by an adventurer? Keep in
> mind this entire dungeon was built by Grimtooth (trap-maker
> extraordinaire), an epic-level mage, and a bunch of dwarven
> mastercraftsmen. I see DCs on these traps in the 20s, and I think,
> "How can it be that easy?" So I thought maybe for the stuff that's
> hidden behind stone and/or stucco, there is no DC...? Or it's insanely
> high?
20s is not easy for a an average 8th level rogue character. 11 ranks +
1 Wis = +12 bonus to the search check. Such character will fail to find
a DC 22 trap 1/2 of the time. Even a through search -- take 20 -- will
only give a check result of 32.

More importantly, finding a trap is just half the game. They must also
*Disable* the trap, which will spring if they fail the check by 5 or
more. In some ways, a trap that they *find* but fail to disable is even
*more* fun, since if they triggered a trap with knowing it, its just
the DM saying "Jhoan, you take xx damge." If a PCs find the trap, the
PCs can then use their resources to try to 'defeat' the trap encounter.
And that is what D&D is all about.

Don't worry of the PCs finding too many of your traps. Actually, if
they DON'T find your traps before springing them, they might get
frustrated and feels as if your are just hurting their characters
randomly. LET the players find your trap. Describe the blood thirsty
traps mechanism to your heart's delight. LAUGH as the PC roll a perfect
5-below-trap-DC and work their way towards their own DOOM! Mwa ha ha ha
ha!

*ahem* Anyways, don't worry about it. A high search check will only
allow yout to draw out the fun. It is always better if the PCs see
their doom fall upon them -- there panic and fear is what a DM lives
for.

> There's also a trap that has a magical sensor that senses when people
> are 30 feet away, and then the trap is triggered. There's no way a
> character can possibly find this trap or it's trigger, because you have
> to be within 5 ft. of a trap to Search for it. How do I handle that?
> Will my players call foul if I don't give them a chance to Search for a
> trap/trigger?
Use a spot check instead, then. If the PCs succeed on their (fairly
easy) spot check, they see 'something' on the opposite wall. Of course,
if they 'go over to check it out' the trap triggers on them. And they'd
deserve it. :]

If they use some other method, such as a dispel magic on the
'something', shine a bull-eye latern one the 'something' etc., rule
accordingly. For example, a successful dispel magic would likely
suppress the trap, of not dispel it outright. A bulls-eye lantern can
illuminate a 60 ft. cone (120 ft for elves). That might be enough for
the party wizard to recognize the trigger with a Spellcraft or
Knowledge (arcana) check. There are many ways to defeat the trap beyond
searching.

Trust your players' creativity -- especially when their lives are one
the line. :]

> Oy...perhaps GMing is over my head.
Not at all. A few sessions and you will be RBDMing with the best of
them.

Happy gaming!
Yanei Wu
 >> Stay informed about: Newbie GM -- completely concealed doors, traps question 

Dude, you are *evil*. I appreciate all the advice. I think I'm
over-thinking things.

And as for the magic items the other GM let us have, yeah, they were
valuable. One of us had a Ring of Elemental Command (Air) and I had a
Ring of Elemental Command (Earth). Those are each worth 200,000 gp.

Again, thank you for your input.
 >> Stay informed about: Newbie GM -- completely concealed doors, traps question 

Oh, btw, I think it's Int that attaches to the Search DC, not Wis.
This guy has a 20 natural -- 11 base ranks +4 for his Int +2
Investigator feat +3 Skill Focus: Search. Add to that the +10 for the
Robe of Eyes, and his base skill check is 30. Yeesh. But what the
heck, this adventure is just for fun, and to get my feet wet GMing, and
you're absolutely right: finding the trap is only *half* the battle.
 >> Stay informed about: Newbie GM -- completely concealed doors, traps question 

Ah. My mistake. Search uses Int instead of Wis. Sorry 'bout that.

As for the one great item... well, as long as you are all having fun,
its all okay. But remember that in 3rd ed treasure is an important part
of a PCs power. Giving out too much treasure might result in the PCs
being too powerful.

If I were you, I would reduce everybody to a 20000 gp item instead of
the 200000 gp you are playing by. Just call it a part of the 2nd ed to
3rd ed transition process. Still, this is your game, and the items you
all choose do not seem too broken (if somebody had chosen a +10 total
price bonus weapon, I'd suggest that you just say no). You are the DM
-- you make the call.

A 'Search monkey,' eh. In that case, he should be allowed to expect to
succeed, as he has poured so much of his resources into Search. He is
not as good in other things (such as Disable Device :] ) as he could
be, and that is the price he pays.

There is nothing wrong with a dedicated PCs being extremely good at one
thing, as long as it does not ruin the fun of other players. Have fun!
 >> Stay informed about: Newbie GM -- completely concealed doors, traps question 

Oh, a small tip to you. Sometimes players may get frustrated if you
roll a series of secret Disable Device check and say that they keep
failing. A way around this is the let the player roll, but not let hen
see the *result* of the roll before you describe the result of the
check. Or, you can ask the player to give you a list of pre-rolled
checks, that you can just read off of is series.

When you describe the results of a Disable Device check, don't make it
obvious if they succeeded or failed until the last second.

DM: "Give me a disable device check... hmm hmm... give me a Reflex save
.... mweh heh heh ...

"As you tinker with the pressure plate, you hear a sudden *click*. The
pressure plate drops, trapping your hand between the plate and the
floor, like the jaws of a mousetrap. With a deafening crash a huge
buzzsaw rips forth from the ground before to you, chewing through the
wooden floor like a ravenous bulette...

a [Disable Device successful]) ... only to stop inches from the tip of
little little finger as the saw's murderous energy is spent.

b [DD fail, reflex succeed (assume the trap is reflex half -- rogues
have evasion)]) ... in a split second you twist your body, flipping on
to a one-armed handstand with only a split senond to spare. Pain shoots
up your abused fingers ... but your are successful. The buzzsaw passes
through the space you had just occupied, its blood thristy teeth will
feed on another person this time.

c [DD fail, reflex fail]) ... and you scream as the saw bites into your
exposed arm, and your teammates can only watch in horror as your blood
sprays forth as is from a fountain. Desperately you twist your body --
you've managed to save your arm -- but the pain is near unbearable and
you fight desperately to avoid blacking out. You take 13 points (3d6)
slashing damage (which about 1/3 total hp of a 8th level rogue).
 >> Stay informed about: Newbie GM -- completely concealed doors, traps question 

WuYanei, you are my new hero. I'm going to name my next PC after
you.

I sure hope I can be that suspenseful/wicked/funny/creative when I run
this adventure. You've exactly captured the mood I'm trying to create.
 >> Stay informed about: Newbie GM -- completely concealed doors, traps question 

ArchitectofSleep wrote:
> If there's a hidden door that's completely concealed (so as to be
> invisible) by, say, stucco, would anyone really be able to use a
> Search skill to find it? If so, what kind of DC should I set for it?
> I mean, they can't see the door, they can't feel the door, how can
> they possibly know there's a door there? And this is a really
> well-stuccoed wall and door, btw. Like, if ancient dwarves had
> master-craftsmen stucco-ers, they would have made this. So, it's not
> like there will be seams where the doors edges are. Especially since
> the doors were well-made, too.

The assumption is that the bad guys aren't perfect. If they are, the PCs
don't stand a chance anyway. So even if that secret door is utterly
indistinguishable on sight from the stucco'd wall, there may still be
clues - maybe a scuff mark on the floor that extends under the wall, maybe a
scattering of dust from the corridor beyond that doesn't match the dust on
the floor of this corridor, maybe the little knob of stucco that you push to
open the door has been worn smooth over the years, maybe the wall feels or
sounds different - or maybe, to the really experienced and paranoid
observer, the mere fact that, in this wall area, the stucco is carved such
that you *could* hide a secret door there invisibly is enough of a giveaway.

All these are things that the original designers won't even see as flaws,
unless they themselves have Search bonuses significantly in excess of the
party's dedicated searcher. And that's only likely if their CR is higher
than the party's.

> If a trap's mechanics are basically hidden, like embedded behind a
> thick stone wall for example (and a thin layer of stucco, of course)
> , and the character finds the trigger, under what circumstances can
> they possibly know how the trap works, other than to say, "Um, hey
> guys, this doohickey here does something...but I'm not exactly sure
> what. Should we try it?" I mean, if I set an insanely high DC for
> finding the trap, and the character still finds it thanks to his Robe
> of Eyes or something, how exactly did he see this completely
> concealed (except for the trigger) trap?

He saw the trigger and, through experience, recognised its true nature. And
of course, the trap can't be completely embedded in stone and still work -
some part of it must interact with the party. As above, unless the party are
seriously out of their depth, there will be clues.

--
Mark.
 >> Stay informed about: Newbie GM -- completely concealed doors, traps question 

On 27 Feb 2006 17:24:28 -0800, ArchitectofSleep wrote:

>I guess my real problem is that, never having run a game before, I'm
>having trouble figuring out how to balance the adventure between too
>challenging and too easy. I'm running Grimtooth's Dungeon of Doom
>because I played it way back in 2nd Ed. and really enjoyed it. Our GM
>then (and I don't know him any more, or I'd run these types of
>questions by him) made us all 8th level, but we all got one really
>great magic item of our choice (no duplicates allowed). So, I offered
>the same to my players, and one of them chose a Robe of Eyes.

This is actually your problem here.

Dungeons and Dragons is, essentially, balanced for parties having certain
amounts of treasure based on character level. At 8th level, a character
should have around 27,000gp worth of items and treasure, as per the the
Dungeon Master's Guide, page 135.

A Robe of Eyes costs 120,000gp, and is out of range of any character, by
the same chart, until roughly 14th level. And even then, a Robe of Eyes
would constitute 80% of the character's treasure.


>This robe is less valuable (monetarily) than some of the items we got
>back when I played the adventure, so I said okay. I looked over the
>DCs in the adventure, though, and based on them, he can find each and
>every trap in this dungeon without rolling. Agh. I don't want to take
>away his magic item, but then, I don't want this game too be too easy,
>either. Don't get me wrong -- there are other ways for him to die or
>ruin the adventure. For example, a lot of the traps, when disarmed,
>will also prohibit the party from moving forward in the dungeon.

>I'm using the updated 3.5 version of the dungeon that Necromancer Games
>came out with, and I really think the DCs are too low for a lot of
>things, but then as only 8th level, they should be reasonably
>challenging. However, since this is a trap-heavy dungeon, I can't have
>them just waltzing through the place thanks to a Robe of Eyes. So, I
>was trying to think of some ways to toughen up the adventure without
>necessarily raising most of the DCs. Like finding the doors that are
>behind stucco -- maybe they can only find them if they use Detect Magic
>(since most of those doors have low-level spells on them) or by
>chipping away at the stucco (which they'll eventually learn to do to
>the walls on a regular basis).


You've got a couple of options here.

1) Tell all of the characters that they can only have items up to their
gold limit of Table 5-1 in the DMG. (Possible: You may want to have it as
Level+1 (9th - 36,000gp) or you might say that individual items cannot be
more than 1/2 or 3/4 this amount. I recommend using both of these rules.)

2) Boost the DCs of all of the traps accordingly. I understand that you
don't necessarily want to do this, but that is HOW DMs adjust modules. They
don't change the way that the rules (i.e. Search and Disable Device) work.
They adjust the numbers to make for a challenge. Basically, they SHOULD
have to roll anywhere between 5 and 15 for these things. Grimtooth is
known for traps. If anything, they SHOULD be harder.


>How are these supposed to be found by an adventurer?

There are many ways, as people have been saying elsewhere in this thread.

Mechanically, however, it's simple: they roll a Search check. If the
Search check meets or exceeds the DC of the trap, they find it.


>I see DCs on these traps in the 20s, and I think,
>"How can it be that easy?" So I thought maybe for the stuff that's
>hidden behind stone and/or stucco, there is no DC...? Or it's insanely
>high?

I don't have the Necromancer Games version of Grimtooth's Dungeon of Doom,
but look at the module. Make sure that you're playing at the character
level of the module itself. If you're not, the first thing you need to do
is adjust the DCs on all of the traps by the difference. If the Dungeon of
Doom is supposed to be for first-level characters, bump each DC by 7 points
if you're playing them at 8th level.


Joel
 >> Stay informed about: Newbie GM -- completely concealed doors, traps question 

Nope, the doors have never been used. The dungeon is pristine, virgin
if you will. It's a tomb, and the only living things in it are all
parts of traps. They built the thing, and then stuccoed it on their
way out. And the dungeon/tomb was built thousands of years ago.
 >> Stay informed about: Newbie GM -- completely concealed doors, traps question 

On 27 Feb 2006 15:45:42 -0800, "ArchitectofSleep"
<turbojenn DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:

>If there's a hidden door that's completely concealed (so as to be
>invisible) by, say, stucco, would anyone really be able to use a Search
>skill to find it? If so, what kind of DC should I set for it? I mean,
>they can't see the door, they can't feel the door, how can they
>possibly know there's a door there?

The standard way to search for a secret door is not to look with your
eyes. It's to rap on the walls until you hear a hollow sound.
 >> Stay informed about: Newbie GM -- completely concealed doors, traps question 

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 02:52:41 GMT, rgorman DeleteThis @block.net (David Johnston)
wrote:

>On 27 Feb 2006 15:45:42 -0800, "ArchitectofSleep"
><turbojenn DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>If there's a hidden door that's completely concealed (so as to be
>>invisible) by, say, stucco, would anyone really be able to use a Search
>>skill to find it? If so, what kind of DC should I set for it? I mean,
>>they can't see the door, they can't feel the door, how can they
>>possibly know there's a door there?
>
>The standard way to search for a secret door is not to look with your
>eyes. It's to rap on the walls until you hear a hollow sound.

And even a stucco covered door is not necessarily invisible. If the
door has been used and recovered with stucco before, then there might
be differences in color between the door and the rest of the wall.
There may be traces on the floor where the door scraped against it.
There are bound to be some minor clues on even the most well hidden
doors.
 >> Stay informed about: Newbie GM -- completely concealed doors, traps question