Nether Traitor

On 15 Oct 2006 10:19:00 -0700, Jax <IlGreven.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Nether Traitor -- BB >Creature -- Spirit
>1/1 Haste, Shadow (*)
>Whenever another creature is put into your graveyard from play, you may
>pay B. If you do, return Nether Traitor from your graveyard to play.
>
>OK, if Nether Traitor and another creature hit the 'yard at the same
>time, does his triggered ability trigger, or does the Traitor already
>have to be in the graveyard for it to trigger?

The only things that can 'trigger from your graveyard' _say_ "When Blah, if
~ is in your graveyard, ...". Abilities don't work "from the graveyard" unless
they say they do... so trying to apply a default of "must be in the graveyard
before it can trigger" will get you wildly wrong answers just about all the
time. NT cannot 'trigger from your graveyard' at all.

This is a leaves-play trigger, so triggers based on the state just BEFORE
whatever-it-was left play. If Nether Traitor is leaving play at the same time
as the other creature, then just before that NT was in play, so can trigger
just fine. (In general, "When a Foo leaves play" triggers can trigger just
fine if the Foo leaves play at the same time as whatever the triggered
ability is on.)

If Nether Traitor went to the graveyard FIRST - for instance, if they went
on separate repetitions inside a Forbidden Ritual's resolution - then it
wouldn't be in play any longer to see the other creature go to your graveyard,
so would not be able to trigger.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd.RemoveThis@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 >> Stay informed about: Nether Traitor 

David DeLaney <dbd.RemoveThis@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
>On 15 Oct 2006 10:19:00 -0700, Jax <IlGreven.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>Nether Traitor -- BB >Creature -- Spirit
>>1/1 Haste, Shadow (*)
>>Whenever another creature is put into your graveyard from play, you may
>>pay B. If you do, return Nether Traitor from your graveyard to play.
>>
>>OK, if Nether Traitor and another creature hit the 'yard at the same
>>time, does his triggered ability trigger, or does the Traitor already
>>have to be in the graveyard for it to trigger?
>
>The only things that can 'trigger from your graveyard' _say_ "When Blah, if
>~ is in your graveyard, ...". Abilities don't work "from the graveyard" unless
>they say they do... so trying to apply a default of "must be in the graveyard
>before it can trigger" will get you wildly wrong answers just about all the
>time. NT cannot 'trigger from your graveyard' at all.

Gah, and I didn't READ THE CARD closely enough. I'd cancel the above but
cancelling hasn't worked right on Usenet for years.

The "If you do, return NT from your graveyard to play" turns out to qualify
for "this says it works from the graveyard"... because of an exemption that
_I helped_ put in the rules (so that the rules would work right for things
that other departments were firm about NOT saying "from your graveyard" in
the middle of): if the effect says it moves the card it's on OUT of a zone
other than in-play (and doesn't itself trigger off the card it's on _leaving_
play - which NT doesn't, it triggers off OTHER creatures leaving play), then
it only works from that zone. NT's ability says to move NT _out_ of your
graveyard... so, unlike most triggered abilities, DOES only trigger "from the
graveyard", which is why the Time Spiral FAQ reads the way it does, and says
(correctly) that NT won't trigger off something that leaves play at the same
time NT does. (NT has to already be in the graveyard to trigger, in short.)

Sorry if this was confusing. (However, the other person's answer, "No", was
potentially much more confusing...)

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd.RemoveThis@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 >> Stay informed about: Nether Traitor 

Hi,

> Gah, and I didn't READ THE CARD closely enough. I'd cancel the above

What a relief.

> _I helped_ put in the rules (so that the rules would work right for things

I like that meta-rule. Can this be construed to mean that the
card text for

Otherworldly Journey
1W
Instant - Arcane
Remove target creature from the game. At end of turn, return that
creature to play under its owner's control with a +1/+1 counter on it.

is short for

....At end of turn, if that creature (card?) is in the removed from game
zone, return it to play...

That triggers a question for me :

Pull from Eternity
W
Instant
Put target face-up card that's removed from the game into its owner's
graveyard.

If someone pulls the journeying creature into the graveyard, will it be
returned to play at end of turn?

If the above full text were specified it wouldn't. But the meta-rule
would apply to all zones it could apply to. I would think the text
on OJ allows both RFG and graveyard. Of course a creature is not a
creature
in the graveyard (it's a creature card at best), so it could also
return from
hand and library if it can return at all (can tokens return from an
OJ?).

There is a rule that a permanent looses its identity if it
changes zones. If that is true of the RFG zone, then OJ couldn't
work as worded (in particular if it wasn't a creature but a creature
card in the RFG zone). But if it does work (which I assume) then
it should also work for graveyard, hand and library.

Unless the "keeping track of" feature of OJ only works for a single
step
(in play to RFG) and it looses track for additional zone changes.

What do you think?

regards,

Racer

PS : I guess the secret lies in some special rules associated with
the RFG zone...
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frieder.schenke DeleteThis @debitel.net <frieder.schenke DeleteThis @debitel.net> wrote:
>I like that meta-rule. Can this be construed to mean that the
>card text for
>
>Otherworldly Journey >1W >Instant - Arcane
>Remove target creature from the game. At end of turn, return that
>creature to play under its owner's control with a +1/+1 counter on it.
>
>is short for
>
>...At end of turn, if that creature (card?) is in the removed from game
>zone, return it to play...

Pretty much. The delayed triggered ability 'knows' which card in the
RFG zone corresponds to 'target creature' ... but if the card leaves the
zone, the delayed triggered ability loses track of it (in its next zone
it's a "new instance of" the card, even though it's the same physical zone).
Upshot of that is that that delayed triggered ability works as though it
were worded as you have it. (And it probably would say "card" in that case,
if only as Inline Reminder Text that tokens won't come back...)

>That triggers a question for me :
>
>Pull from Eternity >W >Instant
>Put target face-up card that's removed from the game into its owner's
>graveyard.
>
>If someone pulls the journeying creature into the graveyard, will it be
>returned to play at end of turn?

Nope. It changed zones; the card in the graveyard (217.1c) is treated as
a new object. The delayed triggered ability doesn't trigger off this - it
triggers off a time - so can't "follow" the card to the graveyard.

>If the above full text were specified it wouldn't. But the meta-rule
>would apply to all zones it could apply to. I would think the text
>on OJ allows both RFG and graveyard.

?? Let's look at the rule:

402.8g An ability whose cost or effect specifies that it moves the object it's
on out of a particular zone functions only in that zone, unless that ability's
trigger condition, or a previous part of that ability's cost or effect,
specifies that the object is put into that zone.

So this rule doesn't apply to Otherworldly Journey at -all-; OJ doesn't move
the _OJ card_ out of a particular zone. It affects a creature and moves it
around; the creature isn't the OJ object, and OJ doesn't give the card in the
RFG zone a triggered ability. OJ just makes a delayed triggered ability (and
those aren't really 'anywhere' - they are not printed on the cards they'll
affect or anything like that - they're not in a specific zone or attached to
a specific card). So the delayed triggered ability it makes isn't "on" any
object, so no 402.8g for it. (But on the plus side, that means you don't
have to worry about whether the ability 'can work from the RFG zone',
because the ability isn't IN the RFG zone, and isn't on something in that
zone either. It's just floating, waiting for 'At end of turn' to come.)

So no, this rule isn't saying that "any zone the card went to in the
meantime means the delayed triggered ability can pull it out of that zone".

>Unless the "keeping track of" feature of OJ only works for a single
>step in play to RFG) and it looses track for additional zone changes.

Yep. The OJ can only "follow" the card to _where the OJ puts it_ by removing
it from the game. If the card leaves the RFG zone after that, the OJ can't
see it any more.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd DeleteThis @vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 >> Stay informed about: Nether Traitor