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Next: Bard: The Wet Noodle Class?
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Since: May 11, 2006
Posts: 4
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 7:22 pm
Post subject: Nerfing Sorcerers with Prestige Classes
Archived from groups: rec>games>frp>dnd (more info?)
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I just thought of a clever way to change Sorcerers slightly as to make
Prestige Classes not so much of an attraction:
Modify their spell progression so that at first level and each even level
4th and above, they lose one of their spells/day, and gain a class feature
"+1 spell slot" that restores it.
So, the modified Sorcerer spell progression would look something like:
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 <-- Spell Level
1 5 2 - - ... (gain +1 spell slot)
2 6 3 - - ...
3 6 4 - - ...
4 6 5 2 - - ... (gain +1 spell slot)
....
16 6 5 5 5 5 5 5 4 2 - (gain +1 spell slot)
17 6 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 3 -
18 6 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 4 2 (gain +1 spell slot)
19 6 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 3
20 6 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 4 (gain +1 spell slot)
This way, a single-classed Sorcerer gets more spells per day than
one that took a prestige class after a short dip...
It possibly also makes it not-dangerous to allow Sorcs to use Rings
of Wizardry.
Thoughts?
Donald |
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Since: May 08, 2006
Posts: 14
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 7:22 pm
Post subject: Re: Nerfing Sorcerers with Prestige Classes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Donald Tsang wrote:
> I just thought of a clever way to change Sorcerers slightly as to make
> Prestige Classes not so much of an attraction:
>
> Modify their spell progression so that at first level and each even level
> 4th and above, they lose one of their spells/day, and gain a class feature
> "+1 spell slot" that restores it.
>
> So, the modified Sorcerer spell progression would look something like:
>
>
> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 <-- Spell Level
> 1 5 2 - - ... (gain +1 spell slot)
> 2 6 3 - - ...
> 3 6 4 - - ...
> 4 6 5 2 - - ... (gain +1 spell slot)
> ...
> 16 6 5 5 5 5 5 5 4 2 - (gain +1 spell slot)
> 17 6 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 3 -
> 18 6 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 4 2 (gain +1 spell slot)
> 19 6 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 3
> 20 6 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 4 (gain +1 spell slot)
>
> This way, a single-classed Sorcerer gets more spells per day than
> one that took a prestige class after a short dip...
>
> It possibly also makes it not-dangerous to allow Sorcs to use Rings
> of Wizardry.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Donald
The question is why? Seems unnecessary to me. Sorcerers need a boost to
be on par with wizards. If you really want them to think twice about
taking a prestige class, consider giving them something extra in their
core class that they would like to keep. Perhaps some bonus metamagic
feats. I know if I where a player in your campaign and you enforced a
rule like that I that I would be annoyed. |
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Since: May 08, 2006
Posts: 14
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 7:22 pm
Post subject: Re: Nerfing Sorcerers with Prestige Classes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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drow wrote:
> Alien mind control rays made Donald Tsang <tsang RemoveThis @csua.berkeley.edu> write:
> > I just thought of a clever way to change Sorcerers slightly as to make
> > Prestige Classes not so much of an attraction:
> >
> > Modify their spell progression so that at first level and each even level
> > 4th and above, they lose one of their spells/day, and gain a class feature
> > "+1 spell slot" that restores it.
> >
> > Thoughts?
>
> quite clever! i might push it even further, but it is Good.
>
> my wishlist for 4e includes that all main spellcasters have basically
> the same magnitude of spellcasting ability, and differentiate in other
> ways. wizards get superior metamagic, clerics get combat and turning,
> druids get wildshape, sorcerers get... i dunno, eldritch blasts or
> something. it would make PrC design so much easier.
I like this Idea >> Stay informed about: Nerfing Sorcerers with Prestige Classes |
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Since: Aug 21, 2004
Posts: 1923
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 10:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Nerfing Sorcerers with Prestige Classes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In article <e402u5$2451$1@agate.berkeley.edu>, tsang.RemoveThis@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
says...
> I just thought of a clever way to change Sorcerers slightly as to make
> Prestige Classes not so much of an attraction:
>
> Modify their spell progression so that at first level and each even level
> 4th and above, they lose one of their spells/day, and gain a class feature
> "+1 spell slot" that restores it.
>
> [snip]
>
> This way, a single-classed Sorcerer gets more spells per day than
> one that took a prestige class after a short dip...
>
> It possibly also makes it not-dangerous to allow Sorcs to use Rings
> of Wizardry.
>
> Thoughts?
Seems like it should achieve what you want, but is it really necessary?
Are sorcerers with PrCs overpowered? More so than wizards with the same
PrCs?
And rings of wizardry are already plenty expensive for what they do, I
think.
--
Jasin Zujovic >> Stay informed about: Nerfing Sorcerers with Prestige Classes |
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Since: May 03, 2005
Posts: 395
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 4:19 am
Post subject: Re: Nerfing Sorcerers with Prestige Classes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Sian Son of Cune wrote:
> The question is why? Seems unnecessary to me. Sorcerers need a boost to
> be on par with wizards. If you really want them to think twice about
> taking a prestige class, consider giving them something extra in their
> core class that they would like to keep. Perhaps some bonus metamagic
> feats. I know if I where a player in your campaign and you enforced a
> rule like that I that I would be annoyed.
If I was a player in your campaign, and I was playing a Sorcerer and
another player was also playing a Sorcerer, and this second player
multiclassed into a Prestige Class and got all sorts of benefits, while
I stayed in my Sorcerer class and got no benefits, *I* would be annoyed.
What serves, in the core D&D 3.5 rules, to encourage a Sorcerer to *not*
multiclass into a full spellcasting progression Prestige Class?
Nothing!
--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org >> Stay informed about: Nerfing Sorcerers with Prestige Classes |
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Since: Mar 06, 2005
Posts: 448
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 4:19 am
Post subject: Re: Nerfing Sorcerers with Prestige Classes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Peter Knutsen (usenet) wrote:
>
> What serves, in the core D&D 3.5 rules, to encourage a Sorcerer to *not*
> multiclass into a full spellcasting progression Prestige Class?
Well, in most PrC's your familiar stops improving as much.
Hey, stop laughing! >> Stay informed about: Nerfing Sorcerers with Prestige Classes |
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Since: Aug 21, 2004
Posts: 1923
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 10:37 am
Post subject: Re: Nerfing Sorcerers with Prestige Classes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In article <4463f0a3$0$67259$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>,
peter RemoveThis @sagatafl.invalid says...
> > The question is why? Seems unnecessary to me. Sorcerers need a boost to
> > be on par with wizards. If you really want them to think twice about
> > taking a prestige class, consider giving them something extra in their
> > core class that they would like to keep. Perhaps some bonus metamagic
> > feats. I know if I where a player in your campaign and you enforced a
> > rule like that I that I would be annoyed.
>
> If I was a player in your campaign, and I was playing a Sorcerer and
> another player was also playing a Sorcerer, and this second player
> multiclassed into a Prestige Class and got all sorts of benefits, while
> I stayed in my Sorcerer class and got no benefits, *I* would be annoyed.
>
>
> What serves, in the core D&D 3.5 rules, to encourage a Sorcerer to *not*
> multiclass into a full spellcasting progression Prestige Class?
>
> Nothing!
What served to encourage a wizard to not multiclass into loremaster, or
one of the dozens of other good full casting PrCs?
Well, not quite nothing, there's the two feats... but loremaster gets
you a feat, four more rather featlike goodies, better skills, some misc.
goodies...
IMO, it's the full spellcasting + goodies PrCs that are at fault here,
more than sorcerer.
--
Jasin Zujovic >> Stay informed about: Nerfing Sorcerers with Prestige Classes |
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Since: Apr 16, 2004
Posts: 1280
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 11:28 am
Post subject: Re: Nerfing Sorcerers with Prestige Classes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Thu, 11 May 2006 19:22:45 +0000 (UTC), tsang DeleteThis @CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
(Donald Tsang) wrote:
>It possibly also makes it not-dangerous to allow Sorcs to use Rings
>of Wizardry.
As long as the price of Rings of Wizardry stays high, and DMs don't
hand them out in loot earlier than they'd normally appear, I don't
think they'd be that dangerous if sorcerers were allowed to use them.
By standard wealth progressions they aren't available until 8th, 10th,
12th, and 13th level (depending on power), and by then the spells
slots they're adding aren't stunningly powerful anyway. Besides, IME
it takes a bit of effort to run out of low level slots as it stands. I
never found them worth the price with a generalist wizard, so I doubt
it'd be worth it for a sorcerer with that many more slots already.
--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn DeleteThis @paradise.net.nz> >> Stay informed about: Nerfing Sorcerers with Prestige Classes |
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Since: May 03, 2005
Posts: 395
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 1:00 am
Post subject: Re: Nerfing Sorcerers with Prestige Classes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Keith Davies wrote:
> Give wizards increased item creation, sorcerers increased metamagics.
The value of item creation depends a lot on how the GM runs the
campaign, so that's not necessarily a good idea at all.
> My class framework assumes that all spellcasters use the same rules
> and spell slot progressions (halfcasters -- rangers, etc. -- progress
> at half the rate). I keep wavering on exactly what magic system I
Do half-casters get cantrips? And do you define Bards as half-casters or
full casters?
> use, but I'm working on the assumption that it's the same for
> everyone.
>
> That said, I think Donald may have a good idea above. It takes
> nothing away from sorcerers, but makes it so prestige classes are less
> of a no-brainer for them.
--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org >> Stay informed about: Nerfing Sorcerers with Prestige Classes |
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Since: May 03, 2005
Posts: 395
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 2:31 am
Post subject: Re: Nerfing Sorcerers with Prestige Classes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Keith Davies wrote:
> Peter Knutsen (usenet) <peter.TakeThisOut@sagatafl.invalid> wrote:
>>Do half-casters get cantrips? And do you define Bards as half-casters or
>>full casters?
>
> Bardic music is probably modeled using feats IMC (I've written some up
> for it). The magical component could be halfcaster or fullcaster (or
> even noncaster!), depending on the character's focus.
How does the player excercise this choice?
> (Yes, you could have a fullmartial halfskill with bardic music. Fion
> McCumhail was a great bard and a powerful and skilled warrior, from
> what I've read.)
He was very wise and a great fighter, but although it's been many years
since I heard the tales (re-told on Danish radio) I don't recall him
casting any spells, or indeed working any kind of innate magic, except
for the thumb thing.
--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org >> Stay informed about: Nerfing Sorcerers with Prestige Classes |
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Since: May 15, 2005
Posts: 44
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 3:54 pm
Post subject: Re: Nerfing Sorcerers with Prestige Classes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Thu, 11 May 2006 19:22:45 +0000 (UTC), tsang.RemoveThis@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (Donald Tsang) wrote:
>I just thought of a clever way to change Sorcerers slightly as to make
>Prestige Classes not so much of an attraction:
>Thoughts?
>
Taking levels in a full spellcasting prestige class in almost always preferable to remaining a single classed
sorcerer, but I'm not sure reducing the # of spells available is the way to go. I personally think sorcerers
need more of a buff than a nerf. >> Stay informed about: Nerfing Sorcerers with Prestige Classes |
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Since: May 15, 2005
Posts: 44
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 4:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Nerfing Sorcerers with Prestige Classes [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Thu, 11 May 2006 23:26:08 -0400, Ophidian <oNpEhMiOdian23 RemoveThis @cox.net> wrote:
>Peter Knutsen (usenet) wrote:
>
>>
>> What serves, in the core D&D 3.5 rules, to encourage a Sorcerer to *not*
>> multiclass into a full spellcasting progression Prestige Class?
>
>Well, in most PrC's your familiar stops improving as much.
>Hey, stop laughing!
And taking the Obtain Familiar feat from Complete Arcana solves even that minor problem. >> Stay informed about: Nerfing Sorcerers with Prestige Classes |
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