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External
Since: Sep 02, 2006
Posts: 164
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:06 pm
Post subject: NPP bugs & nits (WIP-8)
Archived from groups: rec>games>roguelike>angband (more info?)
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So I downloaded the latest WIP, after not updating since WIP-5. Here's
what I've got. I'm looking forwards to trying the new class(es).
* Sustains in the dungeon stat panel are shown for "hidden powers" as
dark green.
* EXP should show dark green with Hold Life(?)
* Stone To Mud does not work when target is a monster rather than a
wall if the monster is not in one of the basic 8 directions. (I
installed the latest version because of this...)
* Shimmering runes should shimmer on every input character (space,
targeting etc.) for all remote traps.
* Saving throw (disarm or avoid) against Portal Monster Trap should be
[much] lower, perhaps tied to magic device failure, eg 3/(skill_dev -
min(50, mlev))? (Traps in late game are pretty much useless in any
case.)
* Rods of Detection should show up in chests. (Current Brigand has
detection only from artifacts, cl 44 4700'.)
* Brush/forest fires (and possibly oil fires) should burn out(?) (like
in UnAngband)
* Morgoth is showing attack 3 as "hit" instead of "hit to drain all
stats."
* Garbage in description of "Gauntlets of Eol", while Eöl has correct
appearance in monster description and inventory.
* Monsters don't fight very intelligently when surrounded by dangerous
stuff. (Sauron went down very easily when surrounded by acid--only
healed 4 times, and teleported summons 6 times. Didn't need to
teleport/phase at all. Killed Sauron with Acid Brand (Seeker) Bolts and
Cubragol. Presumably Morgoth does equally badly with lava...)
* No way to detect terrain, except guessing from erratic room borders.
(Don't know if it's intentional, but it's particularly annoying with
intervening fire.)
* Breath Monsters should include distance when choosing attack mode(!)
Taking advantage of this was the only way I could do any damage to
Ancalagon at all. (Otherwise he was regenerating faster than I was.
He ended up committing suicide by summoning a couple Great Chaos Wyrms,
then suffocating in the smog.)
* [Gripe] It's a bummer to find a weapon of Gondolin without an extra
ability or a Shield of Preservation with only RDisen. Maybe double
check on previously existing powers before attempting to assign a new
one?
Also, thanks for making runes/traps be targetable by disarming.
Some of those runes are really nasty, like the 'static' trap that
drains charges from all artifacts and does several hundred HP damage.
(That new nautiloid Lesser Vault "Smaller and Smaller" with a zillion
traps is nasty!) The issue on whether to carry rods of disarming is
now moot. In WIP-4 and earlier I generally risked springing traps when
opening chests, but Rods (or Wands) of Disarming are just not optional
with shimmering runes. I now buy the rods in the black market. |
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External
Since: Sep 02, 2006
Posts: 164
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:14 pm
Post subject: Re: NPP bugs & nits (WIP-8) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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External
Since: Sep 02, 2006
Posts: 164
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:19 pm
Post subject: Re: NPP bugs & nits (WIP-8) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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pete m wrote:
> pete m wrote:
> [NPP stuff]
>
> One more: max resale value at the book store is 250GP?
>
> Of course, I can still sell Wrath of God in the Black Market for 15K,
> but still it seems a bit harsh.
* Dungeon books are rare. (I ended up clearing an adult dragon pit
with my ranger to get the first two books. With no book sales and
30/8 or 40/16 rarity, you need to go very deep to have any reasonable
chance of seeing them.)
* Ranger Heal Self spell is probably not supposed to show duration
36+1d1395052. (Unfortunately, the actual duration is 36+1d36, unless I
got a very unlucky roll....)
New Druid-based Ranger is a greatly improved class, and is now
sufficiently different from rogue--the happy medium between rogue and
paladin in fighting techniques, and some really cool environmental
spells. (Toxic cleanup & remote sensing are really nice.)
I am inspired to do some diff3 with v 4.1 and integrate all of the
changes into Quickband; the new additions are really worthwhile. (The
difference between Quick and 4.1 are sufficiently small I should be
able to redo it as a patch on NPP 5.) >> Stay informed about: NPP bugs & nits (WIP-8) |
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External
Since: Feb 23, 2005
Posts: 577
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:30 pm
Post subject: Re: NPP bugs & nits (WIP-8) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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pete m wrote:
> pete m wrote:
> > pete m wrote:
> > [NPP stuff]
> >
> > One more: max resale value at the book store is 250GP?
> >
> > Of course, I can still sell Wrath of God in the Black Market for 15K,
> > but still it seems a bit harsh.
>
> * Dungeon books are rare. (I ended up clearing an adult dragon pit
> with my ranger to get the first two books. With no book sales and
> 30/8 or 40/16 rarity, you need to go very deep to have any reasonable
> chance of seeing them.)
>
> * Ranger Heal Self spell is probably not supposed to show duration
> 36+1d1395052. (Unfortunately, the actual duration is 36+1d36, unless I
> got a very unlucky roll....)
>
> New Druid-based Ranger is a greatly improved class, and is now
> sufficiently different from rogue--the happy medium between rogue and
> paladin in fighting techniques, and some really cool environmental
> spells. (Toxic cleanup & remote sensing are really nice.)
>
> I am inspired to do some diff3 with v 4.1 and integrate all of the
> changes into Quickband; the new additions are really worthwhile. (The
> difference between Quick and 4.1 are sufficiently small I should be
> able to redo it as a patch on NPP 5.)
That would be very beneficial!
A. >> Stay informed about: NPP bugs & nits (WIP-8) |
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External
Since: Feb 23, 2005
Posts: 577
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:25 am
Post subject: Re: NPP bugs & nits (WIP-8) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Jeff Greene wrote:
> "pete m" <pmac360.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > I am inspired to do some diff3 with v 4.1 and integrate all of the
> > changes into Quickband; the new additions are really worthwhile. (The
> > difference between Quick and 4.1 are sufficiently small I should be
> > able to redo it as a patch on NPP 5.)
> >
>
> That could be a pretty big diff file. Keep in mind two people have been
> coding for almost 16 months now on this. Although, now that I think about
> it, there are two completely new files written from scratch (effects.c and
> features.c), generate.c has some extensive re-writing, and of course
> terrain.txt took a long time to change and refine. Those you can just drop
> in. Let me know. I am curious how much of a job that would be.
Reading back, I'm not clear whether Pete's proposing to patch NPP 5
with the 4.1->Quickband changes or Quickband with the NPP 4.1->5
changes. I should think the former would be a lot easier than the
latter. (The distinction may blur, I suppose..)
A. >> Stay informed about: NPP bugs & nits (WIP-8) |
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External
Since: Jul 31, 2005
Posts: 101
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 6:12 am
Post subject: Re: NPP bugs & nits (WIP-8) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"pete m" <pmac360 RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162005552.667688.53460@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> pete m wrote:
>> pete m wrote:
>> [NPP stuff]
>>
>> One more: max resale value at the book store is 250GP?
>>
>> Of course, I can still sell Wrath of God in the Black Market for 15K,
>> but still it seems a bit harsh.
That's just that one seller. There are other merchants up to 15k.
>
> * Dungeon books are rare. (I ended up clearing an adult dragon pit
> with my ranger to get the first two books. With no book sales and
> 30/8 or 40/16 rarity, you need to go very deep to have any reasonable
> chance of seeing them.)
But I reduced the depth of the dungeon books as well. Plus, you should see
them in the bookstore occasionally.
>
> * Ranger Heal Self spell is probably not supposed to show duration
> 36+1d1395052. (Unfortunately, the actual duration is 36+1d36, unless I
> got a very unlucky roll....)
We will fix this. Along with the items in your other posts.
>
> New Druid-based Ranger is a greatly improved class, and is now
> sufficiently different from rogue--the happy medium between rogue and
> paladin in fighting techniques, and some really cool environmental
> spells. (Toxic cleanup & remote sensing are really nice.)
Actually, I really appreciate you trying that. Most people are testing the
druid class rather than the ranger.
>
> I am inspired to do some diff3 with v 4.1 and integrate all of the
> changes into Quickband; the new additions are really worthwhile. (The
> difference between Quick and 4.1 are sufficiently small I should be
> able to redo it as a patch on NPP 5.)
>
That could be a pretty big diff file. Keep in mind two people have been
coding for almost 16 months now on this. Although, now that I think about
it, there are two completely new files written from scratch (effects.c and
features.c), generate.c has some extensive re-writing, and of course
terrain.txt took a long time to change and refine. Those you can just drop
in. Let me know. I am curious how much of a job that would be.
We should be done coding NPP 050 and release a Beta in another week or two.
We are down to just a couple small items.
Thanks for the feedback.
-Jeff >> Stay informed about: NPP bugs & nits (WIP-8) |
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External
Since: Jul 31, 2005
Posts: 101
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:25 am
Post subject: Re: NPP bugs & nits (WIP-8) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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>"pete m" <pmac360 DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1161929170.288942.180880@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>So I downloaded the latest WIP, after not updating since WIP-5. Here's
>what I've got. I'm looking forwards to trying the new class(es).
>* Sustains in the dungeon stat panel are shown for "hidden powers" as
>dark green.
Fixed.
> * EXP should show dark green with Hold Life(?)
Fixed.
>* Stone To Mud does not work when target is a monster rather than a
>wall if the monster is not in one of the basic 8 directions. (I
>installed the latest version because of this...)
I am unable to duplicate this. Can i request that you send me a savefile of
what you are describing?
>* Shimmering runes should shimmer on every input character (space,
>targeting etc.) for all remote traps.
This would be difficultto code. I am not even sure I know how.
>* Saving throw (disarm or avoid) against Portal Monster Trap should be
>[much] lower, perhaps tied to magic device failure, eg 3/(skill_dev -
>min(50, mlev))? (Traps in late game are pretty much useless in any
>case.)
Done
>* Rods of Detection should show up in chests. (Current Brigand has
detection only from artifacts, cl 44 4700'.)
They already do. You must have had some bad luck.
>* Brush/forest fires (and possibly oil fires) should burn out(?) (like
>in UnAngband)
They do eventually. There is a % chance every turn.
>* Morgoth is showing attack 3 as "hit" instead of "hit to drain all
>stats."
Fixed.
>* Garbage in description of "Gauntlets of Eol", while Eöl has correct
>appearance in monster description and inventory.
Fixed.
>* Monsters don't fight very intelligently when surrounded by dangerous
>stuff. (Sauron went down very easily when surrounded by acid--only
>healed 4 times, and teleported summons 6 times. Didn't need to
>teleport/phase at all. Killed Sauron with Acid Brand (Seeker) Bolts and
>Cubragol. Presumably Morgoth does equally badly with lava...)
I need to work on the AI a little.
>* No way to detect terrain, except guessing from erratic room borders.
>(Don't know if it's intentional, but it's particularly annoying with
>intervening fire.)
Druids and Rangers have a spell for this in the third spellbook.
>* Breath Monsters should include distance when choosing attack mode(!)
>Taking advantage of this was the only way I could do any damage to
>Ancalagon at all. (Otherwise he was regenerating faster than I was.
>He ended up committing suicide by summoning a couple Great Chaos Wyrms,
>then suffocating in the smog.)
They do a little. I need to work on the AI a little bit.
>* [Gripe] It's a bummer to find a weapon of Gondolin without an extra
>ability or a Shield of Preservation with only RDisen. Maybe double
>check on previously existing powers before attempting to assign a new
>one?
Fixed.
>Also, thanks for making runes/traps be targetable by disarming.
>Some of those runes are really nasty, like the 'static' trap that
>drains charges from all artifacts and does several hundred HP damage.
>(That new nautiloid Lesser Vault "Smaller and Smaller" with a zillion
>traps is nasty!) The issue on whether to carry rods of disarming is
>now moot. In WIP-4 and earlier I generally risked springing traps when
>opening chests, but Rods (or Wands) of Disarming are just not optional
>with shimmering runes. I now buy the rods in the black market.
There is not supposed to be too many spell casting traps/runes in the same
place. The runes get nastier as you go deeper.
All objects get one saving throw. I gave artifacts another saving throw
against static.
-Jeff >> Stay informed about: NPP bugs & nits (WIP-8) |
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External
Since: Dec 09, 2005
Posts: 345
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:38 am
Post subject: Re: NPP bugs & nits (WIP-8) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Antoine wrote:
> Jeff Greene wrote:
> > "pete m" <pmac360.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > I am inspired to do some diff3 with v 4.1 and integrate all of the
> > > changes into Quickband; the new additions are really worthwhile. (The
> > > difference between Quick and 4.1 are sufficiently small I should be
> > > able to redo it as a patch on NPP 5.)
> > >
> >
> > That could be a pretty big diff file. Keep in mind two people have been
> > coding for almost 16 months now on this. Although, now that I think about
> > it, there are two completely new files written from scratch (effects.c and
> > features.c), generate.c has some extensive re-writing, and of course
> > terrain.txt took a long time to change and refine. Those you can just drop
> > in. Let me know. I am curious how much of a job that would be.
>
> Reading back, I'm not clear whether Pete's proposing to patch NPP 5
> with the 4.1->Quickband changes or Quickband with the NPP 4.1->5
> changes. I should think the former would be a lot easier than the
> latter. (The distinction may blur, I suppose..)
I'm pretty sure he meant the former. He said "a patch ON NPP 5"
(emphasis mine). >> Stay informed about: NPP bugs & nits (WIP-8) |
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External
Since: Dec 09, 2005
Posts: 345
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:38 am
Post subject: Re: NPP bugs & nits (WIP-8) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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External
Since: Sep 02, 2006
Posts: 164
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 2:51 pm
Post subject: Re: NPP bugs & nits (WIP-8) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Jeff Greene wrote:
> > New Druid-based Ranger is a greatly improved class, and is now
> > sufficiently different from rogue--the happy medium between rogue and
> > paladin in fighting techniques, and some really cool environmental
> > spells. (Toxic cleanup & remote sensing are really nice.)
>
> Actually, I really appreciate you trying that. Most people are testing the
> druid class rather than the ranger.
It would be nice if the Ranger Heal Self spell were a bit more
reliable. With a Paladin, I can throw WIS at the problem, but it's
pretty much useless as a Ranger, since even a +6 AoWIS (which I don't
have) would only reduce the fail rate by 9%. As things stand Dunadan
has an extreme advantage over the other races. (I'm running a Kobold
ranger, which admittedly is a little deficient in WIS+INT, but at
18/9x, +5, +5 bonus and cl 44, the fail rate is still 20%.)
Maybe give Ranger a modest WIS bonus as well as +2 INT? Or reduce the
fail rate a bit, but scale the amount of healing, perhaps to 4 * clev
for Ranger and 6 * clev for Druid?
cl 25 -> Heal(NA/150)
cl 35 -> Heal(140/210)
cl 50 -> Heal(200/300)
Also:
* Druid Water Ball does Boiling Mud damage.
* Poison immunity doesn't work on poison clouds. (Discovered with a
randart)
I need to try Druid next; those higher spells in Nature's Fury spells
look great; the Ranger ones are worthless of course. (Low damage,
high mana; even worse than Raal's.)
I only have one really significant gripe: carrying as much escape gear
as a warrior. (Teleport staves/scrolls, Phase Door, etc. Also !Hero.
You end up with almost no room in the pack.) >> Stay informed about: NPP bugs & nits (WIP-8) |
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External
Since: Dec 09, 2005
Posts: 345
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 4:00 pm
Post subject: Re: NPP bugs & nits (WIP-8) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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pete m wrote:
> Maybe give Ranger a modest WIS bonus as well as +2 INT?
Why not just swap the class bonuses to WIS and INT? It looks like the
Ranger's stats are still balanced for being an INT-based spellcaster.
Legacy code problem.
> I need to try Druid next; those higher spells in Nature's Fury spells
> look great; the Ranger ones are worthless of course. (Low damage,
> high mana; even worse than Raal's.)
Raal's is even worse in NPP than Vanilla, then, where at least Rend
Soul is useful on elementals, angels(!), and hounds(!!)... >> Stay informed about: NPP bugs & nits (WIP-8) |
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External
Since: Sep 02, 2006
Posts: 164
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 4:56 pm
Post subject: Re: NPP bugs & nits (WIP-8) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Jeff Greene wrote:
> All objects get one saving throw. I gave artifacts another saving throw
> against static.
I've never seen a single successful saving throw. I think it's
because:
if (dam > rand_int(k_ptr->k_level * 2))
is never satisfied. (My deepest object kind right now is 50--the
Arkenstone. Static ball damage is 200 at dl 100.)
This will work:
if (k_ptr->_level*2 > rand_int(dam))
(Saving throw chance of 50% for Arkenstone at dl 100.)
And the saving throw is only attempted once, independently of whether
it's an artifact or not. >> Stay informed about: NPP bugs & nits (WIP-8) |
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External
Since: Jul 31, 2005
Posts: 101
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 7:42 pm
Post subject: Re: NPP bugs & nits (WIP-8) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"pete m" <pmac360.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162072291.058815.189520@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>
> Jeff Greene wrote:
>> > New Druid-based Ranger is a greatly improved class, and is now
>> > sufficiently different from rogue--the happy medium between rogue and
>> > paladin in fighting techniques, and some really cool environmental
>> > spells. (Toxic cleanup & remote sensing are really nice.)
>>
>> Actually, I really appreciate you trying that. Most people are testing
>> the
>> druid class rather than the ranger.
>
> It would be nice if the Ranger Heal Self spell were a bit more
> reliable. With a Paladin, I can throw WIS at the problem, but it's
> pretty much useless as a Ranger, since even a +6 AoWIS (which I don't
> have) would only reduce the fail rate by 9%. As things stand Dunadan
> has an extreme advantage over the other races. (I'm running a Kobold
> ranger, which admittedly is a little deficient in WIS+INT, but at
> 18/9x, +5, +5 bonus and cl 44, the fail rate is still 20%.)
I can lower the faill rate for this spell.
>
> Maybe give Ranger a modest WIS bonus as well as +2 INT?
Makes Sense.
>
> Also:
> * Druid Water Ball does Boiling Mud damage.
A bunch of spells in the final book don't work quite right. We have that
fixed now. We will put out WIP-8a soon.
> * Poison immunity doesn't work on poison clouds. (Discovered with a
> randart)
What does this mean? The player takes damage from poison clouds even if
they have poison immunity?
>
> I need to try Druid next; those higher spells in Nature's Fury spells
> look great; the Ranger ones are worthless of course. (Low damage,
> high mana; even worse than Raal's.)
They should be useful if you are standing in the right terrain. I can lower
the mana cost a bit.
>
> I only have one really significant gripe: carrying as much escape gear
> as a warrior. (Teleport staves/scrolls, Phase Door, etc. Also !Hero.
> You end up with almost no room in the pack.)
>
Good point. I think I will add some utility spells for the ranger only.
Especially since the Ranger has to carry arrows as well.
-Jeff >> Stay informed about: NPP bugs & nits (WIP-8) |
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Since: Sep 02, 2006
Posts: 164
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:17 am
Post subject: Re: NPP bugs & nits (WIP-8) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Jeff Greene wrote:
> >
> > I am inspired to do some diff3 with v 4.1 and integrate all of the
> > changes into Quickband; the new additions are really worthwhile. (The
> > difference between Quick and 4.1 are sufficiently small I should be
> > able to redo it as a patch on NPP 5.)
> >
It's really not bad. I'm trying to do it as a very simple patch on
NPP, so that you could in principle use the same source for both except
for header files and data files. I'm doing that while finishing off
the Ranger character.
> That could be a pretty big diff file. Keep in mind two people have been
> coding for almost 16 months now on this. Although, now that I think about
> it, there are two completely new files written from scratch (effects.c and
> features.c), generate.c has some extensive re-writing, and of course
> terrain.txt took a long time to change and refine. Those you can just drop
> in. Let me know. I am curious how much of a job that would be.
>
> We should be done coding NPP 050 and release a Beta in another week or two.
> We are down to just a couple small items.
* Natural Infusions book should be Ironman Only, unless there's some
good reason to favor Rangers and Druids more than Rogues, Paladins, and
Priests.
The nativity spells (in conjunction with the high AC from
Shield+Prayer) are unbelievably powerful in combat. I just killed the
Cat Lord standing up to my neck in the waves. He summoned a barrel of
kittens, but all of them together only did 30 HP total damage. And if
you are fighting in burning oil, summoners mostly waste there efforts,
just occasionally getting lucky with one or two fire-immune monsters.
(Narya is good for this...) >> Stay informed about: NPP bugs & nits (WIP-8) |
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Since: Jul 31, 2005
Posts: 101
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:49 pm
Post subject: Re: NPP bugs & nits (WIP-8) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"pete m" <pmac360.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162106222.917321.96250@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Jeff Greene wrote:
>
>
> * Natural Infusions book should be Ironman Only, unless there's some
> good reason to favor Rangers and Druids more than Rogues, Paladins, and
> Priests.
It will be, once the playtesting is done.
>
>
> The nativity spells (in conjunction with the high AC from
> Shield+Prayer) are unbelievably powerful in combat. I just killed the
> Cat Lord standing up to my neck in the waves. He summoned a barrel of
> kittens, but all of them together only did 30 HP total damage. And if
> you are fighting in burning oil, summoners mostly waste there efforts,
> just occasionally getting lucky with one or two fire-immune monsters.
> (Narya is good for this...)
>
I need to make monsters keep their distance when the terrain is not
favorable.
It is meant for the druid to become an extremely powerful character.
Considering they are pretty useless when their mana runs out, I think they
need to be that way. I am going for a true spellcasting class.
-Jeff >> Stay informed about: NPP bugs & nits (WIP-8) |
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Poll: How much time do you use fo ra win. - Hi all. In "Collected Vanilla wish list" thread I have discussed with Pete and Cliff and then a question raised: How many hours do you usually need for winning the game. Not turns, hours. Real Time. Just playing time, don't count lunchtime....
[Z] arrows of wounding? - I picked up some of these -- arrows of wounding, 3d4, (+1,+3), which struck me as pretty pitiful. Do they have some damage multiplier I know not wot, or are they basically just arrows, +1 to hit, +3 to dam? And if so, what does "of wounding"...
When you really need to kill a lot of monsters... - I have an exception to Cliff's rule of not clearing pits. My current gear, class is NPP rogue. Swap: BoC *Slay Demon*, Acid/Fire brand halberd. Sling of Buckland Barahir(+1) RoSpeed(+8) Elessar [ Heal activation ] Thalkettoth Colannon Anarrion.. |
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