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Since: Sep 26, 2007
Posts: 1
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:59 pm
Post subject: Musings on Magic levels
Archived from groups: rec>games>frp>dnd (more info?)
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No, I don't mean along the lines of is Earth really "low magic", "no
magic" or "moderate to high magic held in secret from the clueless
rabble".
I'm talking about grading the power and effectiveness of magic in the
waye technology is commonly divvied up into tech levels for various
RPGs. You just don't see it. Not in any RPG I've every come across,
anyway. Part of it is a difference in mind-set - SF gamers are used
to the idea that their setting will restrict their access to the
Really Kewl gadgets and artifacts listed in the upper levels of GURPS
Ultra-Tech, but place a limit on accessible spells and most fantasy
gamers rise up in near-revolt. Magic is presented as a complete
package as a general rule. There is one exception, now that I think
of it: GURPS Ice-Age gave shamans - and only shamans - access to
under thirty of the spells listed in GURPS magic. All of which were
damn useful to a Tech Zero culture. And this is only a partial
exception, you or your shaman might not know the spell currently, but
there was the potential for access to all thirtyish listed spells if
you found the right teacher.
But for the point of discussion, let us use D&D. If level nine
spells are the equivalent of GURPS tech 16 (All the goodies! ALL OF
THEM!!) What is the magical equivalent of GURPS tech seven/
eight(modern day) or late tech-4(ACW, Franco-Prussian War)? |
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Since: Sep 26, 2007
Posts: 3
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Musings on Magic levels [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Sep 26, 4:41 pm, Sheldon England <sheldonengl... RemoveThis @netscape.net>
wrote:
> srogers... RemoveThis @aol.com wrote:
>
> > No, I don't mean along the lines of is Earth really "low magic", "no
> > magic" or "moderate to high magic held in secret from the clueless
> > rabble".
>
> What?
>
> Are you replying to or commenting on another post? There was no context.
Not replying to anything, just clarifying the topic of the thread. |
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Since: Sep 26, 2007
Posts: 3
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Musings on Magic levels [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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>
> Technology is inherently something that is available to anyone with the
> Magic is not handicapped in this way. If you know how to do it, you have
> the ability to do it.
>
> If magic were built up of layers and improvements the way technology is,
> then it would make sense. Perhaps to do more advanced magic a wizard
> should have to get "upgrades" to his wand or spellbook...
>
But that does seem to be the case in some stories, doesn't it? Lost
knowledge of the ancients and all that. Or extremely sophisticated
Alfar squashing their fumbling human opponents. What I am getting at
is how to represent that in terms of a FRP.
> (Of course, since electronics work because of deamons made of blue smoke
> that are trapped inside, technology *is* magic... Just let the blue smoke
> out and you'll see that the spell that makes it work is broken.)
>
> Gene P.
> Slidell LA
Heh. White Wolf built a commercial empire out of the magic/science
two sides of the same coin thing. >> Stay informed about: Musings on Magic levels |
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Since: Sep 01, 2004
Posts: 46
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Musings on Magic levels [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Wed, 26 Sep 2007, srogerscat.RemoveThis@aol.com wrote:
[snip]
> I'm talking about grading the power and effectiveness of magic in the
> waye technology is commonly divvied up into tech levels for various
> RPGs.[...]
[snip]
>
> But for the point of discussion, let us use D&D. If level nine
> spells are the equivalent of GURPS tech 16 (All the goodies! ALL OF
> THEM!!) What is the magical equivalent of GURPS tech seven/
> eight(modern day) or late tech-4(ACW, Franco-Prussian War)?
I think that there is even more apples to organges comparison going on
here than you are grokking...
Technology is inherently something that is available to anyone with the
industrial and knowledge base to support it. The fact that not everyone
has it is related mostly to the industrial base... It really doesn't
matter if you know how to make quantum computers (human researchers are
tinkering with this now) if the best your manufactuing base can produce is
..5 micron chips (roughly the functional state of the art). My point is
that we have a theoretical base to comprehend and manipulate a much higher
level of tech than me can produce or really maintain.
Magic is not handicapped in this way. If you know how to do it, you have
the ability to do it.
If magic were built up of layers and improvements the way technology is,
then it would make sense. Perhaps to do more advanced magic a wizard
should have to get "upgrades" to his wand or spellbook...
(Of course, since electronics work because of deamons made of blue smoke
that are trapped inside, technology *is* magic... Just let the blue smoke
out and you'll see that the spell that makes it work is broken.)
Gene P.
Slidell LA >> Stay informed about: Musings on Magic levels |
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Since: Jan 19, 2005
Posts: 559
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:56 pm
Post subject: Re: Musings on Magic levels [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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srogerscat.RemoveThis@aol.com wrote:
>
> No, I don't mean along the lines of is Earth really "low magic", "no
> magic" or "moderate to high magic held in secret from the clueless
> rabble".
What?
Are you replying to or commenting on another post? There was no context.
> I'm talking about grading the power and effectiveness of magic in the
> waye technology is commonly divvied up into tech levels for various
> RPGs. You just don't see it. Not in any RPG I've every come across,
> anyway. Part of it is a difference in mind-set - SF gamers are used
> to the idea that their setting will restrict their access to the
> Really Kewl gadgets and artifacts listed in the upper levels of GURPS
> Ultra-Tech, but place a limit on accessible spells and most fantasy
> gamers rise up in near-revolt. Magic is presented as a complete
> package as a general rule. There is one exception, now that I think
> of it: GURPS Ice-Age gave shamans - and only shamans - access to
> under thirty of the spells listed in GURPS magic. All of which were
> damn useful to a Tech Zero culture. And this is only a partial
> exception, you or your shaman might not know the spell currently, but
> there was the potential for access to all thirtyish listed spells if
> you found the right teacher.
>
> But for the point of discussion, let us use D&D. If level nine
> spells are the equivalent of GURPS tech 16 (All the goodies! ALL OF
> THEM!!) What is the magical equivalent of GURPS tech seven/
> eight(modern day) or late tech-4(ACW, Franco-Prussian War)?
What?
- Sheldon >> Stay informed about: Musings on Magic levels |
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Since: Jun 01, 2007
Posts: 205
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Musings on Magic levels [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Sep 26, 2:53 pm, srogerscat <srogers....DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote:
> > Technology is inherently something that is available to anyone with the
> > Magic is not handicapped in this way. If you know how to do it, you have
> > the ability to do it.
>
> > If magic were built up of layers and improvements the way technology is,
> > then it would make sense. Perhaps to do more advanced magic a wizard
> > should have to get "upgrades" to his wand or spellbook...
>
> But that does seem to be the case in some stories, doesn't it? Lost
> knowledge of the ancients and all that. Or extremely sophisticated
> Alfar squashing their fumbling human opponents. What I am getting at
> is how to represent that in terms of a FRP.
In D&D you could restrict spell levels (only up to level 5, or
whatever) to 'non-ancients' but allow it to be discovered. If you
count in epic you could just restrict it to the standard of level 9
and only the ancients knew epic (10th level) magic.
You could make learning magic inherently harder, ala D20 modern. You
have all spell casting classes be prestige only, so you have to be
someone who has 9 ranks in knowledge arcana first before you can even
take a level of wizard. You can then vary the required ranks based on
'magic level'.
You could assign magic levels to type or school and restrict it that
way. Low magic worlds have only psionics, medium have only psi and
divine, high have psi, divine and arcane. Or by school - low starts
with divination, then add schools as required... I'd probably go
something like:
1 = divination
2 = illusion
3 = conjuration
4 = necromancy
5 = transmutation
6 = evocation
Each level inclusive of the previous.
- Justisaur >> Stay informed about: Musings on Magic levels |
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Since: Sep 05, 2004
Posts: 241
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:34 am
Post subject: Re: Musings on Magic levels [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>games>frp>dnd, others (more info?)
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srogerscat RemoveThis @aol.com says...
>No, I don't mean along the lines of is Earth really "low magic", "no
>magic" or "moderate to high magic held in secret from the clueless
>rabble".
That's the best way.
>I'm talking about grading the power and effectiveness of magic in the
>waye technology is commonly divvied up into tech levels for various
>RPGs. You just don't see it. Not in any RPG I've every come across,
>anyway. Part of it is a difference in mind-set - SF gamers are used
>to the idea that their setting will restrict their access to the
>Really Kewl gadgets and artifacts listed in the upper levels of GURPS
>Ultra-Tech, but place a limit on accessible spells and most fantasy
>gamers rise up in near-revolt. Magic is presented as a complete
>package as a general rule. There is one exception, now that I think
>of it: GURPS Ice-Age gave shamans - and only shamans - access to
>under thirty of the spells listed in GURPS magic. All of which were
>damn useful to a Tech Zero culture. And this is only a partial
>exception, you or your shaman might not know the spell currently, but
>there was the potential for access to all thirtyish listed spells if
>you found the right teacher.
>
>But for the point of discussion, let us use D&D. If level nine
>spells are the equivalent of GURPS tech 16 (All the goodies! ALL OF
>THEM!!) What is the magical equivalent of GURPS tech seven/
>eight(modern day) or late tech-4(ACW, Franco-Prussian War)?
Technology and magic are mutually exclusive. There is no comparison.
--
It is simply breathtaking to watch the glee and abandon with which
the liberal media and the Angry Left have been attempting to turn
our military victory in Iraq into a second Vietnam quagmire. Too bad
for them, it's failing. >> Stay informed about: Musings on Magic levels |
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Since: Mar 01, 2006
Posts: 35
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:55 am
Post subject: Re: Musings on Magic levels [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 09:34:16 -0400, Ubiquitous <weberm.TakeThisOut@polaris.net>
wrote:
>srogerscat@aol.com says...
<snip>
>>But for the point of discussion, let us use D&D. If level nine
>>spells are the equivalent of GURPS tech 16 (All the goodies! ALL OF
>>THEM!!) What is the magical equivalent of GURPS tech seven/
>>eight(modern day) or late tech-4(ACW, Franco-Prussian War)?
>
>Technology and magic are mutually exclusive. There is no comparison.
Bull. Unless your game only allows enchanting natural objects, you mix
magic and technology all the time.
For example: Steel doesn't exist in nature; it's a technological item.
Saying "technology and magic are mutually exclusive" means it's
impossible to enchant steel, and all those Hackmaster +12s become
nothing more than mere rumours. (Assuming the setting's "magic
technology" is capable of producing +12 enchantments, of course... which
brings us back to the question at hand.)
--
Rob Kelk Personal address (ROT-13): eboxryx -ng- tznvy -qbg- pbz
"There's always somebody who's going to hate your work, no matter
how good it is. DON'T LET HIM CHASE YOU AWAY FROM WRITING, BECAUSE
THAT WAY HE WINS." - Robert M. Schroeck, 18 July 2006 >> Stay informed about: Musings on Magic levels |
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Since: Oct 06, 2007
Posts: 1
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:30 pm
Post subject: Re: Musings on Magic levels [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Rob Kelk wrote:
> On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 09:34:16 -0400, Ubiquitous <weberm.TakeThisOut@polaris.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Technology and magic are mutually exclusive. There is no comparison.
>
> Bull. Unless your game only allows enchanting natural objects, you mix
> magic and technology all the time.
>
> For example: Steel doesn't exist in nature; it's a technological item.
> Saying "technology and magic are mutually exclusive" means it's
> impossible to enchant steel, and all those Hackmaster +12s become
> nothing more than mere rumours. (Assuming the setting's "magic
> technology" is capable of producing +12 enchantments, of course... which
> brings us back to the question at hand.)
>
Oh, that really depends, I'm currently in a GURPs fantasy game that
uses magic tech levels to great effect (before this game I thought the
whole concept was silly, though it also uses the enhancement/limitation
house rules) And I'm part of a secret society that introduced steel to
the world a couple of thousand years ago because TL3 magic Is utterly
vulnerable to it (stopped dead in the area it was) TL4 magic isn't, but
that mageocracy still toppled, and there's still some TL3 magic out
there... That and the fact that my other character is an enchanter, with
a penchant for making golems, my GM came to the conclusion that in his
world, for what they can do, and what you can do with them under the
right circumstances they where to cheep as written so he ret-coned
saying I came up with a cheaper (higher tech) version of that spell, to
explain why the world wasn't over populated by golems (and to help shape
the quasi technomancer game he's planing on running in the same world in
the future)(not to mention as an excuse for me to spend points in wealth
and status...) >> Stay informed about: Musings on Magic levels |
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Since: Sep 26, 2007
Posts: 3
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:45 am
Post subject: Re: Musings on Magic levels [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Oct 6, 6:30 pm, Adam <tangent_....DeleteThis@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Oh, that really depends, I'm currently in a GURPs fantasy game that
> uses magic tech levels to great effect (before this game I thought the
> whole concept was silly, though it also uses the enhancement/limitation
> house rules) And I'm part of a secret society that introduced steel to
> the world a couple of thousand years ago because TL3 magic Is utterly
> vulnerable to it (stopped dead in the area it was) TL4 magic isn't, but
> that mageocracy still toppled, and there's still some TL3 magic out
> there...
That is *very* interesting. Precisely the sort of effect I was trying
to get at.
That and the fact that my other character is an enchanter, with
> a penchant for making golems, my GM came to the conclusion that in his
> world, for what they can do, and what you can do with them under the
> right circumstances they where to cheep as written so he ret-coned
> saying I came up with a cheaper (higher tech) version of that spell, to
> explain why the world wasn't over populated by golems (and to help shape
> the quasi technomancer game he's planing on running in the same world in
> the future)(not to mention as an excuse for me to spend points in wealth
> and status...)
Can you provide a few more details as to the magic tech levels,
please?
Steve >> Stay informed about: Musings on Magic levels |
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Since: Sep 05, 2004
Posts: 241
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:22 am
Post subject: Re: Musings on Magic levels [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In article <470797ab.1749421.DeleteThis@news.individual.net>, robkelk.DeleteThis@deadspam.com says...
>On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 09:34:16 -0400, Ubiquitous <weberm.DeleteThis@polaris.net>
>wrote:
>>srogerscat@aol.com says...
>>>But for the point of discussion, let us use D&D. If level nine
>>>spells are the equivalent of GURPS tech 16 (All the goodies! ALL OF
>>>THEM!!) What is the magical equivalent of GURPS tech seven/
>>>eight(modern day) or late tech-4(ACW, Franco-Prussian War)?
>>
>>Technology and magic are mutually exclusive. There is no comparison.
>
>Bull. Unless your game only allows enchanting natural objects, you mix
>magic and technology all the time.
>
>For example: Steel doesn't exist in nature; it's a technological item.
Are you trying to assert that steel is magical? >> Stay informed about: Musings on Magic levels |
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Since: Oct 28, 2007
Posts: 186
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:22 am
Post subject: Re: Musings on Magic levels [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>games>frp>dnd (more info?)
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On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 11:22:23 -0400, Ubiquitous <weberm.DeleteThis@polaris.net>
wrote:
]In article <470797ab.1749421.DeleteThis@news.individual.net>, robkelk.DeleteThis@deadspam.com says...
]>On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 09:34:16 -0400, Ubiquitous <weberm.DeleteThis@polaris.net>
]>wrote:
]>>srogerscat@aol.com says...
]
]>>>But for the point of discussion, let us use D&D. If level nine
]>>>spells are the equivalent of GURPS tech 16 (All the goodies! ALL OF
]>>>THEM!!) What is the magical equivalent of GURPS tech seven/
]>>>eight(modern day) or late tech-4(ACW, Franco-Prussian War)?
]>>
]>>Technology and magic are mutually exclusive. There is no comparison.
]>
]>Bull. Unless your game only allows enchanting natural objects, you mix
]>magic and technology all the time.
]>
]>For example: Steel doesn't exist in nature; it's a technological item.
]
]Are you trying to assert that steel is magical?
I doubt it.
Steel is technology. So is a button. So is any tool. Therefore magic
and technology do exist together in the game world.
JimP.
--
http://www.linuxgazette.net/ Linux Gazette
http://crestar.drivein-jim.net/blog/ Oct 1, 2007 1E AD&D blog
http://www.drivein-jim.net/blog/ Oct 14, 2007: Drive-In movie theatres
http://poetry.drivein-jim.net/ poetry blog July 9, 2007 >> Stay informed about: Musings on Magic levels |
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Since: Jun 23, 2007
Posts: 46
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Musings on Magic levels [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>games>frp>dnd, others (more info?)
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On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 11:22:23 -0400, Ubiquitous <weberm.RemoveThis@polaris.net>
wrote:
>In article <470797ab.1749421.RemoveThis@news.individual.net>, robkelk.RemoveThis@deadspam.com says...
>>On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 09:34:16 -0400, Ubiquitous <weberm.RemoveThis@polaris.net>
>>wrote:
>>>srogerscat@aol.com says...
>
>>>>But for the point of discussion, let us use D&D. If level nine
>>>>spells are the equivalent of GURPS tech 16 (All the goodies! ALL OF
>>>>THEM!!) What is the magical equivalent of GURPS tech seven/
>>>>eight(modern day) or late tech-4(ACW, Franco-Prussian War)?
>>>
>>>Technology and magic are mutually exclusive. There is no comparison.
>>
>>Bull. Unless your game only allows enchanting natural objects, you mix
>>magic and technology all the time.
>>
>>For example: Steel doesn't exist in nature; it's a technological item.
>
>Are you trying to assert that steel is magical?
>
No, he's trying to assert that magic swords are technological items. >> Stay informed about: Musings on Magic levels |
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Since: Mar 01, 2006
Posts: 35
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 1:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Musings on Magic levels [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 16:00:16 GMT, David Johnston <david.TakeThisOut@block.net>
wrote:
>On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 11:22:23 -0400, Ubiquitous <weberm.TakeThisOut@polaris.net>
>wrote:
>
>>In article <470797ab.1749421.TakeThisOut@news.individual.net>, robkelk.TakeThisOut@deadspam.com says...
>>>On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 09:34:16 -0400, Ubiquitous <weberm.TakeThisOut@polaris.net>
>>>wrote:
>>>>srogerscat@aol.com says...
>>
>>>>>But for the point of discussion, let us use D&D. If level nine
>>>>>spells are the equivalent of GURPS tech 16 (All the goodies! ALL OF
>>>>>THEM!!) What is the magical equivalent of GURPS tech seven/
>>>>>eight(modern day) or late tech-4(ACW, Franco-Prussian War)?
>>>>
>>>>Technology and magic are mutually exclusive. There is no comparison.
>>>
>>>Bull. Unless your game only allows enchanting natural objects, you mix
>>>magic and technology all the time.
>>>
>>>For example: Steel doesn't exist in nature; it's a technological item.
>>
>>Are you trying to assert that steel is magical?
>>
>
>No, he's trying to assert that magic swords are technological items.
Not quite... Swords are technological items. Magic swords are a mix of
technology and magic, something that Ubiquitous implied is impossible.
--
Rob Kelk Personal address (ROT-13): eboxryx -ng- tznvy -qbg- pbz
"There's always somebody who's going to hate your work, no matter
how good it is. DON'T LET HIM CHASE YOU AWAY FROM WRITING, BECAUSE
THAT WAY HE WINS." - Robert M. Schroeck, 18 July 2006 >> Stay informed about: Musings on Magic levels |
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:33 pm
Post subject: Re: Musings on Magic levels [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 11:22:23 -0400, Ubiquitous <weberm DeleteThis @polaris.net>
wrote:
>In article <470797ab.1749421 DeleteThis @news.individual.net>, robkelk DeleteThis @deadspam.com says...
>>On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 09:34:16 -0400, Ubiquitous <weberm DeleteThis @polaris.net>
>>wrote:
>>>srogerscat@aol.com says...
>
>>>>But for the point of discussion, let us use D&D. If level nine
>>>>spells are the equivalent of GURPS tech 16 (All the goodies! ALL OF
>>>>THEM!!) What is the magical equivalent of GURPS tech seven/
>>>>eight(modern day) or late tech-4(ACW, Franco-Prussian War)?
>>>
>>>Technology and magic are mutually exclusive. There is no comparison.
>>
>>Bull. Unless your game only allows enchanting natural objects, you mix
>>magic and technology all the time.
>>
>>For example: Steel doesn't exist in nature; it's a technological item.
>
>Are you trying to assert that steel is magical?
How in the world did you get *that* from "Steel doesn't exist in nature;
it's a technological item"????? Read what I wrote, please.
--
Rob Kelk <http://robkelk.ottawa-anime.org/> e-mail: s/deadspam/gmail/
"They were engaged in a calm and dignified discussion of important
issues of the day. No, wait, that was somebody else. *These* two
were all but screaming at each other at the tops of their lungs."
- from "Drunkard's Walk V/Oh My Brother II" >> Stay informed about: Musings on Magic levels |
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