Movement through invisible foe you don't know is there?

Justisaur wrote:
> Since no one answered my question in my Shackled City 2nd session
> report, I'm re-asking it without the long winded report.
>
> PC tries to move through a square which contains an invisible foe. PC
> doesn't know invisible foe is there. What happens?

I'm assuming 'construct' from your next comment.

If the construct is activated hostile, it should
get a surprise round.

If the construct is inactive, the character bumped
into an invisible barrier, nothing more.

Would a construct avoid a character? You could
probably come up with a scenario.


> Originally I had it end the movement and start an
> involuntary grapple.

No such thing? A grapple is a targetted attack.
In the character's round they could attempt it,
after they bump.


> (I forgot the AoO for entering the opponents
> square, but the construct may not have been
> smart enough to take advantage of it anyway,
> or may have been 'unreliable' at the time).

> One of my players argued that didn't sound
> right to him, and looked up 'ending movement
> in an illegal square' which indicates they go
> back to the square where they were last
> instead.

The construct could have grappled as the character
entered the square, and if successful, the character
is legal in that square.


> Which of these would be right?

Mostly 'can't enter'.


> Or would it be an overrun or bull rush involuntarily?

No such animal? Same comments as grapple.
You have to be in the process of bull rushing to
bull rush.


> Something else all together?

Avoidance or a throw seem plausible from
the invsible construct's POV. Do you allow
throws? Races of stone has some foe toss
rules.

MadKaugh
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"Justisaur" <justisaur.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in news:1143565239.453505.51550
@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> Since no one answered my question in my Shackled City 2nd session
> report, I'm re-asking it without the long winded report.
>
> PC tries to move through a square which contains an invisible foe. PC
> doesn't know invisible foe is there. What happens?
>
> Originally I had it end the movement and start an involuntary grapple
> (I forgot the AoO for entering the opponents square, but the construct
> may not have been smart enough to take advantage of it anyway, or may
> have been 'unreliable' at the time). One of my players argued that
> didn't sound right to him, and looked up 'ending movement in an illegal
> square' which indicates they go back to the square where they were last
> instead.
>
> Which of these would be right? Or would it be an overrun or bull rush
> involuntarily? Something else all together?

Officially, you just can't enter the square. "You can't move through a
square occupied by an opponent, unless the opponent is helpless." "You
can't end your movement in the same space as another creature unless it
is helpless." Overrun, bull rush, and grapple can ONLY happen
voluntarily. So your player was right, that square is illegal so the
player bounces back to the last square. Since the invisible creature
hasn't taking any attack of opportunity, he's basically just standing
there until the opponent blunders into him and backs off in momentary
confusion.

Unofficially: There's a fair amount of room in a square. An invisible
creature could go stand off in the corner of the square and let the
opponent pass by, or stand in his way to block him, or whatever. I would
allow the invisible creature the option of standing aside or blocking.
Or, of course, he can use his attack of opportunity to initiate a grapple
if that's what he's into. This would basically amount to an overrun, but
with no chance of either character to be knocked prone.
 >> Stay informed about: Movement through invisible foe you don't know is there? 

In article <1143565239.453505.51550 RemoveThis @i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"Justisaur" <justisaur RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:

> Since no one answered my question in my Shackled City 2nd session
> report, I'm re-asking it without the long winded report.
>
> PC tries to move through a square which contains an invisible foe. PC
> doesn't know invisible foe is there. What happens?
>
> Originally I had it end the movement and start an involuntary grapple
> (I forgot the AoO for entering the opponents square, but the construct
> may not have been smart enough to take advantage of it anyway, or may
> have been 'unreliable' at the time). One of my players argued that
> didn't sound right to him, and looked up 'ending movement in an illegal
> square' which indicates they go back to the square where they were last
> instead.
>
> Which of these would be right? Or would it be an overrun or bull rush
> involuntarily? Something else all together?

IIRC, you can choose to let an ally through your space as long as they
don't end their movement there.

So my guess would be that the invisible critter gets an AoO, and can let
the player through their square if they like. If they take the AoO or
choose to block movement then the player now knows where they are and
the game moves on from there. The player might move further in another
direction, stop and attempt a bull rush, or whatever.

Sound sensible?

--
Kevin Lowe,
Tasmania.
 >> Stay informed about: Movement through invisible foe you don't know is there? 

"Justisaur" wrote
>
> Since no one answered my question in my Shackled City 2nd session
> report, I'm re-asking it without the long winded report.
>
> PC tries to move through a square which contains an invisible foe. PC
> doesn't know invisible foe is there. What happens?
>
> Originally I had it end the movement and start an involuntary grapple
> (I forgot the AoO for entering the opponents square, but the construct
> may not have been smart enough to take advantage of it anyway, or may
> have been 'unreliable' at the time). One of my players argued that
> didn't sound right to him, and looked up 'ending movement in an illegal
> square' which indicates they go back to the square where they were last
> instead.
>
> Which of these would be right? Or would it be an overrun or bull rush
> involuntarily? Something else all together?

An even more important question is what if this invisible foe is holding
open an invisible door?


John
 >> Stay informed about: Movement through invisible foe you don't know is there? 

Justisaur wrote:

> Since no one answered my question in my Shackled City 2nd session
> report, I'm re-asking it without the long winded report.
>
> PC tries to move through a square which contains an invisible foe. PC
> doesn't know invisible foe is there. What happens?
>
> Originally I had it end the movement and start an involuntary grapple
> (I forgot the AoO for entering the opponents square, but the construct
> may not have been smart enough to take advantage of it anyway, or may
> have been 'unreliable' at the time). One of my players argued that
> didn't sound right to him, and looked up 'ending movement in an illegal
> square' which indicates they go back to the square where they were last
> instead.
>
> Which of these would be right? Or would it be an overrun or bull rush
> involuntarily? Something else all together?

I'd give the invisible thing an AoO for the mover trying to move past
its threatened area (assuming the invisible thing has reach of at least
5 feet).

Then the mover bumps into the invisible thing and can react if he hasn't
yet moved more than his base movement. Note that the AoO may render the
invisible thing visible, depending on why it is invisible.

- Ron ^*^
 >> Stay informed about: Movement through invisible foe you don't know is there? 

Justisaur wrote:
> Since no one answered my question in my Shackled City 2nd session
> report, I'm re-asking it without the long winded report.
>
> PC tries to move through a square which contains an invisible foe. PC
> doesn't know invisible foe is there. What happens?
>
> Originally I had it end the movement and start an involuntary grapple
> (I forgot the AoO for entering the opponents square, but the construct
> may not have been smart enough to take advantage of it anyway, or may
> have been 'unreliable' at the time). One of my players argued that
> didn't sound right to him, and looked up 'ending movement in an illegal
> square' which indicates they go back to the square where they were last
> instead.
>
> Which of these would be right? Or would it be an overrun or bull rush
> involuntarily? Something else all together?
>
> - Justisaur
>

Unless the invisible foe is also blind or paralyzed or etc., it seems to
me that the ball's in his/her court. He/she can either take the allowed
AOO on the PC for such movement (possibly ending the invisibility if
it's the "normal" type) or simply let the PC pass and not lose
invisibilty if that's the desire.

If said invisible foe is a rogue and takes the AOO, of course he/she
gets sneak attack damage on the attack.
 >> Stay informed about: Movement through invisible foe you don't know is there?