Monster grappling question

Question about the chuul, specifically, because of an encounter last night

A chuul is lurking in the waters of a bog. Myrkl the rogue walks near
the shore and makes his spot check. First, does the chuul really add 10
to his hide check because he is underwater (bonus provided by cover)?
Does water count at cover?

Myrkl makes his spot check and sees the chuul. Initiative rolled. The
chuul wins and bursts out of the water to claw Myrkl

Claw hits, does damage. Free grapple check from improved grab. The
chuul wins the grapple check. Does it now do constrict damage in the
same round as it just did claw damage? This is like getting two hits in
the same round.

So, first round, claw damage and constrict damage to Myrkl. On Myrkyls
turn he draws a dagger and stabs the chuul. Does he get sneak attack
damage because the chuul is grappling? DM says no, I think he's being a
hardass on top of being a hardass about the constrict thing.

Next round. Chuul uses move action to transfer Myrkl to tentacles. Is
no grapple check required to do this?

After the transfer, Myrkl makes his save versus poison. Does this count
as an attack on the part of the chuul?

Chuul gets one attack (DM doesn't think it counts as an attack) and uses
a claw to snip at Myrkl. Can chuul even reach? Also chuul chews on
Myrkl while he is in tentacles. But this doesn't count as an attack?!?
WTF I think my DM is being a royal hardass.

So in the end my rogue is dead because the DM is pretty much of a
hardass. Back me up on this one.

"Nathan Stevens" <nstevens.RemoveThis@cox.net> wrote in message
news:ACoMf.593$TK5.249@dukeread03...
>
> Question about the chuul, specifically, because of an encounter last night
>
> A chuul is lurking in the waters of a bog. Myrkl the rogue walks near the
> shore and makes his spot check. First, does the chuul really add 10 to
> his hide check because he is underwater (bonus provided by cover)? Does
> water count at cover?

The surface of water counts as total cover; Myrkl has total cover from the
chuul, and the chuul has total cover from Myrkl. (DMG p. 93) Maybe he just
had an eyestalk out or something...that would be a +8 or so.

Assuming you could see it (eyestalk), he should be throwing down a +21 or
+23 hide. Your opposed Spot should then be used to identify the distance to
the encounter. Example: say you throw down a +27 spot to his +21 hide.
That +6 difference translates to a 60 foot encounter distance to start. (PH
p.83 gives the Spot mod for distance, I can't find a direct reference to
using it to set up encounter distance)

>
> Myrkl makes his spot check and sees the chuul. Initiative rolled. The
> chuul wins and bursts out of the water to claw Myrkl
>
> Claw hits, does damage. Free grapple check from improved grab. The chuul
> wins the grapple check. Does it now do constrict damage in the same round
> as it just did claw damage? This is like getting two hits in the same
> round.
>

Sounds like the chuul moved to attack Myrkl. So, he doesn't get a full
attack. He makes his attack and does damage. He get's his free improved
grab, wins the grapple...they are now grappled. The Chuul is done.

It's possible that he only had to make a 5' step to approach Myrkl, based
upon your description. If so, he get's his full attacks. He attacks and
does damage. He get's he free improved grab...they are now grappled. The
question then becomes, "can natural attacks and grapples be combined?"
Multiple grapple checks can be made in a single round, if the BAB gives
iterative attacks (PH p. 156). A creature with natural attacks does not get
iterative attacks. The chuul has natural attacks. He has used one. I
don't think it is reasonable to use the second glaw to apply the constrict
damage on the rogue, who is grappled in the first claw...the whole point is
hit--grab--squeeze.

Were I running this, I would not constrict in the same round for the reasons
above.. I ran a mimic a few days ago; I did not constrict on the same
round as the grab.

> So, first round, claw damage and constrict damage to Myrkl. On Myrkyls
> turn he draws a dagger and stabs the chuul. Does he get sneak attack
> damage because the chuul is grappling? DM says no, I think he's being a
> hardass on top of being a hardass about the constrict thing.

Myrkl and the Chuul are grappling. Each loses it's Dex bonus to other
opponents, but not to each other (PH p. 156). So, no sneak attack. I
don't agree with him re: the constrict, but he's right about the sneak
attack.

>
> Next round. Chuul uses move action to transfer Myrkl to tentacles. Is no
> grapple check required to do this?

The description of the ability does not indicate a grapple check. Grapple
checks largely take the place of attacks, not move actions. If it were take
a move action and a grapple check, the text would read that it takes a full
action. So, move action only per the text.


>
> After the transfer, Myrkl makes his save versus poison. Does this count
> as an attack on the part of the chuul?

It's not a save vs. poison, it's a fortitude save vs. paralysis, but that's
trivial. No, it isn't an attack.

>
> Chuul gets one attack (DM doesn't think it counts as an attack) and uses a
> claw to snip at Myrkl. Can chuul even reach? Also chuul chews on Myrkl
> while he is in tentacles. But this doesn't count as an attack?!? WTF I
> think my DM is being a royal hardass.

Strictly per the rules, there is no statement about whether he can reach to
attack. If he could transfer you, he must have been able to reach then, so
why not now? So, having transfered you to the tentacles, seems reasonable
to claw/claw/mandible at that point; the mandible is an artifact of being
in his maw, it's effectively a free action. The text reads "automatically
takes damage from the mandibles."

>
> So in the end my rogue is dead because the DM is pretty much of a hardass.
> Back me up on this one.

The only questions raised for me are: 1) could either of you see each other
through the total cover? and 2) contriction as a grapple (along with the
original attack) should not happen as part of a std. action, or even as a
full action given this critter.

1) He must have envisioned him as partially submerged.
2) the constriction just seems wrong during the same round as the attack
that sets up the grab, for the reasons above.

The Chuul is a CR7 critter. You haven't described the rest of the party, but
if you were alone, I would expect you to be something like 11th level to
deal with this alone, even at a challenging basis. Sounds like a good
chance that the critter was too strong for you. That's highly speculative
re: the party composition, though. This would be a challenging encounter
for four 7th level PCs.

From a character build standpoint, you have to be able to deal with
grapplers. If you can't, you will die. If not this time, then next time.
For a rogue, that usually means ranks in Escape Artist.

Summary: ran the encounter reasonable (except for maybe constrict same
round), but there may be some question about the monster selection and
encounter setup.

David