Martial Arts in GURPS Firefly

Rainbow Warrior <pizza RemoveThis @sbs.com.fr> wrote:
> "forkliftramp.com" <Brian_knowspam.McDonald RemoveThis @shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:kfht925b9323kdcrbp9r8h5eb9j0r8uar2@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 24 Jun 2006 10:28:17 GMT, "Rainbow Warrior" <pizza RemoveThis @sbs.com.fr>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> Yeah...
>>>>
>>>> That's mostly fantasy.
>>>
>>>Like tough guys still fighting with dislocated limbs?
>>>
>> a friend of a friend used to be the head bouncer at clubs in
>> vancouver. he had one guy really go off on him one evening and the
>> guy was just damned scary as he just wouldn't stop. wound up on the
>> floor beat badly and armlocked promised to behave and started swinging
>> again soon as he got up. by the time he hit the floor the second time
>> he had a dislocated elbow. again he said he'd behave and came up
>> swinging. 3rd time round on the floor in an armlock he's promising to
>> behave and the bouncer is threatening to start breaking fingers if he
>> doesn't quit hitting him in the head with his dislocated arm. broke
>> all 5 fingers and the guy still attacked the cops when they showed up.
>>
>> even if the guy was that high on whatever that level of aggression and
>> complete lack of willingness to quit coming at you is chilling.
>
> I don't deny there are people who just don't feel anything, moreso with
> plenty of alcohol, most should feel the effects of such an encounter the
> next day though and hopefully learn from the experience.

It's not just alcohol. Simple adrenaline and endorphine can do that to
you. A martial artist who is used to people backing down once they have
a dislocated limb, is going to be at a real disadvantage when he meets
someone with real tenacity and killer instinct.

Also, the vast majority of martial arts simply don't train for this
kind of thing at all. They assume both participants are standing,
facing each other, and have some space around them. They don't
prepare you for chairs getting thrown at you.

I think anything other than Gracie jujitsu and some of the extremely
pragmatic forms of pencak silat and possibly kung fu, just aren't
going to be a whole lot of use in a brawl with a much tougher guy.

Breaking limbs is generally an excellent defense, but you can't
reliably count on that working in every situation.


mcv.
 >> Stay informed about: Martial Arts in GURPS Firefly 

Shawn Wilson <ikonoqlast.TakeThisOut@cox.net> wrote:
>
> The only martial art I would recommend for women who want to actually defend
> themselves (for recreation whatever turns you on is fine) is Ninjitsu. Not
> the 'Sooper sekret ultra assassin' bullshit, but the real thing, where every
> maneuver ends with "..and then run away". The Nike maneuver is by far the
> best thing for women to do, because she isn't going to win a fight against
> someone who outweighs her by 50 or 100 lbs.

Years ago I hung out on rec.martial-arts, and just about everybody there
considered "nike-do" and "reebok-do" to be the best martial arts. The
smart fighter avoids real fights.


mcv.
 >> Stay informed about: Martial Arts in GURPS Firefly 

"mcv" <mcvmcv RemoveThis @xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:44a1053a$0$31653$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl...
> Rainbow Warrior <pizza RemoveThis @sbs.com.fr> wrote:
>> "forkliftramp.com" <Brian_knowspam.McDonald RemoveThis @shaw.ca> wrote in message
>> news:kfht925b9323kdcrbp9r8h5eb9j0r8uar2@4ax.com...
>>> On Sat, 24 Jun 2006 10:28:17 GMT, "Rainbow Warrior" <pizza RemoveThis @sbs.com.fr>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Yeah...
>>>>>
>>>>> That's mostly fantasy.
>>>>
>>>>Like tough guys still fighting with dislocated limbs?
>>>>
>>> a friend of a friend used to be the head bouncer at clubs in
>>> vancouver. he had one guy really go off on him one evening and the
>>> guy was just damned scary as he just wouldn't stop. wound up on the
>>> floor beat badly and armlocked promised to behave and started swinging
>>> again soon as he got up. by the time he hit the floor the second time
>>> he had a dislocated elbow. again he said he'd behave and came up
>>> swinging. 3rd time round on the floor in an armlock he's promising to
>>> behave and the bouncer is threatening to start breaking fingers if he
>>> doesn't quit hitting him in the head with his dislocated arm. broke
>>> all 5 fingers and the guy still attacked the cops when they showed up.
>>>
>>> even if the guy was that high on whatever that level of aggression and
>>> complete lack of willingness to quit coming at you is chilling.
>>
>> I don't deny there are people who just don't feel anything, moreso with
>> plenty of alcohol, most should feel the effects of such an encounter the
>> next day though and hopefully learn from the experience.
>
> It's not just alcohol. Simple adrenaline and endorphine can do that to
> you. A martial artist who is used to people backing down once they have
> a dislocated limb, is going to be at a real disadvantage when he meets
> someone with real tenacity and killer instinct.
>
> Also, the vast majority of martial arts simply don't train for this
> kind of thing at all. They assume both participants are standing,
> facing each other, and have some space around them. They don't
> prepare you for chairs getting thrown at you.
>
> I think anything other than Gracie jujitsu and some of the extremely
> pragmatic forms of pencak silat and possibly kung fu, just aren't
> going to be a whole lot of use in a brawl with a much tougher guy.
>
> Breaking limbs is generally an excellent defense, but you can't
> reliably count on that working in every situation.
>
> mcv.

Still If I was small in build I'd prefer to have martial arts rather than
rely on brawling skills.
 >> Stay informed about: Martial Arts in GURPS Firefly 

"mcv" <mcvmcv DeleteThis @xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:44a11777$0$31641$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl...
> Shawn Wilson <ikonoqlast DeleteThis @cox.net> wrote:
>>
>> The only martial art I would recommend for women who want to actually
>> defend
>> themselves (for recreation whatever turns you on is fine) is Ninjitsu.
>> Not
>> the 'Sooper sekret ultra assassin' bullshit, but the real thing, where
>> every
>> maneuver ends with "..and then run away". The Nike maneuver is by far
>> the
>> best thing for women to do, because she isn't going to win a fight
>> against
>> someone who outweighs her by 50 or 100 lbs.
>
> Years ago I hung out on rec.martial-arts, and just about everybody there
> considered "nike-do" and "reebok-do" to be the best martial arts. The
> smart fighter avoids real fights.
>
> mcv.

Yes, if you really use you brain well you won't be there when the fight
starts or wont cause one to start.
 >> Stay informed about: Martial Arts in GURPS Firefly 

"mcv" wrote:
> Breaking limbs is generally an excellent defense, but you can't
> reliably count on that working in every situation.

Absolutely. This is where your other skills (Continuous situational
awareness, observation skills, calling in for appropriate backup, and/or not
putting yourself in a situation with a deranged person or group in the first
place), should be practiced.

Practice being safe as much as possible... And uh... Keep your reflexes
sharp.
:")

Re,
Dirk
 >> Stay informed about: Martial Arts in GURPS Firefly 

On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:28:00 GMT, "Rainbow Warrior" <pizza.RemoveThis@sbs.com.fr>
wrote:

>"forkliftramp.com" <Brian_knowspam.McDonald.RemoveThis@shaw.ca> wrote in message
>news:kfht925b9323kdcrbp9r8h5eb9j0r8uar2@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 24 Jun 2006 10:28:17 GMT, "Rainbow Warrior" <pizza.RemoveThis@sbs.com.fr>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> Yeah...
>>>>
>>>> That's mostly fantasy.
>>>
>>>Like tough guys still fighting with dislocated limbs?
>>>
>> a friend of a friend used to be the head bouncer at clubs in
>> vancouver. he had one guy really go off on him one evening and the
>> guy was just damned scary as he just wouldn't stop. wound up on the
>> floor beat badly and armlocked promised to behave and started swinging
>> again soon as he got up. by the time he hit the floor the second time
>> he had a dislocated elbow. again he said he'd behave and came up
>> swinging. 3rd time round on the floor in an armlock he's promising to
>> behave and the bouncer is threatening to start breaking fingers if he
>> doesn't quit hitting him in the head with his dislocated arm. broke
>> all 5 fingers and the guy still attacked the cops when they showed up.
>>
>> even if the guy was that high on whatever that level of aggression and
>> complete lack of willingness to quit coming at you is chilling.
>
>I don't deny there are people who just don't feel anything, moreso with
>plenty of alcohol, most should feel the effects of such an encounter the
>next day though and hopefully learn from the experience.
>

i thnk the only one who "learned" anything was the bouncer who
discovered that lo breaking people's fingers in public WILL get you
charged regardless of the idiot's prior behaviour. he also discovered
that his employer's promises of backing should any legal problems were
utterly without worth.
 >> Stay informed about: Martial Arts in GURPS Firefly 

On 27 Jun 2006 10:15:22 GMT, mcv <mcvmcv.RemoveThis@xs4all.nl> wrote:


>Also, the vast majority of martial arts simply don't train for this
>kind of thing at all. They assume both participants are standing,
>facing each other, and have some space around them. They don't
>prepare you for chairs getting thrown at you.
>
>I think anything other than Gracie jujitsu and some of the extremely
>pragmatic forms of pencak silat and possibly kung fu, just aren't
>going to be a whole lot of use in a brawl with a much tougher guy.

>mcv.

it's not the fault of the martial arts by and large. most martial
arts have honest to god combat value if they are properly trained.
most of the folks in north america take martial arts it seems a means
of self defense and possibly as good exercise. to be really effective
you need to be willing to seriously injure or even kill your foe and
most folks aren't willing to do that.
 >> Stay informed about: Martial Arts in GURPS Firefly 

On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 01:40:06 GMT, "D.T.Collins"
<dirk.collins.TakeThisOut@verizon.net> wrote:

>Women as a general rule, are faster, and more accurate. Historically, where
>women have chosen professional roles as warriors, they have accomplished far
>more than men, and against men. Boudica, Joan of Arc, and the Amazons vs.
>the Greeks come to mind immediately. There's more to be found on this with a
>bit of research I suspect.
>
>Re,
>Dirk
>
>

boudicca was a leader and politician not a frontline warrior. joan
d'arc much the same. the amazons seem to have existed alright but not
at a time frame that allowed them to interact with the classic hellene
cultures. there was a considerable geographic separation between the
two. what we do know of the amazons suggests they were archers not
melee types which kinda kills your point about women's effectiveness
in hand to hand combat.

women lack the upper body strength of men in the vast majority of
cases and this puts them at a significant disadvantage in a real
fight.
 >> Stay informed about: Martial Arts in GURPS Firefly 

"forkliftramp.com" <Brian_knowspam.McDonald.TakeThisOut@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:pdn3a2539246de14v232ak604ivqcjnv6t@4ax.com...
> On 27 Jun 2006 10:15:22 GMT, mcv <mcvmcv.TakeThisOut@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>
>
>>Also, the vast majority of martial arts simply don't train for this
>>kind of thing at all. They assume both participants are standing,
>>facing each other, and have some space around them. They don't
>>prepare you for chairs getting thrown at you.
>>
>>I think anything other than Gracie jujitsu and some of the extremely
>>pragmatic forms of pencak silat and possibly kung fu, just aren't
>>going to be a whole lot of use in a brawl with a much tougher guy.
>
>>mcv.
>
> it's not the fault of the martial arts by and large. most martial
> arts have honest to god combat value if they are properly trained.
> most of the folks in north america take martial arts it seems a means
> of self defense and possibly as good exercise. to be really effective
> you need to be willing to seriously injure or even kill your foe and
> most folks aren't willing to do that.

Then again no matter what size you are you chances are better if you learn
ways how & not how to punch someone or see read their body language rather
than rely on what you have learnt from 3 or 4 previous drunken bar room
scuffles.
 >> Stay informed about: Martial Arts in GURPS Firefly 

D.T.Collins wrote:

> I never count on being able to take out the bigger guy (Or the smaller one
> for that matter). I do count on the cavalry though, that is, reinforcements
> until numerical superior.
>
> And uh, If it's just me and the big guy, and the cavalry is on the way, then
> I'm still in, even if it doesn't look good. An aggressor, or criminal needs
> to be slowed down, so the good guys get a great opportunity to round them
> up.
>

Having been following this thread, I would like to point out a couple of
things that seem to have been missed, per my MA expert, and my experience.

1) MA training usually stresses "avoid conflict whenever possible"
2) The Drunk, "bad guy" etc is seldom thinking of killing his opponent,
but in simply doing damage -"beat'em into submission"
3) MA training is -usually- to disable the threat in the shortest time
4) MA advanced training is to eliminate the threat, when other options
are not available.
5) The gun at 20ft or more wins. (As I have pointed out before, if you
draw the gun it should be firing as it comes level! Talking is over!)

Realistically, the bouncer upthread exercised poor judgement!
 >> Stay informed about: Martial Arts in GURPS Firefly 

> Have you given any thought to the GURPS gun rules?
> Firefly is a universe where everyone carries guns and
> no one seems to wear any armor, and using GURPS
> rules that's likely to result in lots and lots of dead
> characters. I

Well, in a sense this is a function of the writer of a TV show being in
complete control over what happens to his characters. However, I don't
know that I entirely agree with this observation. Most of the fighting
characters probably have good strength/health and good hitpoints. Most
handguns do 2d or 3d, and a character is unlikely to get to full
negative HT with one hit. They have a kick-ass surgeon to patch them
up. Malcom Reynolds probably has several levels of Hard to Kill.
 >> Stay informed about: Martial Arts in GURPS Firefly 

On 28 Jun 2006 12:38:38 -0700, "Scooter the Mighty"
<Greyguy3 RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>> Have you given any thought to the GURPS gun rules?
>> Firefly is a universe where everyone carries guns and
>> no one seems to wear any armor, and using GURPS
>> rules that's likely to result in lots and lots of dead
>> characters. I
>
>Well, in a sense this is a function of the writer of a TV show being in
>complete control over what happens to his characters. However, I don't
>know that I entirely agree with this observation. Most of the fighting
>characters probably have good strength/health and good hitpoints. Most
>handguns do 2d or 3d, and a character is unlikely to get to full
>negative HT with one hit. They have a kick-ass surgeon to patch them
>up. Malcom Reynolds probably has several levels of Hard to Kill.

Also just because nobody seems to wear armour doesn't mean that nobody
actually wears armour. After, all this is a world where things that
look like revolvers have capacitors.
 >> Stay informed about: Martial Arts in GURPS Firefly 

David Johnston wrote:
> On 28 Jun 2006 12:38:38 -0700, "Scooter the Mighty"
> <Greyguy3.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >> Have you given any thought to the GURPS gun rules?
> >> Firefly is a universe where everyone carries guns and
> >> no one seems to wear any armor, and using GURPS
> >> rules that's likely to result in lots and lots of dead
> >> characters. I
> >
> >Well, in a sense this is a function of the writer of a TV show being in
> >complete control over what happens to his characters. However, I don't
> >know that I entirely agree with this observation. Most of the fighting
> >characters probably have good strength/health and good hitpoints. Most
> >handguns do 2d or 3d, and a character is unlikely to get to full
> >negative HT with one hit.

True. And on the show, the characters tend to get hit only once,
or possibly more than once in a "just a flesh wound" kind of way.
In a GURPS firefight, though, the characters are pretty likely to
get hit more than once. As you say, the big difference is the
writers deciding what happens rather than random dice rolls.

> >They have a kick-ass surgeon to patch them
> >up. Malcom Reynolds probably has several levels of Hard to Kill.

Hard to Kill could work, but if it's meant to be anything like common
it might be easier to change the rules for dying and healing. I do
agree that Simon's care helps quite a bit, and I think I said earlier
that having characters heal faster than the rules allow when under
competent medical care could go a long way towards solving the
problem. Another way to do it would be to just fudge the amount
of time between adventures. "Okay, it's been awhile since the
gunfight at the OK shipyard, and y'all're healed back up to
normal. You get a wave from an old friend of Jayne's..."

Either way would allow gunfights to be as deadly as the GM
wants them to be without the annoying downtime when characters
are partially or fully disabled while healing up. That'd fit the
setting pretty well, I think.


> Also just because nobody seems to wear armour doesn't mean that nobody
> actually wears armour. After, all this is a world where things that
> look like revolvers have capacitors.

True. Even a few DR from normal clothing (a loose kevlar-ish weave?
Sounds good enough to me, though it probably makes no real-world
sense) would help quite a bit.

Pete
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