Long ago we heard about an upcoming UEA update

Another idea that a friend gave to me: remove hiper jump and remove
Jumppoint Generator and add Warp Chunneler. Could be fine.

Greetings

Lord Lancelot wrote:
> Amaranthine wrote:
> > As two great flavors that may taste TOO good together, what about
> > preventing a Pax from being chunneled, and a Firecloud (and Firestorm
> > and Junk) from jumping with a Pax?
>
> I would like such a limitation.
>
> The Pax has 450 kt fuel tank, at 50kt of fuel per ship he bring along,
> he can have up to 8 ship per Pax. (450 fuel to move 9 ships)
>
> The wing could cost 1fuel per wing, or zero.
>
> Lord Lancelot
 >> Stay informed about: Long ago we heard about an upcoming UEA update 

Chaos wrote:
> Another idea that a friend gave to me: remove hiper jump and remove
> Jumppoint Generator and add Warp Chunneler. Could be fine.
>

At least their is defenses vs HYP, and IMO warp chunnel is more
powerful and powerful for 100% of the game. It would make the UEA
stronger.
 >> Stay informed about: Long ago we heard about an upcoming UEA update 

An interesting discussion until now. I have never played UEA myself but
I have been allied two times and the food part of the redistribution c.
is the most important one.

I suggest that the amount of contra you can sell in a round depends on
the number of colonists on your base. 1 kt contra for every 50.000
colonists. In result you can just support the city and the colonists.

Regarding the Pax, I must admit, that for instance Rebels also hyper
their whole fleet, so why should the UEA not? Well they save a lot of
fuel, thats true and they still have the option to move by normal
speed.

Suggestion: The Pax should use more fuel (say 200 kt) if he uses the
jump point generator.

Another thing mentioned before: JPG should work in a fashion like now
with CC: JOE. Only escorting ships should go on the hyperjump trip. No
Pods, no fighters.

Joyride
 >> Stay informed about: Long ago we heard about an upcoming UEA update 

The deadliest milirary power of the UEA is the 25% control damage of
their exploding grav mine, this is cumulative and is not affected by
the target mass, like ALL other exploding minefields of EVERY other
races in the game.

It is way too much, it could be reduce to 5% control damage and still
be very powerful, + the mass of the ship should reduce the damage
taken.

Now if you take one Pax, and many cheap maxims, Hyp to your neigboor,
move the maxims after hyp lay cloaked grav mine all over the place,
next turn you have a HW defending fleet, disabled, you can board them,
or blow them up, it does not matter if the enemy had 4 ships or 400...,
you only have to take care of the fighter you only need some sandcaster
and flakes (remember we are very early in the game, not having PD turbo
laser available yet)

You have to be a good player to do this very fast, but it is not that
hard.
I have seen senator guru, using this tactic on a small map, taking out
10 players HW by turn 25.

The size of the map is not that important so long the UEA can get to
his next target in 1 or 2 turns.

Lord Lancelot
 >> Stay informed about: Long ago we heard about an upcoming UEA update 

Technically, you would get double what you would need to support the
city.
While the first 50,000 consumes the same amount of food as the first
100,000, it does not extend beyond that.

For example, 100,000 colonists would be converting 2kt for 6 Food, but
only using 3. 1,000,000 colonists would be converting 20kt for 60
Food, but only using 30. Limiting it to 1kt per 100k would do what you
say.

The idea does have merit though. I suppose the primary question that
needs to be asked, is: Is the Redistribution Center meant to be a
supplemental or primary source of material.

If only a supplemental, then the above restriction could indeed be the
way to go.
If it is to be the primary source, then my modification, above, could
be the way.

Joyride wrote:
> I suggest that the amount of contra you can sell in a round depends on
> the number of colonists on your base. 1 kt contra for every 50.000
> colonists. In result you can just support the city and the colonists.
 >> Stay informed about: Long ago we heard about an upcoming UEA update 

Rebel or EE do not move after hyp.

When trapped in grav mine or well, they move at 20-40ly.

While the UEA move after HYP, and has warp 190 speed and tower.

Furtermore the UEA spread many cheap maxims and with cheap ord, lay
many grav mines, and disable an entire enemy fleet.

I have played the Rebel the EE The are nothing like the UEA they both
have big flaw and are extremly slow warp and prone to boarding, trap
and ambush, the UEA his the best of HYP and warp and can move a huge
fleet over vast distance 650ly.

We have yet to see any real weakness in the UEA, that cannot be fixed
by UEA abilities.

The Rebel and EE are limited to 400 ly HYp when moving fleet, because
their mine layer / sweeper can only go at that speed.

P.S.
I also played the UEA.

Lord Lancelot
 >> Stay informed about: Long ago we heard about an upcoming UEA update 

Exactly. The race does have "weaknesses" designed into them, but other
abilities negate them.
This is generally not the fault of the creator of the UEA. The huge
gains from contra was matched by the huge gains other races could make
in the market.
I'm not sure if "backbreeding" was taken into account for the
Retraining Center, but its purpose was to allow a force of Troops to be
created, even with the low growth rate.

Perhaps the backbreeding rate of Troops should be reduced? The
training methods of the UEA make their troops excellent in the arts of
War, but their abilities in the arts of Love are, shall we say,
stunted?

Note, that if everything here was implemented, then the UEA would
likely be crippled. So we need to come up with a subset of these (and
any other ideas) to submit to Greg for him to approve/reject and then
send on to Tim.

In general:
ITEM #1: Redistribution Center needs tweaking.

ITEM #2: UEA extreme mobility needs addressing.

ITEM #3: Retraining Center can turn UEA into high growth race.

ITEM #4: System damage from Grav Mines makes capture TOO easy.

Does this cover it?

Sebastian wrote:
> > We have yet to see any real weakness in the UEA, that cannot be fixed
> > by UEA abilities.
>
> As far as I understood the design the weakness should have been their low
> grow.
> But by their other boni they can avoid beeing hold back by that stat.
>
> Sebastian
 >> Stay informed about: Long ago we heard about an upcoming UEA update 

> We have yet to see any real weakness in the UEA, that cannot be fixed
> by UEA abilities.

As far as I understood the design the weakness should have been their low
grow.
But by their other boni they can avoid beeing hold back by that stat.

Sebastian
 >> Stay informed about: Long ago we heard about an upcoming UEA update 

> In general:
> ITEM #1: Redistribution Center needs tweaking.
>
> ITEM #2: UEA extreme mobility needs addressing.
>
> ITEM #3: Retraining Center can turn UEA into high growth race.
>
> ITEM #4: System damage from Grav Mines makes capture TOO easy.
>
> Does this cover it?

Yes but my pick order are

4 System damage from Grav Mines makes capture / disable TOO easy. witch
lead to easy kill enemies HW extremly early.
4B Maxim could be tweaked removing mine sweeper and costing a bit more,
or limiting the number of ship, that can travel with the Pax.
1 Redistribution Center needs tweaking.
2 UEA extreme mobility needs addressing.
3 Retraining Center can turn UEA into high growth race.
 >> Stay informed about: Long ago we heard about an upcoming UEA update 

First off, I always watch threads about my races. I usually allow them
to play out and comment when I feel the need.

Let me first explain my race. The UEA are a police state. While they
share some design and themes with existing sci-fi, they are not based
on any existing sci-fi universe. The original premise is an extreme
interpretation of the USA as seen by the world. The UEA are meant to
capture, to disable, to impound and to imprison. To this end I will
keep trying to improve on that.

The UEA's best strength is it's ship list. That is primary. Their
primary weakness is economical. So effective was their weakness, they
required several updates to balance. As mentioned, the game changed
from under the UEA, however, their updates added to their flavor.

Allow me to comment on the 4 points of concern raised in this message.

> In general:
> ITEM #1: Redistribution Center needs tweaking.
>

Next update, this will be done.

> ITEM #2: UEA extreme mobility needs addressing.
>

Mobility is a key trait of the UEA. The Pax uses a device created by
Tim. I've not seen a single idea on changing it's function that I
like. The only thing that comes close is a fuel increase.

> ITEM #3: Retraining Center can turn UEA into high growth race.
>

This is under review by a trusted and skilled player whose experience
is well known.

> ITEM #4: System damage from Grav Mines makes capture TOO easy.
>

When I first was working on the UEA, I wanted a way from them to come
into an area of space and shutdown ships, call it an "Enforcement
Action" That idea turned into the Super Taser, but that wasn't exactly
what I wanted. So born were the Grav Mines. I had suggested to Tim
their effect be based on the ships Damage to Sys Modifier, but he made
it 25%. I'm still not convinced capture is TOO easy.

Please, continue the discussion,
Greg Bahr
UEA Creator


Amaranthine wrote:
> Exactly. The race does have "weaknesses" designed into them, but other
> abilities negate them.
> This is generally not the fault of the creator of the UEA. The huge
> gains from contra was matched by the huge gains other races could make
> in the market.
> I'm not sure if "backbreeding" was taken into account for the
> Retraining Center, but its purpose was to allow a force of Troops to be
> created, even with the low growth rate.
>
> Perhaps the backbreeding rate of Troops should be reduced? The
> training methods of the UEA make their troops excellent in the arts of
> War, but their abilities in the arts of Love are, shall we say,
> stunted?
>
> Note, that if everything here was implemented, then the UEA would
> likely be crippled. So we need to come up with a subset of these (and
> any other ideas) to submit to Greg for him to approve/reject and then
> send on to Tim.
>
> In general:
> ITEM #1: Redistribution Center needs tweaking.
>
> ITEM #2: UEA extreme mobility needs addressing.
>
> ITEM #3: Retraining Center can turn UEA into high growth race.
>
> ITEM #4: System damage from Grav Mines makes capture TOO easy.
>
> Does this cover it?
>
> Sebastian wrote:
> > > We have yet to see any real weakness in the UEA, that cannot be fixed
> > > by UEA abilities.
> >
> > As far as I understood the design the weakness should have been their low
> > grow.
> > But by their other boni they can avoid beeing hold back by that stat.
> >
> > Sebastian
 >> Stay informed about: Long ago we heard about an upcoming UEA update 

Greg Bahr wrote:

> Next update, this will be done.
Can you give details about releasing date and the changes?


> > ITEM #3: Retraining Center can turn UEA into high growth race.

In a current game at RCworld my UEA are at turn 25. undercities, 10
PSP, millions of POWs, 784 hawking institutes amd TOTA gives my UEA
actually over 10% growth each turn. They send 15-20k each turn into GB
and leave 10k-15k per turn at the HW. We started with 2M colonists.

In another game at turn 25 at Drewhead we started with 1M. So I must go
a couple of turns to reach the former level, but I think the growth now
will soon reach the 10% (till trn 30).

UEA can reach undercities quite fast (turn 20-30) should be possible.
>From this time their natural growth is 1.05*0.075*1.3=0.102375=10.2%.
At this time the first millions of POWs where captured. And till this
time I think only a growth of 4%-5% took place as they used large
amounts of colonists for training (6.4% are normally posibble). But
this is no problem as at an investment of 1900mc, 300sup, 100food,
5000col, 2500crew, 10000troop you got a mining world which can send at
the start 1000mc to the GB or your HW each turn. Due to rebreeding this
will increase over the turns. I think till turn 25-30 15-20 of such
worlds are not difficult.This are 20k cash for example to the GB each
turn. The Feds colonists equivalent of such an additional income is
~10M colonists.

If you do it right then you very soon reach happiness levels of 250 or
higher at your HW. Together with your double city income 1M UEA
colonists on the HW are the same as 1.7M Fed colonists on a Fed HW.

So in the game at RCworld I make money as if I were a Fed with ~20M
colonists. A Fed must had a mean growth rate of 12.7% over the turns
to reach such level.

With a reasonable number of POWs and hawking institutes (several
miliions POWs and 3000 institutes) you can bring your growth for 10-20
turns up to ~13% (later it goes back to 10,2%)

So in my eyes the UEA are real powerhouse in any stage of a game if
played suited.

But it will a hard job to reach this levels. You have to do a
reasonable amount of micro management to reach this stages.

> > ITEM #4: System damage from Grav Mines makes capture TOO easy.
> it 25%. I'm still not convinced capture is TOO easy.

It is always a matter of what your oponents allows you to do. But
against a race which naturally have no protection against hyper jumpers
it is fun to jump in in th first step from nowwhere and cover the
target with a few GMFs. Next turn you blow up the mines jump in with
your ships and caputere them all.

So if you see your opponents before the opponents see you (what is
likely due to the good scann range of UEA ships) your opponents are
often a too easy prey.

GFM GToeroe

BTW: Correct me if there are errors in my calculations. I'm not
perfect.
 >> Stay informed about: Long ago we heard about an upcoming UEA update 

GFM GToeroe wrote:
> Greg Bahr wrote:

> So in the game at RCworld I make money as if I were a Fed with ~20M
> colonists. A Fed must had a mean growth rate of 12.7% over the turns
> to reach such level.

Its 9.6% as we started with 2M colonists

GFM GToeroe
 >> Stay informed about: Long ago we heard about an upcoming UEA update 

Greg Bahr wrote:
> First off, I always watch threads about my races. I usually allow them
> to play out and comment when I feel the need.
>
<snip>
>
> Allow me to comment on the 4 points of concern raised in this message.
> > In general:
> > ITEM #1: Redistribution Center needs tweaking.
> >
>
> Next update, this will be done.

Can you give details? Once we know this, we will have an idea how it
will trickle into all other concerns.

> > ITEM #2: UEA extreme mobility needs addressing.
> >
>
> Mobility is a key trait of the UEA. The Pax uses a device created by
> Tim. I've not seen a single idea on changing it's function that I
> like. The only thing that comes close is a fuel increase.

Perhaps dropping its range to 400? That would be equal to the minimum
distances the EE and Rebels can jump and each of their ships need to
burn fuel to do it. Bump the Tech4 Strikeship up to 400 (or at least
380, to get the most out of a Warhop). The Tech8 Strikeship now has
the longest range in the fleet,

Increase the metal needed for a Pax to 50D, 50T, 100M, bumping it into
the L3 category and bumping its fuel cost a bit. Probably still need
to at least double the fuel use.

<snip>
> > ITEM #4: System damage from Grav Mines makes capture TOO easy.
> >
>
> When I first was working on the UEA, I wanted a way from them to come
> into an area of space and shutdown ships, call it an "Enforcement
> Action" That idea turned into the Super Taser, but that wasn't exactly
> what I wanted. So born were the Grav Mines. I had suggested to Tim
> their effect be based on the ships Damage to Sys Modifier, but he made
> it 25%. I'm still not convinced capture is TOO easy.

I haven't had any experience with this myself (even having just come
out of a game with a UEA neighbor). Others stated this concern, so I
added it to the list.



Below are some potential ship-list changes, not to change the balance,
but just to enhance its flavor by removing redundant "generic" ships.

Remove Small, Medium and Large DSFs and Super Transport. Leave the
Small Transport, as it is minimally armed. The Sentinal and Hammer
(supplemented with Small Transport) can easily do the job of the DSFs
while the Ranger and/or Law Dog can do any duties that a Super
Transport would do. Replace 4 starting MSDFs with 4 Small Transports
and 1 Hammer. This would reinforce their military aspect, as even
ships doing freighter duty would be armed and could quickly convert to
war use.

Remove the Alaska Class Refinery Ship. The Ranger has the Ore
Processor and DTMS-N fuel converter.

The Neutronic Fuel Tanker could also be removed. If the need to carry
fuel long distances (at warp speeds) is required, bump the fuel tank of
the Informant up a few hundred to compensate. This will have no effect
on the range of the Informant, as its mass and warp drag already allow
it to travel virtually unlimited by fuel concerns (FTL-5 burns 1 kt at
full speed and Transwarps may not burn any). Travelling with a full
tank would, of course, increase the fuel used.

The Merlin stays, as it has the only Alchemy device.

I believe that these changes would have zero effect on the strength of
the race, only reinforcing its image as a primarily military
organization.
 >> Stay informed about: Long ago we heard about an upcoming UEA update