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Since: May 13, 2005 Posts: 1292
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:21 am
Post subject: Lists Archived from groups: comp>sys>ibm>pc>games>war-historical (more info?)
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Hi,
The end of the year always sees all kinds of lists appearing. The top
10 movies at the box office or the top 10 selling cars of the year
etc. I tend to find these lists amusing mostly because there's always
one or two items in there for which you go "nah, can't be, there's no
way people were stupid enough to watch *that* movie or to buy *that*
car.
Yesterday, while looking for a particular article in The General I
came upon something I had forgotten entirely : Avalon Hill used to
publish a list of their top-sellers each year and also a cumulative
all-time best sellers list. So we're back in 1985 - it's almost the
end of the AH era - which game do you think heads the list of their
all-time best sellers ? Is it Squad Leader ? Is it Diplomacy ? Is it
Third Reich ?
Nope, it's "Outdoor Survival" , followed by "Facts in Five" on the
number 2 spot. In fact 8 out of the top 20 games are not wargames at
all. An accountant looking at this would conclude that their hit rate
with non-wargames was higher than their wargame hit rate ...
Ok, so what were their 3 top selling wargames then ? Surely the ones
mentioned above ? Again, this is a bit surprising but the top-3
wargames were Panzerblitz, Panzer Leader and Tactics II - all entry
level wargames.
Surprising ain't it ?
Now, the reason AH made this public is probably because gamers like to
know what other gamers are playing. It influences their buying
decision as they get confirmation a game for which they've been
sitting on the fence is a hit. People are more willing to spend money
on something if they know lots of other people are buying it too. "<X>
items sold already" remains a powerful marketing slogan.
So, question : do you think it would be a good idea for wargame
publishers to publish such a top-10 list ? And would it influence your
buying decision ?
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx >> Stay informed about: Lists |
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Since: May 13, 2005 Posts: 1292
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:12 am
Post subject: Re: Lists [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 31 dec, 10:43, Giftzwerg <giftzwerg....DeleteThis@NOSPAMZ.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Is it? There are always more students in CS101: INTRO TO PROGRAMMING
> than in CS520: COMPILER DESIGN. That's the nature of introductory vs
> advanced materials.
You're looking at it too rational
If wargame developers would look at it this way, wouldn't we see more
Advanced Tactics games and less War in the Pacifics ?
What I mean is : when I go over the list of wargames published this
year there are just a few "introductory" level wargames, but a high
number of medium level and even monster games.
Isn't that a bit silly from a sales pov ?
> I mean, who bought
> TR without already owning PANZERBLITZ?
<raises hand> - I got them in reversed order
> I'm also not very surprised that the non-wargames were more popular with
> the gaming public; just yesterday, I used up some gift cards and bought
> BIOSHOCK, GEARS OF WAR, and SOLDIER OF FORTUNE: PAYBACK. Not a wargame
> among them.
>
> Maybe Matrix should start offering gift cards.
<sigh> It has been suggested in here before. *every* wargame outfit
should have a big red button on their main webpage saying "wargame
widows, buy a voucher here". A multi-publisher, multi-genre store like
NWS would profit from this enormously.
Vouchers may look like dumb gifts, but for me they aren't - my hobby
is too specialized for someone else to guess what I'd like or not, so
vouchers make a lot of sense.
The "loot" I got this X-Mas included 3 vouchers, 2 of them from a
military history bookstore run by a single guy who - according to the
one I got it from - told him he sells a truckload of them each year to
wives looking for a present for their hubbies.
I already planned when I'm going to visit his bookstore - and I'll
probably end up buying twice the amount of the value on those
vouchers.
There's no way vouchers aren't a great idea and neglecting to
implement it in your webshop borders on the criminal.
<end of pro-voucher rant>
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx >> Stay informed about: Lists |
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Since: May 13, 2005 Posts: 1292
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:29 am
Post subject: Re: Lists [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 31 dec, 12:59, Giftzwerg <giftzwerg... DeleteThis @NOSPAMZ.hotmail.com> wrote:
> What's a "military history bookstore?"
http://www.dekrijger.com/home.html
That single html page is their entire website. It's a bookstore which
has nothing but military history books. 30K different titles crammed
into several floors of a small warehouse and connecting rooms, looking
a bit like the library in "The Name of the Rose". Last time I went I
spend about $200 there - it's a wargamer's dream. I know I can get
most of these titles through Amazon, but I like to leaf through a book
first to see if the level of detail and general style is to my liking
- something which you can't do on a website.
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx >> Stay informed about: Lists |
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Since: Mar 23, 2005 Posts: 728
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:43 am
Post subject: Re: Lists [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <0ed2a890-20ba-43ef-9f9f-e69ecbc3e6f1@
1g2000hsl.googlegroups.com>, eddysterckx RemoveThis @hotmail.com says...
> Yesterday, while looking for a particular article in The General I
> came upon something I had forgotten entirely : Avalon Hill used to
> publish a list of their top-sellers each year and also a cumulative
> all-time best sellers list. So we're back in 1985 - it's almost the
> end of the AH era - which game do you think heads the list of their
> all-time best sellers ? Is it Squad Leader ? Is it Diplomacy ? Is it
> Third Reich ?
>
> Nope, it's "Outdoor Survival" , followed by "Facts in Five" on the
> number 2 spot. In fact 8 out of the top 20 games are not wargames at
> all. An accountant looking at this would conclude that their hit rate
> with non-wargames was higher than their wargame hit rate ...
>
> Ok, so what were their 3 top selling wargames then ? Surely the ones
> mentioned above ? Again, this is a bit surprising but the top-3
> wargames were Panzerblitz, Panzer Leader and Tactics II - all entry
> level wargames.
>
> Surprising ain't it ?
Is it? There are always more students in CS101: INTRO TO PROGRAMMING
than in CS520: COMPILER DESIGN. That's the nature of introductory vs
advanced materials. If we made a Venn diagram of AH wargame buyers and
their purchases, THIRD REICH would almost certainly be a small circle
99% inside a bigger circle representing PANZERBLITZ. I mean, who bought
TR without already owning PANZERBLITZ?
I'm also not very surprised that the non-wargames were more popular with
the gaming public; just yesterday, I used up some gift cards and bought
BIOSHOCK, GEARS OF WAR, and SOLDIER OF FORTUNE: PAYBACK. Not a wargame
among them.
Maybe Matrix should start offering gift cards.
--
Giftzwerg
***
"Are you impressed with a drop in home values of 6.6% over a year? It
doesn't seem like such a big correction, given the dramatic run-up in
prices over the last decade or so. ... And don't declining prices make
housing more ... what's the word? ... affordable?"
- Mickey Kaus >> Stay informed about: Lists |
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Since: Dec 15, 2007 Posts: 5
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Lists [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Dec 31, 3:21 am, "eddyster...@hotmail.com"
<eddyster....RemoveThis@hotmail.com> > Yesterday, while looking for a particular
article in The General I
> came upon something I had forgotten entirely : Avalon Hill used to
> publish a list of their top-sellers each year and also a cumulative
> all-time best sellers list. So we're back in 1985 - it's almost the
> end of the AH era - which game do you think heads the list of their
> all-time best sellers ? Is it Squad Leader ? Is it Diplomacy ? Is it
> Third Reich ?
What where the glory years for war boardgaming? If this list is from
the end of that period, I'm not surprised to see wargames tanking.
Here's to the new golden age... >> Stay informed about: Lists |
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Since: Oct 19, 2007 Posts: 58
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:33 pm
Post subject: Re: Lists [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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eddysterckx.DeleteThis@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> Yesterday, while looking for a particular article in The General I
> came upon something I had forgotten entirely : Avalon Hill used to
> publish a list of their top-sellers each year and also a cumulative
> all-time best sellers list. So we're back in 1985 - it's almost the
> end of the AH era - which game do you think heads the list of their
> all-time best sellers ? Is it Squad Leader ? Is it Diplomacy ? Is it
> Third Reich ?
>
> Nope, it's "Outdoor Survival" , followed by "Facts in Five" on the
> number 2 spot. In fact 8 out of the top 20 games are not wargames at
> all. An accountant looking at this would conclude that their hit rate
> with non-wargames was higher than their wargame hit rate ...
>
Sheesh! I never even *heard* of AH games like "Outdoor Survival!"
> Ok, so what were their 3 top selling wargames then ? Surely the ones
> mentioned above ? Again, this is a bit surprising but the top-3
> wargames were Panzerblitz, Panzer Leader and Tactics II - all entry
> level wargames.
>
> Surprising ain't it ?
>
Not really. When I glance at the annual list of top-sellers in PC
games and see titles like "Deer Hunter" or "Barbie Does
'Something-or-Other'" at or near the top of the list, year after year,
the idea that *my* values aren't very popular is reinforced. That's
clearly true in the general category of PC games and I suspect it's
also true in the specific category of wargames. I enjoy huge,
time-consuming strategy games like War In the Pacific and Third Reich,
and experience has taught me that my avid interest in such games is
shared by just a small minority of gamers. Sure, I can also enjoy a
tactical slug fest and even indulge an occasional juvenile
shoot-em-up, but I can spend *years* with games like WitP and not
exhaust their entrancing possibilities. I recognize that not many
people will find 'fun' in that kind of thing.
> Now, the reason AH made this public is probably because gamers like to
> know what other gamers are playing. It influences their buying
> decision as they get confirmation a game for which they've been
> sitting on the fence is a hit. People are more willing to spend money
> on something if they know lots of other people are buying it too. "<X>
> items sold already" remains a powerful marketing slogan.
>
I often find myself taking the opposite tack. If a game is a top
seller, I tend to be skeptical about its value. I'm aware that my
attitude may cause me to overlook some very good games, so I try to
evaluate a game without regard to its popularity. In other words,
popularity alone does not spark my interest but tends to have an
opposite, off-putting effect.
> So, question : do you think it would be a good idea for wargame
> publishers to publish such a top-10 list ? And would it influence your
> buying decision ?
>
It's a good idea, though they might want to hide the actual number of
units sold because such tiny numbers might embarass them!
--
"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or
the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to
their own interest." - Adam Smith >> Stay informed about: Lists |
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Since: May 13, 2005 Posts: 1292
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 1:46 am
Post subject: Re: Lists [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 31 dec 2007, 18:33, Briarroot <Briarr... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> eddyster... DeleteThis @hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > So, question : do you think it would be a good idea for wargame
> > publishers to publish such a top-10 list ? And would it influence your
> > buying decision ?
>
> It's a good idea, though they might want to hide the actual number of
> units sold because such tiny numbers might embarass them!
Avalon Hill didn't give the actual numbers either, just listed the
games in sales order. But there was a minimum of 100K games sold to
get on the All Time List.
For wargames today it might indeed be embarassing to be compared to
those numbers
Greetz,
Eddy Sterckx >> Stay informed about: Lists |
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Since: Nov 08, 2007 Posts: 83
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 8:11 am
Post subject: Re: Lists [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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> Nope, it's "Outdoor Survival" , followed by "Facts in Five" on the
> number 2 spot. In fact 8 out of the top 20 games are not wargames at
> all. An accountant looking at this would conclude that their hit rate
> with non-wargames was higher than their wargame hit rate ...
>
> Ok, so what were their 3 top selling wargames then ? Surely the ones
> mentioned above ? Again, this is a bit surprising but the top-3
> wargames were Panzerblitz, Panzer Leader and Tactics II - all entry
> level wargames.
>
> Surprising ain't it ?
Not really surprising for me, but probably for most. Though "Outdoor
Survival" was 'dual-use'. It was used by quite a few D&D DMs for
outdoor campaigning rules so it had an unexpected second market there.
I think if we released our sales numbers for all games released to
date there would be quite a few surprises there for the average forum
poster. We value our active community members very highly but there
is also most certainly a "silent majority" that doesn't necessarily
share a grognard's list of favorites.
Regards,
- Erik >> Stay informed about: Lists |
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Since: Nov 08, 2007 Posts: 83
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 8:11 am
Post subject: Re: Lists [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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> Maybe Matrix should start offering gift cards.
We've been trying to work this our with DR for three years, actually.
Long story short, it looks possible for 2008. >> Stay informed about: Lists |
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Since: Sep 12, 2004 Posts: 221
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 8:49 pm
Post subject: Re: Lists [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 04:43:01 -0500, Giftzwerg
<giftzwerg999.DeleteThis@NOSPAMZ.hotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <0ed2a890-20ba-43ef-9f9f-e69ecbc3e6f1@
>1g2000hsl.googlegroups.com>, eddysterckx.DeleteThis@hotmail.com says...
>
>> Yesterday, while looking for a particular article in The General I
>> came upon something I had forgotten entirely : Avalon Hill used to
>> publish a list of their top-sellers each year and also a cumulative
>> all-time best sellers list. So we're back in 1985 - it's almost the
>> end of the AH era - which game do you think heads the list of their
>> all-time best sellers ? Is it Squad Leader ? Is it Diplomacy ? Is it
>> Third Reich ?
>>
>> Nope, it's "Outdoor Survival" , followed by "Facts in Five" on the
>> number 2 spot. In fact 8 out of the top 20 games are not wargames at
>> all. An accountant looking at this would conclude that their hit rate
>> with non-wargames was higher than their wargame hit rate ...
>>
>> Ok, so what were their 3 top selling wargames then ? Surely the ones
>> mentioned above ? Again, this is a bit surprising but the top-3
>> wargames were Panzerblitz, Panzer Leader and Tactics II - all entry
>> level wargames.
>>
>> Surprising ain't it ?
>
>Is it? There are always more students in CS101: INTRO TO PROGRAMMING
>than in CS520: COMPILER DESIGN. That's the nature of introductory vs
>advanced materials. If we made a Venn diagram of AH wargame buyers and
>their purchases, THIRD REICH would almost certainly be a small circle
>99% inside a bigger circle representing PANZERBLITZ. I mean, who bought
>TR without already owning PANZERBLITZ?
Heh heh. Too true.
I don't know if I still have my copy of Outdoor Survival or not - it
made a WONDERFUL campaign map for a Dungeons and Dragons campaign I
ran ages ago. Never did buy Tactics II but DID buy SPI's Blitzkrieg
Expansion pack (which was a more sophisticated version of the same
thing) >> Stay informed about: Lists |
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