Karazhan - character prerequisite info

On Sep 5, 5:19 pm, Kimbelyn <kimbe....DeleteThis@thezengarden.net> wrote:
> Catriona R wrote:
> > It's well worth it if you've got good gear that you're planning to keep for
> > a while, but not in greens or not-very-good blues. Yes, it's only 3 sta
> > difference, but consider if you've got 10 sockets... that's 30 sta, 300
> > health more.
>
> while i agree that every little bit helps, i dont agree that for the
> price its worth it. 300 health makes little to know difference when the
> mbos are still hitting you for 2-8k. especially when you consider that
> generally on my server its 1g versus 50g or more for the star. so you're
> talking 10g versus 500g...for 300 health. the money can be used for
> better things and there are easier and cheaper ways to make up 300
> health assuming you really need to. at this stage as a tank, warrior
> anyway, you should be around 18k health or more. more if druid.
>
> kim <3http://www.thezengarden.net/blog

That's just silly. I looked up some of the tanks in your guild, and
without exception, every single one of their gems was a rare or epic
gem. Without exception. Obviously, the tanks in your guild feel very
differently than you do about their gem choices, as they all spent a
pretty penny or a lot of time to gem up their gear.

My take on gems is that, before my epic flight form, I was frugal and
only bought 3g gems. After my epic flight form, I splurged for 10g
gems (typically only greens and yellows) until I got back to 1000g.
These days, I buy raw stones whenever they sell cheaply on the auction
house and have a guild jewelcrafter cut me blue gems for any raid
drop.
--
// T.Hsu
 >> Stay informed about: Karazhan - character prerequisite info 

steve.kaye wrote:
> On 31 Aug, 17:30, Catriona R <catrionarNOS....DeleteThis@totalise.co.uk> wrote:
>> http://pdxgeek.com/Karazhan.htm- great guide there, I linked to it on my
>> guild's forums for folk just gearing up new 70s, and a couple of more
>> experienced players said they liked the look of it too; healer and rogue
>> ones sound spot on to me so I'm very much using the caster dps one as a
>> guide for my lock's gear.
>
> Out of interest, I put my DPS gear on and then my healing gear to see
> how close I'd come with my tanking Druid:
>
> DPS - I easily make it with 3.43 - I fall down by 360 AP but the other
> two stats make up for it
>
> Healing - this one must be wrong because I make it even more easily -
> 3.48 - I only have 594 of the required +Heal and I just miss out on
> the 8000 mana. My mana regen is 192 mp5 - surely it means in combat
> mp5 though - maybe they should specify that because my character sheet
> says that I have a mana regen of 192 mp5 and I can see people
> complaining if they can't get in because they've not gone for mp5 gear
> because of this page.
>
> steve.kaye
>

It's more than possible that the druid stats are off. We currently have
zero druids in karazhan and none of our officers have ever played a druid.

Then again, these guidelines were meant to be easily attainable. We
weren't trying to keep people out of Karazhan--just making sure that it
wasn't their first stop after hitting 70 to gear up.
 >> Stay informed about: Karazhan - character prerequisite info 

On 6 Sep, 16:32, Kimbelyn <kimbe....TakeThisOut@thezengarden.net> wrote:
> Catriona R wrote:
> > What level is this at though is my question? I'm talking Karazhan level,
> > not higher, hence my asking what level 18k is considered normal at.
>
> most of even the pug lvl70 tanks i group with that are in blues/greens
> still with cheap gems have around 15k hp. any tank thats been able to
> pick up a few items in kara should be around there or even higher.
>
> usually when i group with a tank with less they usually are specced
> protection and/or try to tank in dps gear with a 1h/sword.
>
> my feral druid has 12k health/11k armor/390'ish defense and she has only
> one of the clefthoof set pieces. the rest is level 60-68 dps blues which
> are really rogue items for kitty dps.
>
> i'd have to re-iterate what shammy asked. im curious to see the tanks
> you're dealing with.
>
> i do agree to an extent that you should try to get the best of the
> best...but these gems just dont seem worth it when you look at the big
> picture. after kara you're going to be going to ssc generally, and the
> mobs there hit even harder. 300 health doesnt really make or break you
> at this stage, and if you're in ssc then your kara gear is about to be
> replaced yet again. its a never ending thing and i just dont see the point.

You are wrong there. 1 more point of hp can make or break a raid. Ever
fought a mob and be left with 1hp?

If you only have 2k hp and a mob his you for 2k you a dead. If you are
a tank it will probably result in a wipe and cause everyone to 2-8g in
repairs. If you went for the blue gem and instead of the green, you
would of been just over 2k health and lived.

Oh, our tank has 21k fully buffed! IIRC thats how much some of the
later bosses can hit for!
 >> Stay informed about: Karazhan - character prerequisite info 

On Sep 6, 11:32 am, Kimbelyn <kimbe....TakeThisOut@thezengarden.net> wrote:
> most of even the pug lvl70 tanks i group with that are in blues/greens
> still with cheap gems have around 15k hp. any tank thats been able to
> pick up a few items in kara should be around there or even higher.

15k health? In a pug? In blues? I'm calling shenanigans here. My guild
is starting SSC, but as one of four main tanks, I can say that all of
us tanks in the guild hover around 13500-14200 health, unbuffed,
depending upon the situation. And all us tanks need one, maybe two
tanking items, tops, that drops from a place lower than SSC.

Heck, the tanks in your own guild are only 15k health, unbuffed. If
you are seeing that kind of health in a pug, they are either buffed to
the gils, or they are gimping another important stat. Or you got lucky
and an SSC geared tank is in your pug.
--
// T.Hsu
 >> Stay informed about: Karazhan - character prerequisite info 

On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 07:50:28 +0200, "Shammy" <none.RemoveThis@nothing.com> wrote:

>Your tanks are a bit low ? My druid gets up to 19k hp raid buffed.

What level is this at though is my question? I'm talking Karazhan level,
not higher, hence my asking what level 18k is considered normal at.
--
EU-Draenor:
Balgair - Human Rogue (lvl 70)
Naomh - Draenei Priest (lvl 70)
Sealgair - Dwarf Hunter (lvl 70)
Rosad - Human Warlock (lvl 70)
Sagart - Undead Priest (lvl 61)
Sgoildubh - Human Mage (lvl 53)
Beag - Dwarf Paladin (lvl 52)
Cathach - Gnome Warrior (lvl 30)
 >> Stay informed about: Karazhan - character prerequisite info 

Catriona R wrote:
> What level is this at though is my question? I'm talking Karazhan level,
> not higher, hence my asking what level 18k is considered normal at.

most of even the pug lvl70 tanks i group with that are in blues/greens
still with cheap gems have around 15k hp. any tank thats been able to
pick up a few items in kara should be around there or even higher.

usually when i group with a tank with less they usually are specced
protection and/or try to tank in dps gear with a 1h/sword.

my feral druid has 12k health/11k armor/390'ish defense and she has only
one of the clefthoof set pieces. the rest is level 60-68 dps blues which
are really rogue items for kitty dps.

i'd have to re-iterate what shammy asked. im curious to see the tanks
you're dealing with.

i do agree to an extent that you should try to get the best of the
best...but these gems just dont seem worth it when you look at the big
picture. after kara you're going to be going to ssc generally, and the
mobs there hit even harder. 300 health doesnt really make or break you
at this stage, and if you're in ssc then your kara gear is about to be
replaced yet again. its a never ending thing and i just dont see the point.

although im a bit of a hypocrite here, as my t4 helm piece dropped a
couple weeks ago and i picked it up. i promptly spent 90g for the head
healing enchant and then another 100g for a meta gem for it. though i
spent that for the meta gem only because there were none others and
nothing else i could put there. so i spent 190g on a helm that is soon
to be replaced since ssc is on farm and all but kael is on farm in tk.

though it is nice to have a single set piece with 165 +heal on it. lol

kim <3
http://www.thezengarden.net/blog
 >> Stay informed about: Karazhan - character prerequisite info 

Catriona R wrote:
> On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 07:50:28 +0200, "Shammy" <none.DeleteThis@nothing.com> wrote:
>
>> Your tanks are a bit low ? My druid gets up to 19k hp raid buffed.
>
> What level is this at though is my question? I'm talking Karazhan level,
> not higher, hence my asking what level 18k is considered normal at.

Do people venture in there at anything other than 70?
 >> Stay informed about: Karazhan - character prerequisite info 

On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 15:36:06 GMT, Tixover <tixover.RemoveThis@no.mail.thanks> wrote:

>Catriona R wrote:
>> On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 07:50:28 +0200, "Shammy" <none.RemoveThis@nothing.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Your tanks are a bit low ? My druid gets up to 19k hp raid buffed.
>>
>> What level is this at though is my question? I'm talking Karazhan level,
>> not higher, hence my asking what level 18k is considered normal at.
>
>Do people venture in there at anything other than 70?

I'm talking level of raiding ofc...
--
EU-Draenor:
Balgair - Human Rogue (lvl 70)
Naomh - Draenei Priest (lvl 70)
Sealgair - Dwarf Hunter (lvl 70)
Rosad - Human Warlock (lvl 70)
Sagart - Undead Priest (lvl 61)
Sgoildubh - Human Mage (lvl 53)
Beag - Dwarf Paladin (lvl 52)
Cathach - Gnome Warrior (lvl 30)
 >> Stay informed about: Karazhan - character prerequisite info 

On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 11:32:30 -0400, Kimbelyn <kimbelyn RemoveThis @thezengarden.net>
wrote:

>Catriona R wrote:
>> What level is this at though is my question? I'm talking Karazhan level,
>> not higher, hence my asking what level 18k is considered normal at.
>
>most of even the pug lvl70 tanks i group with that are in blues/greens
>still with cheap gems have around 15k hp. any tank thats been able to
>pick up a few items in kara should be around there or even higher.

Weird, cause the prot tanks I work with in blues/purples have 14-15k. Ok,
it's usually pallies and they have naturally lower health but the warriors
are no higher. I've *never* seen 18k+, 16k is beyond what I've seen tbh, I
assumed that high health was only for the very high end raids.

>usually when i group with a tank with less they usually are specced
>protection and/or try to tank in dps gear with a 1h/sword.

Prot warrior in prot gear = 14k in my experience, never over 16k :-/

>i'd have to re-iterate what shammy asked. im curious to see the tanks
>you're dealing with.

Well I assumed it was normal, given that it's several different tanks. How
on earth does any tank get that high health without gimping every other
stat, or having really high end epics? No way it's possible at Kara lvl
from what I've seen, hence my asking what level of raiding you're talking
about where 18k is *normal*...

>i do agree to an extent that you should try to get the best of the
>best...but these gems just dont seem worth it when you look at the big
>picture. after kara you're going to be going to ssc generally, and the
>mobs there hit even harder. 300 health doesnt really make or break you
>at this stage, and if you're in ssc then your kara gear is about to be
>replaced yet again. its a never ending thing and i just dont see the point.

Not everyone is gonna progress to SSC though. I'm not, Kara is my endgame,
and that applies to more people than will ever see 25-man content imo.

>although im a bit of a hypocrite here, as my t4 helm piece dropped a
>couple weeks ago and i picked it up. i promptly spent 90g for the head
>healing enchant and then another 100g for a meta gem for it. though i
>spent that for the meta gem only because there were none others and
>nothing else i could put there. so i spent 190g on a helm that is soon
>to be replaced since ssc is on farm and all but kael is on farm in tk.
>
>though it is nice to have a single set piece with 165 +heal on it. lol

Lol I didn't even question spending money on enchanting/gemming my T4 helm;
I'll never have any better until WotLK
--
EU-Draenor:
Balgair - Human Rogue (lvl 70)
Naomh - Draenei Priest (lvl 70)
Sealgair - Dwarf Hunter (lvl 70)
Rosad - Human Warlock (lvl 70)
Sagart - Undead Priest (lvl 61)
Sgoildubh - Human Mage (lvl 53)
Beag - Dwarf Paladin (lvl 52)
Cathach - Gnome Warrior (lvl 30)
 >> Stay informed about: Karazhan - character prerequisite info 

On 6 Sep, 17:05, CM <n... DeleteThis @no.way> wrote:
> steve.kaye wrote:
> > On 31 Aug, 17:30, Catriona R <catrionarNOS... DeleteThis @totalise.co.uk> wrote:
> >>http://pdxgeek.com/Karazhan.htm-great guide there, I linked to it on my
> >> guild's forums for folk just gearing up new 70s, and a couple of more
> >> experienced players said they liked the look of it too; healer and rogue
> >> ones sound spot on to me so I'm very much using the caster dps one as a
> >> guide for my lock's gear.
>
> > Out of interest, I put my DPS gear on and then my healing gear to see
> > how close I'd come with my tanking Druid:
>
> > DPS - I easily make it with 3.43 - I fall down by 360 AP but the other
> > two stats make up for it
>
> > Healing - this one must be wrong because I make it even more easily -
> > 3.48 - I only have 594 of the required +Heal and I just miss out on
> > the 8000 mana. My mana regen is 192 mp5 - surely it means in combat
> > mp5 though - maybe they should specify that because my character sheet
> > says that I have a mana regen of 192 mp5 and I can see people
> > complaining if they can't get in because they've not gone for mp5 gear
> > because of this page.
>
> It's more than possible that the druid stats are off. We currently have
> zero druids in karazhan and none of our officers have ever played a druid.
>
> Then again, these guidelines were meant to be easily attainable. We
> weren't trying to keep people out of Karazhan--just making sure that it
> wasn't their first stop after hitting 70 to gear up.

Ah, ok. Then I'm afraid that you made it a little too easy for Druid
healers and probably too easy for the DPSers too.

All through my levelling I chose DPS first, then Tank and then finally
Healing gear. When I got to 70 I changed direction from DPS to
Tanking and so I spent money on my tanking gear in an effort to be
able to tank heroics. As it stands, I can easily get in with just
quest rewards for a DPS spot and I can easily get in with second rate
quest rewards for a healing spot.

Obviously, as I am a tank and have never raided I'm afraid that I have
no suggestions as to improvements.

steve.kaye
 >> Stay informed about: Karazhan - character prerequisite info 

On Sep 6, 2:30 pm, Kimbelyn <kimbe... DeleteThis @thezengarden.net> wrote:
> http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Stormrage&n=Beatin
>
> ...is one of our paladin tanks/offhealer depending on fight. if he wears
> pure tank gear he is right aroudn 16k health, in hybrid gear which is
> what i believe he is in currently, you can see he's 14.3k.
> actually...he's our only paly tank to be honest. lol

I'm going to pick you apart here, to show you what you got wrong.

This guy Beatin is wearing 509 defense, which means he's in full
tanking gear, as 495 defense is minimum for a warrior/paladin to be
uncrittable. If he were in farming gear, his defense would drop way
below this. In particular, he would be wearing different rings,
different trinkets, and a different necklace. But his jewelery is pure
tanking gear.

Additionally, I calculated his total avoidance with holy shield as
being 104.09%. You need 102.8% to be uncrushable as a paladin. Which
means if he removed even one or two pieces of gear, he's crushable,
because he's so close to the line. Which means even more that he's in
full tanking gear.

The reason you think he's in hybrid gear is because he has spell
damage on him. However, that's how a pally tank generates threat -
with spells. Which is why their tier tanking set has spell damage on
it, and it's why he tanks with a spell damage sword.

As for his health, he may have 14.3k, but he's buffed with mark of the
wild, fortitude, and food, meaning he has 1230 health from buffs.
Which means his unbuffed health, in tanking gear, is almost exactly
13k.

I looked at your warrior, and it was a similar story. He's actually
wearing his full tanking gear, even though you obviously don't believe
it. He's in 525 defense, with a high block rate, plus every single
item he's wearing has a +block, +defense, +dodge rating on it, which
means he's in full tanking gear. His 15.7k health includes fortitude
and mark of the wild buffs, which gives him 14800 health, unbuffed.

I didn't look at your druid, because your druid logged out in his cat
gear. But I'm willing to bet that his story is similar. I think you
should ask him what his *unbuffed* health is in his tanking gear. I
think the numbers will surprise you.

I believe you have mistaken your tanks raid buffed health pool as
their unbuffed health, or that you don't realize just how big of a
bonus the buffs are, and didn't discount the buffs enough. When I'm
tanking, shout + fortitude + imp + mark + flask + food + kings + heart
of the wild bonus adds 6k to 7k health to my pool, depending upon
who's doing the buffing. The raid buff bonus is *that* big.

And I found your tanks by looking at your blog, which links your
characters, which links your guild, which I looked up on wowjutsu to
figure out who where your tanks.
--
// T.Hsu
 >> Stay informed about: Karazhan - character prerequisite info 

ting.RemoveThis@thsu.org wrote:
> That's just silly. I looked up some of the tanks in your guild, and
> without exception, every single one of their gems was a rare or epic
> gem. Without exception. Obviously, the tanks in your guild feel very
> differently than you do about their gem choices, as they all spent a
> pretty penny or a lot of time to gem up their gear.
> --
> // T.Hsu
>

not sure what guild you looked up as i dont recall listing my guild
since i made my paly my main. but its synergy on stormrage us.

....but yes, they have all spent a lot of money on enchants and gems and
its understandable. we farm kara/mag/gruul on alts and farm ssc/tk (up
to kael) on our mains. i was speaking purely from a kara point of view.
if you're running kara chances are you will be heading out to later
raids in the near future. in which case spending 500g on gems only to
have to do it again in a couple weeks is not very smart. unless of
course, you already have your epic flyer and thousands of gold left over
that you can blow on a whim.

i checked last night too, and the +12 stams are now going for 85 on our
server. so using the original statement about 10 slots...you're talking
850g to gem it out. again, thats WAY to much money to spend on kara
gear...epic or not assuming you're planning progression past kara in any
way.

if, however, you're running kara, and only planning to run kara, i dont
see any problem with buying the best gems/enchants you can afford.

in ssc/tk, that 300 health is indeed needed. in fact just last week in
tk we had a tank get a quick two shot and was left at 325 health by the
time he reacted and was able to hit last stand. sure he would have lived
either way, as the *trash* there hits for 8k and their aoe's are around
2500-3000 or more...but it did give him at least enough breathing room
to hit last stand right before the heals hit.

kim <3
http://www.thezengarden.net/blog
 >> Stay informed about: Karazhan - character prerequisite info 

On Sep 4, 2:59 pm, Yeechang Lee <y....RemoveThis@pobox.com> wrote:
> steve.kaye wrote:
> > p.s. I find it *really* hard to justify buying, for example, a rare
> > gem that gives 8 agility when I can get 6 agility for 1/10th of the
> > price. Maybe I'll do it on purples but I want to get money for my
> > epic flight form at some point and I've been stuck at around 1000g for
> > a while now with my gearing up and stuff.
>
> I'm exactly the same way. For my Paladin tank, everyone recommends I
> go for the Solid Star of Elune, but there's no way I'm going to pay
> 50g+ for 12 STA when I can get 9 STA for 1g.

You have rolled the most expensive tanking class in the game. Of all
three tanks, Paladins require thee most help from gear, gems and
enchants. Solid Stars are expensive because they are awesome and
practically a requirement for stamina socketing. +300 extra health
might not be a big deal at first glance, but consider what the buff
enchancements will do to it.

In order to do well as a Tankadin, you are going to have to spend a
lot of gold. If you're not ready to do this, you might as well be a
Healadin (no, this isn't a "learn2play" comment, just the truth coming
from a Kara Tankadin who would not want to go back in time to a few
weeks ago when they were struggling to get what they need to be good
at their role).
 >> Stay informed about: Karazhan - character prerequisite info