[Hero 5th] Army Sniper Skills?

>meters. Buying skill levels with a specific rifle (currently the M24
>Sniper Weapon System) along with a good DEX and general skill levels
>in Gun.

Specific levels versus Range penalties might be an idea.
 >> Stay informed about: [Hero 5th] Army Sniper Skills? 

On 23 Jul 2004 11:11:45 -0700, lewis DeleteThis @lwb.org (Lewis W Beard) wrote:

>So, assuming Army does have Snipers, what skills would someone in the
>Army (or whichever service is appropriate if the Army doesn't have
>Snipers) have, in Hero 5th Edition terms? What skills would they have
>as a Sniper?

Doug's answer was very good, especially from the military side, but
let me add a bit more from the gaming side. A certain amount will
depend on which supplements you are using (if any).

From the Hero 5th Edition Rules you can take the general items like
skill levels with your gun, both standard skill levels and penalty
skill levels (the latter to offset penalties for long range shooting).
Stealth and Concealment to be unobserved. To be able to reach your
desired position outdoors you might find swimming and climbing would
be useful. In an urban environment lockpicking and security systems
might serve the same purpose - roof access might be locked, or you
might need to break into an apartment or office to find the perfect
location. You might want to consider a few exotic Transport
Familiarities. For example, once your sniper takes the shot from the
roof he might want a quick exit - so he dives off the far side using a
parachute or hang glider. This is very attention-getting, but the
people who see that won't know about the assassination on the far side
of the building. Lots of people would be able to provide descriptions
of the person. One would then perhaps get into a car for a daring
getaway - combat driving would be helpful. Again, not as realistic
but a lot of fun in a gaming situation, a James Bond style thing that
would tend to be, um, impractical in most real life situations. A
stealthy exit is more realistic but not as much fun. Anyway, if you
are just using the rifle stats from Hero you won't find the M24 listed
but they have an SVD Dragunov Sniper Rifle. Gaming rules allow you to
buy Invisible Power Effects (sound), so you can have a silencer for
extra points without affecting range or stopping power. You can also
buy special sights (lasers, nightscopes, etc.) to help accuracy.

The Ultimate Martial Artist supplement contains (under fictional
styles) a martial art called Zen Riflery. Parts are for general
mayhem with a gun, but many parts would be quite suited for a sniper
in particular. Distance Shot, Deadly Accuracy, Ranged Disarm and so
on.

Doug mentioned that in real life the sniper is also used as a scout.
In many games these characters have been Special Forces (Green Berets,
SEALS, etc.) who happen to have extra skills as a sniper. It can be
lots of fun to blow things up in games, so Demolitions is a good
choice. They'll have good hand to hand combat skills, tracking, extra
swimming, strength, endurance, combat piloting and driving with lots
of transport familiarities. In other games snipers might be James
Bond characters with Disguise, Conversation, Seduction, Bribery and so
on in addition. A pure sniper is pretty rare in games because games
are not nearly so limited as real life.
 >> Stay informed about: [Hero 5th] Army Sniper Skills? 

Douglas Berry wrote:

> Psychologically speaking, we tend to be borderline sociopaths. It
> takes a special type of person to not only look through a scope at a
> living human and squeeze the trigger, but be able to do it over and
> over. Snipers suffer from PTSD in amazing numbers.

A book recommended by others: _Jarhead_ by Andrew (Anthony ?) Swofford.


Robert Huff
 >> Stay informed about: [Hero 5th] Army Sniper Skills? 

>>meters. Buying skill levels with a specific rifle (currently the M24
>>Sniper Weapon System) along with a good DEX and general skill levels
>>in Gun.

Myrnag2555 wrote:
> Specific levels versus Range penalties might be an idea.

Yes, very much so. I'm not sure the ideal way to represent a
top-notch sniper is by giving him a very high attack-weapon
skill. In fact I've thought, recently, about adding a special
"Sniping" (binary) skill in my homebrew system, which gives a
to-hit bonus only in sniping situations. That way, a character
can be a sniper without being a crack shot in other situations,
i.e. those that RPG characters tend to end up in: short-range
fire fights.

This opens up for two *different* combat character types. One
with a very high weapon-attack skill, representing someone
trained as a regular soldier, maybe even given special
close-quarters-battle training. And the other trained as a
sniper. They'll excel in *different* types of situations.

--
Peter Knutsen
knutsen.dk
 >> Stay informed about: [Hero 5th] Army Sniper Skills? 

Peter Knutsen wrote:
>
>>> meters. Buying skill levels with a specific rifle (currently the M24
>>> Sniper Weapon System) along with a good DEX and general skill levels
>>> in Gun.
>>
>
> Myrnag2555 wrote:
>
>> Specific levels versus Range penalties might be an idea.
>
>
> Yes, very much so. I'm not sure the ideal way to represent a top-notch
> sniper is by giving him a very high attack-weapon skill. In fact I've
> thought, recently, about adding a special "Sniping" (binary) skill in my
> homebrew system, which gives a to-hit bonus only in sniping situations.
> That way, a character can be a sniper without being a crack shot in
> other situations, i.e. those that RPG characters tend to end up in:
> short-range fire fights.
>


This could be represented with Skill Levels that have the Limitation
"Only When Braced and Set(-1)".
Bracing gives you +2 vs. Range while halving your DCV. Setting gives you
+1 OCV but requires a full Phase of aiming.
The additional levels could make Bracing and Setting even more accurate.
And they could be bought with Extra Time if you have to really take your
time aiming.

--
Michael Sears armitage.RemoveThis@mhcable.com
"No turning back where the end is in sight.
There's a job to be done, a fight to be won."



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 >> Stay informed about: [Hero 5th] Army Sniper Skills? 

Douglas Berry wrote:
[...]
> Secondly, snipers are very stealthy. We have to crawl around behind
> enemy lines to get into position, and then get out after making our
> shots. Stealth, and skills related to camouflage are a must.
[...]

I just perused the skill list in FRED, briefly, to prepare to
answer the original poster, and found that in Hero, the skill
used for camouflage is Concealment.

But what about Climbing? Isn't that useful too?


Hero doesn't have any skills to reflect terrain familiarity (an
oversight - they are *very* useful in my homebrew system), but
the Survival skill can be used instead (in fact it is possible
that many groups use the skill like that). At the very least, it
can guarantee that the character won't set up his sniping
position among stinging plants (a reasonable GM wouldn't even
require a skill roll for this - he's just note that the
character has Survival (Jungle), and hence rule that the
character has a 0.0000% probability of such an embarassing mishap).

For a more advanced player, a successful roll for the Survival
skill might give the character a bonus to his Concealment or
Stealth skill roll (Hero has standard rules for how you can use
one skill to boost another skill).

Survival can also be useful in the way it was originally
conceived by game designers, decades ago: A lone character (or
group of characters), supporting himself in the wilderness.
There are persistent rumours about (at least) one Japanese
soldier who lived for decades on a Pacific island, not realizing
that World War II has ended. The Survival skill can be used to
find food and water, to find or build shelters, and to avoid
wilderness risks (predators, poisonous animals and plants,
avoidable weather and geological hazards), in the specified
terrain type(s).

--
Peter Knutsen
knutsen.dk
 >> Stay informed about: [Hero 5th] Army Sniper Skills? 

In our last thrilling episode, Peter Knutsen <peter.DeleteThis@knutsen.invalid>
was pushed over the cliffs of rec.games.frp.super-heroes on Sat, 24
Jul 2004 05:50:54 +0200 by Zoog, minion of Zathar. As he fell, he
screamed:

>I just perused the skill list in FRED, briefly, to prepare to
>answer the original poster, and found that in Hero, the skill
>used for camouflage is Concealment.
>
>But what about Climbing? Isn't that useful too?

That should come with military training, but not at a really high
level.

A brief digression.. snipers and trees. Movies always show the sniper
firing from some high branch and getting waxed when the entire platoon
returns fire. This is exactly *why* we don't climb trees. Trees are
deathtraps. I'd rather find a good spot under a bush, in a ruined
building, or inside a dead cow (buy me a beer sometime and I'll tell
you the story.) Shooting a downward angle is much harder than firing
on the flat.
--

Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
 >> Stay informed about: [Hero 5th] Army Sniper Skills? 

In article <2me4l4Fm6g1nU1.RemoveThis@uni-berlin.de>,
Peter Knutsen <peter.RemoveThis@knutsen.invalid> wrote:

> Hero doesn't have any skills to reflect terrain familiarity (an
> oversight - they are *very* useful in my homebrew system), but
> the Survival skill can be used instead (in fact it is possible
> that many groups use the skill like that).

Hero does have "Area Knowledge" and "Knowledge Skill: Specific Terrain
Type". Either of those could reflect a character's familiarity with
terrain.

--
Joe Claffey | "Make no small plans."
indianajoe3.RemoveThis@comcast.net | -- Daniel Burnham
 >> Stay informed about: [Hero 5th] Army Sniper Skills? 

Douglas Berry wrote:
> In our last thrilling episode, Peter Knutsen <peter RemoveThis @knutsen.invalid>
> was pushed over the cliffs of rec.games.frp.super-heroes on Sat, 24
> Jul 2004 05:50:54 +0200 by Zoog, minion of Zathar. As he fell, he
> screamed:
>>But what about Climbing? Isn't that useful too?
>
> That should come with military training, but not at a really high
> level.
>
> A brief digression.. snipers and trees. Movies always show the sniper
> firing from some high branch and getting waxed when the entire platoon

I don't think I've ever seen such a movie. I was thinking
cliffs, rock-faces and similar. Get from place to place. Get to
a high, concealed position.

> returns fire. This is exactly *why* we don't climb trees. Trees are

How can the entire platoon return fire, when they are equipped
with shoddy assault rifles, whereas sniper has a super-expensive
precision rifle? And is, of course, remembering that his sniping
instructor told him to only engage the enemy at long range...

> deathtraps. I'd rather find a good spot under a bush, in a ruined
> building, or inside a dead cow (buy me a beer sometime and I'll tell
> you the story.) Shooting a downward angle is much harder than firing
> on the flat.

I didn't know about the angle thing.

--
Peter Knutsen
knutsen.dk
 >> Stay informed about: [Hero 5th] Army Sniper Skills? 

"Peter Knutsen" <peter.RemoveThis@knutsen.invalid> wrote in message
news:2mej0hFmd69lU1@uni-berlin.de...
>
> Douglas Berry wrote:
> > A brief digression.. snipers and trees. Movies always show the sniper
> > firing from some high branch and getting waxed when the entire platoon
>
> I don't think I've ever seen such a movie.

I've seen several (none memorable enough for me to know the names of). It's
always the "bad guys" who open fire from the tree tops on the heroic jungle
patrol -- "our boys" are never so stupid.

> How can the entire platoon return fire, when they are equipped
> with shoddy assault rifles, whereas sniper has a super-expensive
> precision rifle? And is, of course, remembering that his sniping
> instructor told him to only engage the enemy at long range...

The presence of trees implies that long-range sighting of your would be
problematic.

Which brings up the question of how you define "sniper" anyway. Must it be a
long-range shooter with a fancy scope? In the war moves, a VC soldier hidden
20 yards away in the jungle is still referred to as a "sniper" by his
intended victims. It seems to be the element of concealment and surprise
that defines the term. (Besides which, the enemy snipers are always rotten
shots -- unless there is a token character they can safely kill).

But that's just movies...


--
David Meadows
"Hiding out on a pig farm saved my life." -- Don, Heroes #18
www.heroes.force9.co.uk/scripts
A comic book -- without the pictures
 >> Stay informed about: [Hero 5th] Army Sniper Skills? 

In article <410238d2$0$63386$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net>,
David Meadows <david.TakeThisOut@no.spam.here.uk> wrote:
>"Peter Knutsen" <peter.TakeThisOut@knutsen.invalid> wrote in message
>news:2mej0hFmd69lU1@uni-berlin.de...
>>
>> Douglas Berry wrote:
>> > A brief digression.. snipers and trees. Movies always show the sniper
>> > firing from some high branch and getting waxed when the entire platoon
>>
>> I don't think I've ever seen such a movie.
>
>I've seen several (none memorable enough for me to know the names of). It's
>always the "bad guys" who open fire from the tree tops on the heroic jungle
>patrol -- "our boys" are never so stupid.
>
What do the snipers think of the tactics used in _Enemy at the
Gate_?

James Nicoll


--
Take the piston rings out of my stomach, And the cylinders out of my brain
Extract from my liver the crankshaft, And assemble the engine again!

[from 'The Dying Aviator']
 >> Stay informed about: [Hero 5th] Army Sniper Skills? 

Douglas,

> Oddly enough, I'm an ex-Army sniper. Even served as an instructor at
> the United States Army Sniper School at Fort Benning, Ga.

Thanks for the excellent reply! Very helpful, much obliged. Thanks to
everyone else for answers also.

BTW, this will be for a Super-Heroic game, but unlike many
Super-Heroic games where skills are secondary to powers, we like all
our characters to have all their skills fleshed out as would be
appropriate. So, the character will likely find his former training
very useful (in whatever limited ways the player and I can apply them,
not having any military experience).

Anyway thanks!

> Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5

Atheist #1362 here! Well met!

Lewis
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"James Nicoll" <jdnicoll.RemoveThis@panix.com> wrote in message
news:cdtqod$cgm$1@panix1.panix.com...
> In article <410238d2$0$63386$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net>,
> David Meadows <david.RemoveThis@no.spam.here.uk> wrote:
> >"Peter Knutsen" <peter.RemoveThis@knutsen.invalid> wrote in message
> >news:2mej0hFmd69lU1@uni-berlin.de...
> >>
<snip>
> >
> What do the snipers think of the tactics used in _Enemy at the
> Gate_?
>
> James Nicoll
>
>
> --
> Take the piston rings out of my stomach, And the cylinders out of my brain
> Extract from my liver the crankshaft, And assemble the engine again!
>
> [from 'The Dying Aviator']

I thought the movie was, in general, a realistic depiction of events and
tactics. One sore point though was the scene where one sniper gave
himself away to the other by a reflection off his telescopic sight. (I
*think*
it was the German.) I thought that that effect was well-known at the time.
As such, I had really expected that he would have a) exfiltrated and
infiltrated to a new position or b) have improvised a sun hood extension
for the sight to prevent it or c) exfiltrated and tried again another
morning.
(IIRC, it was the afternoon sun that gave him away.)
 >> Stay informed about: [Hero 5th] Army Sniper Skills?