Hard to Subdue, High Pain Threshold, major wounds and unco..

Ben Finney <bignose+hates-spam@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
> bcd.DeleteThis@pvv.ntnu.no (Bent C Dalager) writes:
>
>> Assume that Tor the warrior has the following traits (among others):
>>
>> HT 12
>> Hard to Subdue 2
>> High Pain Threshold
>
> Hard to Subdue, p. B59: "Each level of Hard to Subdue gives +1 to any
> HT roll to avoid unconsciousness ? whether as a result of injury,
> drugs, or ultra-tech weapons ? and to resist supernatural abilities
> that cause unconsciousness."
>
> High Pain Threshold, p. B59: "You *never* suffer a shock penalty when
> you are injured. In addition, you get +3 on all HT rolls to avoid
> knockdown and stunning ?"
>
>> Tor now takes a major wound to the groin. He gets to roll against HT
>> at -5 to avoid knockdown/stun.
>
> Knockdown and Stunning, p. B420. Receiving a major wound requires a HT
> roll. Modifiers:
>
> Major wound to the groin for a human male: -5
> High Pain Threshold: +3
>
> Is this a "HT roll to avoid unconsciousness"? The rules on p. B420 say
> it's a HT roll, and give a result of unconsciousness on a critical
> failure or any failure by 5 or more, so I'd say so. Thus:

But normal failure doesn't result in unconciousness. The roll is to avoid
knockdown/stun.

> Hard to Subdue 2: +2
>
> Total modifiers: -5 +3 +2 = +0
>
> So Tor must roll against HT+0 = 12 for this wound.

But are HPT and Hard To Subdue supposed to be this cummulative?
I admit, if you count them seperately it gets a lot trickier to
figure out the correct numbers:

stun/knockdown: -5+3=-2
unconciousness: -5+2+5=+2

So if they're not cummulative, Tor would have to roll 10 or lower
to stay on his feet, and 14 or lower to stay concious.

It all depends on whether you want to keep the math easy and allow
Hard To Subdue to help against stun and HPT to help against
unconciousness, just because those happen to be handled by a single
roll.


mcv.
--
Science is not the be-all and end-all of human existence. It's a tool.
A very powerful tool, but not the only tool. And if only that which
could be verified scientifically was considered real, then nearly all
of human experience would be not-real. -- Zachriel
 >> Stay informed about: Hard to Subdue, High Pain Threshold, major wounds and unco.. 

mcv wrote:
> But are HPT and Hard To Subdue supposed to be this cummulative?
> I admit, if you count them seperately it gets a lot trickier to
> figure out the correct numbers:
>
> stun/knockdown: -5+3=-2
> unconciousness: -5+2+5=+2
>
> So if they're not cummulative, Tor would have to roll 10 or lower
> to stay on his feet, and 14 or lower to stay concious.

I have to go with this one as "official." Going from "resistance
rolls" in the glossary to resisted rolls vs. magic on BASIC page
241 suggests that modifiers only apply to their particular
affect. You don't apply all the modifiers involved to a single
die roll.

> It all depends on whether you want to keep the math easy and allow
> Hard To Subdue to help against stun and HPT to help against
> unconciousness, just because those happen to be handled by a single
> roll.

Which is the problem and I'd have no issue with houseruling it
that way.

--
Jefferson
http://www.meanspc.com/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
 >> Stay informed about: Hard to Subdue, High Pain Threshold, major wounds and unco.. 

mcv <mcvmcv DeleteThis @xs4all.nl> writes:

> Ben Finney <bignose+hates-spam@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
> > Is [the roll required when receiving a major wound] a "HT roll to
> > avoid unconsciousness"? The rules on p. B420 say it's a HT roll,
> > and give a result of unconsciousness on a critical failure or any
> > failure by 5 or more, so I'd say so. Thus:
>
> But normal failure doesn't result in unconciousness. The roll is to
> avoid knockdown/stun.

So you and I have differing interpretations of the rules, based on how
they're worded.

> It all depends on whether you want to keep the math easy

As far as the official interpretation of the rules, I'd say it all
depends on what the authorities say; I don't know if they've ever
clarified this before.

In the meantime, of course, GMs are free to interpret as they
choose. But your interpretation and mine both seem to follow from the
wording of the rules, and are unfortunately incompatible.

--
\ "The right to use [strong cryptography] is the right to speak |
`\ Navajo." -- Eben Moglen |
_o__) |
Ben Finney
 >> Stay informed about: Hard to Subdue, High Pain Threshold, major wounds and unco.. 

In article <87mytwcm7i.fsf.DeleteThis@benfinney.id.au>,
Ben Finney <bignose+hates-spam@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
>mcv <mcvmcv.DeleteThis@xs4all.nl> writes:
>
> (...)

Thanks to you both for your input. At least I now know that it /is/ a
difficult issue to settle

The consensus does seem to be that Hard to Subdue /should/ have some
beneficial effect in the situation described, and that the controversy
concerns how exactly to make that happen.


I do have a similar query also:

Assume that Karl the warrior has (amongst others):

HT 12
Hard to Subdue 1
Hard to Kill 2

Now, Karl is at -HP and needs to roll vs HT to stay alive. He rolls
against 12 + 2 for Hard to Kill = 14. However, if he rolls 13 or 14
(within the Hard to Kill region), he should fall unconscious,
apparantly dead to any onlookers that don't care to do a Diagnosis
roll on him. (See Hard to Kill, B58.)

Should Hard to Subdue help him against unconsciousness in this case?
If so, does it become:
Roll 12 or below to succeed and remain standing
Roll 13 to "fail", have Hard to Kill rescue you from death /and/
have Hard to Subdue rescue you from unconsciousness
Roll 14 to "fail", have Hard to Kill rescue you from death, but become
unconscious
Roll 15 or more to die
(in practice, 12 and 13 above would be indistinguishable in actual effect)

Also, if the above is correct, would having Hard to Subdue 2 or better
in this case mean that you would never fall unconscious due to failing
a HT roll within the Hard to Kill bonus range?

Cheers,
Bent D
--
Bent Dalager - bcd.DeleteThis@pvv.org - http://www.pvv.org/~bcd
powered by emacs
 >> Stay informed about: Hard to Subdue, High Pain Threshold, major wounds and unco.. 

bcd.TakeThisOut@pvv.ntnu.no (Bent C Dalager) writes:

> Now, Karl is at -HP and needs to roll vs HT to stay alive. He rolls
> against 12 + 2 for Hard to Kill = 14. However, if he rolls 13 or 14
> (within the Hard to Kill region), he should fall unconscious,
> apparantly dead to any onlookers that don't care to do a Diagnosis
> roll on him. (See Hard to Kill, B58.)
>
> Should Hard to Subdue help him against unconsciousness in this case?

I would expect the answer should be consistent with the answer to your
previous question. If Hard to Subdue gives a bonus to one of those
situations, it should give a bonus to both.

--
\ "No one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the |
`\ American public." -- Henry L. Mencken |
_o__) |
Ben Finney
 >> Stay informed about: Hard to Subdue, High Pain Threshold, major wounds and unco..