On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 04:16:58 +0100, Acridian9 <manfredi.DeleteThis@mail.dm.unipi.it> wrote:
>I play Delay (Counter target spell. If the spell is countered this way,
remove it from the game with three time counters on it instead of putting it
into its owner's graveyard. If it doesn't have suspend, it gains suspend. )
targeting a spell while Guile is in play (If a spell or ability you control
would counter a spell, instead remove that spell from the game and you may
play that card without paying its mana cost.).
(450-character-long lines _bad_. Napster BAD!)
>Does the self-replacement effect of Delay ever apply?
419.6d says to apply self-replacements before applying any other replacement
effects. So yes, it does. Note that this self-replacement does NOT replace
the countering itself, but replaces the 'put it into owner's graveyard' piece
of countering it; the spell still got countered, so Guile's replacement can
still apply.
Which means that the card does NOT end up with time counters on it at all ...
since you apply all replacement effects BEFORE doing the actual action,
whatever that ends up being, and since Guile's replacement -does- replace the
entire countering, making Delay's self-replacement meaningless since you're
no longer putting it into owner's graveyard at all.
>Does the clause 'If the spell is countered this way' make the self-replacement
>effect applicable only if the action *actually* occurred (i.e. not prevented)?
That's there to deal with "This spell can't be countered" interactions,
where you were _told_ to counter it but couldn't. (Note that 419.5b covers
"_you may_ do X. If you do, ...", and Delay isn't one of these; its countering
isn't optional.) As long as only Delay is involved, the countering either
happens or doesn't ... and if it does, _part_ of it gets replaced. It's when
other replacement effects get involved that the countering might get changed
into something else entirely, in which case the 'if it was countered this way'
no longer even applies.
>A lot of people say that both repalcement effects apply to the same event:
'counter the spell' and so the one from Delay is applyed first since it is a
self-replacement effect.
Yes ... but the other key bit here is that Delay doesn't change the countering
into some OTHER action - it still counters the spell, it just sends it
somewhere else with alterations. That allows another "If that would be
countered" replacement effect to still apply once Delay's self-replacement
applies. (Contrast with, say, Abundance, whose replacement changes 'draw a
card' into something that's not 'draw a card' at all.)
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd.DeleteThis@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
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