Now in German | NetHack auf deutsch

Tony Crawford wrote:
>
>Hi gang!
>
>A long time in the works, and still not finished of course, but playable:
>
>We call it NetzHack (note the 'z'), the German translation of NetHack
>3.4.3.
>
>See http://www.netzhack.de/
>
>Tony

Are you in any contact at all with the people behind
http://nethack-de.sourceforge.net/ ? Having two German NetHacks seems a
needless waste of effort.

--
--------------===============<[ Ray Chason ]>===============--------------
The War on Terra is not meant to be won.
Delendae sunt RIAA, MPAA et Windoze
 >> Stay informed about: Now in German | NetHack auf deutsch 

On 2008-01-21, Janis wrote:
> On 21 Jan., 13:23, "Tony Crawford" <t... DeleteThis @kuerbis.dnsalias.net> wrote:
>> A long time in the works, and still not finished of course, but playable:
>>
>> We call it NetzHack (note the 'z'), the German translation of NetHack  
>> 3.4.3.
>
> I'd be interested to know about how you've implemented the grammer
> part,

Not ideally, it seems...
from the Screenshot on www.netzhack.de:

"Die Flammen von deinen Kerzen werden schwach"

.... is a bad form of the genitivus. Also, why are there only windows binaries
and no sources for download?

--
Ohle Claussen | GPG-Key-ID E7149169
----------===========----------
"Quotas are bad for America. It's not the way America is all about."
--dubya
 >> Stay informed about: Now in German | NetHack auf deutsch 

Ohle Claussen wrote:
>
>Also, why are there only windows binaries
>and no sources for download?

http://www.netzhack.de/download/netzhack-0.1.0.tgz is a source tarball.

--
--------------===============<[ Ray Chason ]>===============--------------
The War on Terra is not meant to be won.
Delendae sunt RIAA, MPAA et Windoze
 >> Stay informed about: Now in German | NetHack auf deutsch 

Ohle Claussen wrote:
> On 2008-01-21, Janis wrote:
>>On 21 Jan., 13:23, "Tony Crawford" <t... RemoveThis @kuerbis.dnsalias.net> wrote:
>>
>>>A long time in the works, and still not finished of course, but playable:
>>>We call it NetzHack (note the 'z'), the German translation of NetHack
>>>3.4.3.
>>
>>I'd be interested to know about how you've implemented the grammer
>>part,
>
> Not ideally, it seems...
> from the Screenshot on www.netzhack.de:
>
> "Die Flammen von deinen Kerzen werden schwach"
>
> ... is a bad form of the genitivus.

(Is that a genitivus at all? Sounds a bit like a bavarian colloquial
variant, like "der Kerzen wo grad brennt hod"
I suppose it should be; "Die Flammen deiner Kerzen werden schwach."
Noticed that, too, but didn't want to criticize before knowing about
what effort they spent and in which way they have implemented grammer.

> Also, why are there only windows binaries
> and no sources for download?

I assumed netzhack-0.1.0.tgz would have the source; haven't downloaded
to check it out, though.

Janis
 >> Stay informed about: Now in German | NetHack auf deutsch 

On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 23:07:52 +0100, Ohle Claussen
<ohle.claussen RemoveThis @ds.mpg.de> wrote:

> Also, why are there only windows binaries
> and no sources for download?

And what the hell is "LIESMICH" supposed to mean, anyway?

--
When we dance around drunk in our underwear,
we don't ask ourselves any questions.
--Sawaki Kôdô roshi
 >> Stay informed about: Now in German | NetHack auf deutsch 

On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 23:07:52 +0100, Ohle Claussen
<ohle.claussen.RemoveThis@ds.mpg.de> wrote:

>> I'd be interested to know about how you've implemented the grammer
>> part,
>
> Not ideally, it seems...
> from the Screenshot on www.netzhack.de:
>
> "Die Flammen von deinen Kerzen werden schwach"
>
> ... is a bad form of the genitivus.

The output comes from line 1222 of timeout.c:

pline("Die Flamme%s von %s %s schwach!", many ? "n" : "",
yourthe_dat(menorah ? "Leuchter-Kerze" : "Kerze", obj),
many ? "werden" : " wird");

If you delete the "von " and replace the macro invocation
yourthe_dat with yourthe_gen (the macros are in include/german.h),
you can make yourself happy. Isn't open source wonderful?

But you're right, the grammar implementation is without a doubt
suboptimal.

Tony
 >> Stay informed about: Now in German | NetHack auf deutsch 

Tony Crawford wrote:

> And what the hell is "LIESMICH" supposed to mean, anyway?

README, I suppose.

Raisse, killed by burning scrolls

--
irina.TakeThisOut@valdyas.org LegoHack: http://www.valdyas.org/irina/nethack/
Status of Raisse (piously neutral): Level 8 HP 63(67) AC -3, fast.
 >> Stay informed about: Now in German | NetHack auf deutsch 

On 2008-01-22, Ray Chason wrote:
> Ohle Claussen wrote:
>>
>>Also, why are there only windows binaries
>>and no sources for download?
>
> http://www.netzhack.de/download/netzhack-0.1.0.tgz is a source tarball.

Yes, didn't see it first.

--
Ohle Claussen | GPG-Key-ID E7149169
----------===========----------
BOFH Excuse #192:
runaway cat on system.
 >> Stay informed about: Now in German | NetHack auf deutsch 

Ray Chason <chasonr.DeleteThis@newsguy.com.SPAMMEN.VERBOTEN> wrote:
>
> Are you in any contact at all with the people behind
> http://nethack-de.sourceforge.net/ ?

Hm, that sounds like you didn't get the e-mail I sent you on 17
December?

> Having two German NetHacks seems a needless waste of effort.

The problem is we tackled the translation quite differently.

As far as I have seen the code of NetzHack, the chief focus has been
on translating the strings into German, leaving finishing the grammar
implementation to a later date.

Whereas I tried with NetHack-De as the first part programming a
grammar framework that would cope with everything NetHack and the
German language could throw at it.

That means that only non-code parts of NetHack can be shared.

Bye
Patric

--
NetHack-De: NetHack auf Deutsch
Homepage: http://nethack-de.sourceforge.net/
Project page: http://sourceforge.net/projects/nethack-de
 >> Stay informed about: Now in German | NetHack auf deutsch 

Patric Mueller wrote:
>
>Ray Chason <chasonr RemoveThis @newsguy.com.SPAMMEN.VERBOTEN> wrote:
>>
>> Are you in any contact at all with the people behind
>> http://nethack-de.sourceforge.net/ ?
>
>Hm, that sounds like you didn't get the e-mail I sent you on 17
>December?

Apparently not. (checks my inbox) Nope, nothing on that date. Sorry.

>> Having two German NetHacks seems a needless waste of effort.
>
>The problem is we tackled the translation quite differently.
>
>As far as I have seen the code of NetzHack, the chief focus has been
>on translating the strings into German, leaving finishing the grammar
>implementation to a later date.
>
>Whereas I tried with NetHack-De as the first part programming a
>grammar framework that would cope with everything NetHack and the
>German language could throw at it.
>
>That means that only non-code parts of NetHack can be shared.

Yes, I've often thought that a language with noun cases would be quite an
interesting thing to do NetHack in. The Spanish language has no such ornaments,
not even a genitive/posessive -- "the soldier's sword" comes out "la espada del
soldado". Japanese, AIUI, uses the particle "no" (Muramasa no Tsurugi) to do
this.

--
--------------===============<[ Ray Chason ]>===============--------------
The War on Terra is not meant to be won.
Delendae sunt RIAA, MPAA et Windoze
 >> Stay informed about: Now in German | NetHack auf deutsch 

Tony Crawford wrote:
> Hi gang!
>
> A long time in the works, and still not finished of course, but playable:
>
> We call it NetzHack (note the 'z'), the German translation of NetHack
> 3.4.3.
>
> See http://www.netzhack.de/

Nice idea, but the real hard part comes after the translation: removing
and adding extra use of features:

A Special property of a sink in Nethack doesn't make any sense for a
German Waschbecken, whereas for a fountain (=Springbrunnen) you could
add a chance (10%? perhaps depending on luck) to be able to #jump (or
#spring). Knights will only have the intrinsic jumping if mounted (or
any character while polymorphed into a horse).

Just my 0.02¤

cu Thomas
--
"Prisons are needed only to provide the illusion that courts and police
are effective. They're a kind of job insurance."
(Leto II. in: Frank Herbert, God Emperor of Dune)
http://thomas.dergrossebruder.org/
 >> Stay informed about: Now in German | NetHack auf deutsch 

Ray Chason <chasonr.TakeThisOut@newsguy.com.SPAMMEN.VERBOTEN> wrote:
> Patric Mueller wrote:
>>Ray Chason <chasonr.TakeThisOut@newsguy.com.SPAMMEN.VERBOTEN> wrote:
>>
>>Hm, that sounds like you didn't get the e-mail I sent you on 17
>>December?
>
> Apparently not. (checks my inbox) Nope, nothing on that date. Sorry.

That's not good. I checked my mails too and there is no error message.
Losing e-mails is not funny.

I've sent you three e-mails from three accounts (gmx, work and google)
to check which one get through to you.

>>That means that only non-code parts of NetHack can be shared.
>
> Yes, I've often thought that a language with noun cases would be quite an
> interesting thing to do NetHack in.

My experience is that the cases are not the hard part per se. There is
seldom more than one object in a sentence. Most sentences in NetHack
are of the form
"(a|the) (adjectives) (monster|you) verb (direct object)

With the framework I've built that's relatively easy to accomplish.

Harder are sentences that get generated depending on different
variables with heavy usage of the question mark operator.

First you have to understand what the code does then what a good
translation would be and finally getting the German word order right
(which can be difficult because of the separable verbs).

I would say the most difficult part is to find out what the programmer
wanted and what the program under which circumstances does.

> The Spanish language has no such ornaments,
> not even a genitive/posessive -- "the soldier's sword" comes out "la espada del
> soldado". Japanese, AIUI, uses the particle "no" (Muramasa no Tsurugi) to do
> this.

Yes, but in Spanish you also had the problem to distinguish the gender
of the nouns. If the noun is feminine you have to use 'la espada della
soldada' (is this correct? I don't know Spanish well, only French,
Italian[which have this] and Latin[which is a different cup of tea]).

Does Spanish NetHack respect NetHacks Gender-flag? For example is your
pet cat 'un gato' or 'una gata' depending this flag?

Bye
Patric

--
NetHack-De: NetHack auf Deutsch
Homepage: http://nethack-de.sourceforge.net/
Project page: http://sourceforge.net/projects/nethack-de
 >> Stay informed about: Now in German | NetHack auf deutsch 

Patric Mueller <bhaak.TakeThisOut@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
> Yes, but in Spanish you also had the problem to distinguish the gender
> of the nouns. If the noun is feminine you have to use 'la espada della
> soldada' (is this correct? I don't know Spanish well, only French,
> Italian[which have this] and Latin[which is a different cup of tea]).

And here I forgot to add:
If you already have to decide if you have to take male or female
preposition it is almost no extrawork to also search for the correct
case.

Because in English you have to do neither (apart from a/an there's
nothing complicating the issue) the step from nothing to
gender-distinction is bigger than from gender-distinction to
case-distinction.

IMO you should already have quite an idea of the general problems
because of your programming of Spanish NetHack.

Bye
Patric

--
NetHack-De: NetHack auf Deutsch
Homepage: http://nethack-de.sourceforge.net/
Project page: http://sourceforge.net/projects/nethack-de
 >> Stay informed about: Now in German | NetHack auf deutsch