Fighter dual class to thief.

<djarvinen.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1181690322.048262.200220@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 10, 6:27 pm, mkfrn....DeleteThis@gmail.com wrote:
>> In BGII, I'm planning on dual classing my fighter to a thief. What
>> are the expert opinions on what is the best level to do this?
>
> The most 'efficient' time to dual-class a character is just after it
> receives bonuses, such as weapon skills, etc. In the case of a
> fighter, I believe lvl 12 (unless I remember incorrectly) is a
> pretty
> good time to dual. If you wait longer, then you won't get back your
> fighter abilities for a loooong time, and if you dual too early,
> your
> low fighter skills won't have much impact in the later game.
>
>>From a role-playing aspect, I can see where this could be
> interesting. But from a practical standpoint, I don't think it has
> much benefit.
>
> One alternative option might be to start with a Thief, get the
> lockpicking/trap detecting skills up a bit, and then dual around
> level
> 10-12 to a fighter. That way you still get some of the thief
> advantages but your fighter remains 'open ended' and won't dead-end
> early.

Good times to dual away from fighter, to any other class:

In BG1 - Level 6 or earlier, otherwise you won't get your fighter
ability back before the end of the game. Level 5 if you're dualling to
a Mage, because mages have the biggest XP requirements - you can't get
Fighter 6 and Mage 7 out of just 89,000 XP. You can get Fighter 6 /
Thief 7 or Fighter 6 / Cleric 7, though.

In BG1 with the expansion Tales of the Sword Coast - You can get away
with level 7 when dualling to a Thief or Mage, but not to a Cleric -
there's a big jump in the Cleric XP requirement between levels 7 and
8, and the XP cap is too low to get you both Fighter 7 and Cleric 8
out of 161,000 XP. However, you can get to Fighter 7 / Thief 8 and
Fighter 7 / Mage 8 (although it'll be pretty late in the game by the
time you get your thief or mage abilities back, and the rest of the
party will pretty much have to carry you until then.)

In BG2: At or before level 13, and there's really the following
options:

(1) Dual straight away at level 7 (or 8, if you came in from a BG1
game that had Tales of the Sword Coast). You'll get your thief ability
back very quickly by levelling to 8 (or 9).

(2) Level up to 9 and then dual. That'll get you the best of fighter
hit points (fighters get 1d10 HP per level, thieves only 1d6), and an
extra weapon proficiency, and it won't take you *that* much longer to
level up to 10 as a thief and get your fighter ability back. So this
is probably a superior option.compared to the "immediate dual-class",
if you want to be both a fighter and thief for as long as possible.

Alternatively, if you're prepared to wait a lot longer to get your
fighting ability back but want to keep more fighter ability with your
thief ability,

(3) Level up to 12 and then dual. You'll have to wait a longer time
before you can dual-class, and this also means that you'll take a
longer time levelling back up to get your fighter ability back (you'll
have to be thief level 13). But again this can get you an extra weapon
proficiency star that you can put towards, say, grandmastery in a
decent weapon. This is probably the optimum point for "late
dual-classing" if you have Shadows of Amn only.

(4) Level up to 13 and dual. This nets you an extra 1/2 attack per
round (1 attack every 2 rounds). But, having to level all the way up
to 14 before you can get *any* fighter abilities back at all, can take
annoyingly long. Realistically, this option is only practical if you
have the Throne of Bhaal expansion, and expect to level well beyond 14
in the remainder of the game. If you don't have ToB, then you'll only
really get your fighter abilities back very close to the end, too late
for it to be worth it. If you do, then the extra attack every couple
of rounds can make a major difference for a longer and more
significant portion of the game.

Jonathan.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
 >> Stay informed about: Fighter dual class to thief. 

Snipped great advice.

Realistically, this option is only practical if you
> have the Throne of Bhaal expansion, and expect to level well beyond 14
> in the remainder of the game. If you don't have ToB, then you'll only
> really get your fighter abilities back very close to the end, too late
> for it to be worth it. If you do, then the extra attack every couple
> of rounds can make a major difference for a longer and more
> significant portion of the game.
>
> Jonathan.

Just to note. If you do intend to play the same character in TOB multi
class characters are stronger than dual class. A Halfling Fighter/
Thief multi class will be stronger than any combination or level of
Fighter/Thief dual class. Thieves high level abilities are awesome in
TOB and you will miss out on them by dual classing.

Badbark.
 >> Stay informed about: Fighter dual class to thief. 

"Badbark" <badbark.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1181905957.715960.26130@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> Snipped great advice.
>
> Realistically, this option is only practical if you
>> have the Throne of Bhaal expansion, and expect to level well beyond
>> 14
>> in the remainder of the game. If you don't have ToB, then you'll
>> only
>> really get your fighter abilities back very close to the end, too
>> late
>> for it to be worth it. If you do, then the extra attack every
>> couple
>> of rounds can make a major difference for a longer and more
>> significant portion of the game.
>>
>> Jonathan.
>
> Just to note. If you do intend to play the same character in TOB
> multi
> class characters are stronger than dual class. A Halfling Fighter/
> Thief multi class will be stronger than any combination or level of
> Fighter/Thief dual class. Thieves high level abilities are awesome
> in
> TOB and you will miss out on them by dual classing.

No, you won't, as long as you can get to 3 million XP in your second
class (thief).

What you'll miss out on is the ability to have *both* fighter *and*
thief high level abilities. In other words, no Whirlwind or Greater
Whirlwind, because you dualled away from fighter too early.

And if you wait till you get 3 million XP as a fighter, then you've
dualled too late and won't get your thief abilities back till far too
late even in TOB, if you get them at all. Whereas multi class
characters start getting high level abilities as soon as they reach 3
million XP *total* (1.5 million in each class). This is annoying when
they're mages (who have to reach level 18 as a mage to cast 9th-level
or Quest-level spells, which is still 3 million XP away given that
only half their gained XP goes to the mage class) or clerics (who have
to reach level 14 as a cleric to cast 7th-level spells or Quest-level
spells), but no problem at all to fighters or thieves (whose
high-level abilities can be used at any level).

So, yes, multi-class characters are far better than a dual-class
character that dualled too late. Level 13, however, is a reasonably
survivable "latest feasible" dual-class - if you do all the sidequests
it's possible to get to level 13 in chapter 3 of Shadows of Amn, and
then reach level 14 as a thief before finishing SOA: which means you
get your level 13 fighter abilities back (including your weapon
proficiencies, the extra half attack per round from levels 7 and 13,
and the ability to reach Grand Mastery), and can then go on into TOB
and get high-level thief abilities once you get 3 million XP as a
thief, which should not be difficult to reach given the amount of XP
available in TOB.

Realistically, though, a dual-class character is going to be "mainly
the second class, with a bit of the first thrown in", whereas a
multi-class character is "fully both classes but to not such a high
level in either". This is particularly noticeable with multi-class
mages, for whom it takes *massively* longer to reach important
breakpoints in their mage levels - such as level 6 for Pierce Magic,
level 7 for Ruby Ray, level 9 for 9th-level spells (the latter
requiring level 18, which is over 3 million XP, which means a
multi-class mage needs TWICE that much.) Try to get a multi-class mage
to even level 12 and you really notice the difference: having only Jan
and/or Aerie as your mages in chapters 2-3 will make a major
difference compared to having Nalia or Edwin, who will reach much
higher mage levels more quickly, or indeed having Imoen around for
chapter 4 onwards.

The thing about multi-classing involving thieves, though, is that you
only really need half a thief anyway and will *still* have more thief
skill points than you know what to do with. Especially if you also
keep Imoen around (or Yoshimo, in chapters 1-3) for the important
duties of Open Locks and Find Traps, leaving your main character free
to concentrate on other thief functions such as picking pockets,
sneaking and backstabbing (which is especially useful for a
Fighter-Thief dual or multi) or setting traps.

Also of importance: Multi-classing (instead of dual-classing) is truly
amazing early on - particularly in BG1 - because the scaling XP
requirements of levels mean you're usually only one level behind a
single-class character, rather than several levels behind. So instead
of being a level 8 in one class, you're probably 7/7 in two classes.
However, a multi-class will fall behind a dual-class in levels later
on, which is why dual-classing is preferable if it's a spellcasting
class you're moving into.

But, fighter/thief? I'd agree that a non-human multi-class would be
the best option of all. Second-best options would be a human
dual-classing at level 9 (if playing Shadows of Amn only) or 13 (if
playing Throne of Bhaal).

Jonathan.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
 >> Stay informed about: Fighter dual class to thief. 

On Jun 18, 5:44 am, "Jonathan Ellis" <jle30....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:

[snip waaaayyyy more advice than I thought I was going to get.]

Thanks for the long and thoughtful replies. I do have TOB installed,
but I went and dualed from fighter at level 9, so I'm basically
playing a thief with a lot of hit points. The 3 proficiencies in
Katana, 2 in single weapon style, and Celestial Fury make him a pretty
bad ass thief, though. He's a level 11 thief now, and is a better
fighter than Minsc or Keldorn right now, although I'm sure he will
soon be eclipsed by them.

I did notice one thing odd, though. Now that I've gotten my fighter
skills back, I can wear any armor. I expected this. What I didn't
expect is that wearing metal armor doesn't affect my thief abilities!
Is this a bug or what?

Mike
 >> Stay informed about: Fighter dual class to thief. 

mkfrnkln.DeleteThis@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jun 18, 5:44 am, "Jonathan Ellis" <jle30....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [snip waaaayyyy more advice than I thought I was going to get.]
>
> Thanks for the long and thoughtful replies. I do have TOB installed,
> but I went and dualed from fighter at level 9, so I'm basically
> playing a thief with a lot of hit points. The 3 proficiencies in
> Katana, 2 in single weapon style, and Celestial Fury make him a pretty
> bad ass thief, though. He's a level 11 thief now, and is a better
> fighter than Minsc or Keldorn right now, although I'm sure he will
> soon be eclipsed by them.
>
> I did notice one thing odd, though. Now that I've gotten my fighter
> skills back, I can wear any armor. I expected this. What I didn't
> expect is that wearing metal armor doesn't affect my thief abilities!
> Is this a bug or what?
>
> Mike
>

AFAIK it's a bug.
there is a mod to allow tieving in heavy armor, did you add that?
it allows theiving skills with a penalty depending on armor.
 >> Stay informed about: Fighter dual class to thief. 

On Jun 22, 8:44 am, underdog <m... DeleteThis @privacy.net> wrote:
> mkfrn... DeleteThis @gmail.com wrote:
> > On Jun 18, 5:44 am, "Jonathan Ellis" <jle30... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > [snip waaaayyyy more advice than I thought I was going to get.]
>
> > Thanks for the long and thoughtful replies. I do have TOB installed,
> > but I went and dualed from fighter at level 9, so I'm basically
> > playing a thief with a lot of hit points. The 3 proficiencies in
> > Katana, 2 in single weapon style, and Celestial Fury make him a pretty
> > bad ass thief, though. He's a level 11 thief now, and is a better
> > fighter than Minsc or Keldorn right now, although I'm sure he will
> > soon be eclipsed by them.
>
> > I did notice one thing odd, though. Now that I've gotten my fighter
> > skills back, I can wear any armor. I expected this. What I didn't
> > expect is that wearing metal armor doesn't affect my thief abilities!
> > Is this a bug or what?
>
> > Mike
>
> AFAIK it's a bug.
> there is a mod to allow tieving in heavy armor, did you add that?
> it allows theiving skills with a penalty depending on armor

I don't think so, unless it was part of one of the 2 patches, SOA and
TOB.

And full plate had zero effect on my thieving skills.

A serious test of my gaming integrity, not taking advantage of this
bug!

Mike
 >> Stay informed about: Fighter dual class to thief. 

mkfrnkln.DeleteThis@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jun 22, 8:44 am, underdog <m....DeleteThis@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>mkfrn...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>On Jun 18, 5:44 am, "Jonathan Ellis" <jle30....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>[snip waaaayyyy more advice than I thought I was going to get.]
>>
>>>Thanks for the long and thoughtful replies. I do have TOB installed,
>>>but I went and dualed from fighter at level 9, so I'm basically
>>>playing a thief with a lot of hit points. The 3 proficiencies in
>>>Katana, 2 in single weapon style, and Celestial Fury make him a pretty
>>>bad ass thief, though. He's a level 11 thief now, and is a better
>>>fighter than Minsc or Keldorn right now, although I'm sure he will
>>>soon be eclipsed by them.
>>
>>>I did notice one thing odd, though. Now that I've gotten my fighter
>>>skills back, I can wear any armor. I expected this. What I didn't
>>>expect is that wearing metal armor doesn't affect my thief abilities!
>>>Is this a bug or what?
>>
>>>Mike
>>
>>AFAIK it's a bug.
>>there is a mod to allow tieving in heavy armor, did you add that?
>>it allows theiving skills with a penalty depending on armor
>
>
> I don't think so, unless it was part of one of the 2 patches, SOA and
> TOB.
>
> And full plate had zero effect on my thieving skills.
>
> A serious test of my gaming integrity, not taking advantage of this
> bug!
>
> Mike
>
2 patches?
did you install ToB, then install the SoA patch then the ToB patch?
if that was wrong you should have installed only the ToB patch, don't
think that will effect the thieving in heavy armor though.
Also don't know how badly that will affect the rest of the game either
both patches replace the dialog.tlk file so it's possible the the ToB
just undid what the SoA did and no real harm but I don't know.
 >> Stay informed about: Fighter dual class to thief.