Fallout 3 Hands-On Preview @Bit-Tech

In article <g7aoj8$gm3$1@registered.motzarella.org>,
Nostromo <nostromo.DeleteThis@nospam.org> wrote:
>
>I mean, FFS ppl, how many games have devs _completely_ delivered on in
>the past 5-7 years?

The only complaint I had about Portal was that it ended.

--
Kyle Haight
 >> Stay informed about: Fallout 3 Hands-On Preview @Bit-Tech 

> I'm still reading the article but this line worrys me: "though Bethesda
> has tried it's best to make Fallout 3 the type of thing that you can play
> pretty much just as a shooter if you want".
>
> So the emphasis in the design was FPS with RPG elements added on.

I fail to see the logical passage between the first paragraph and the second
one.
 >> Stay informed about: Fallout 3 Hands-On Preview @Bit-Tech 

Vincenzo Beretta wrote:
>> I'm still reading the article but this line worrys me: "though
>> Bethesda has tried it's best to make Fallout 3 the type of thing
>> that you can play pretty much just as a shooter if you want".
>>
>> So the emphasis in the design was FPS with RPG elements added on.
>
> I fail to see the logical passage between the first paragraph and the
> second one.

It means that whenever they had to make a choice that would either A)
enhance it as a FPS; or B) enhance it as a RPG; they went with A. It
implies that the same consideration was NOT given to making it a game that
one could play "pretty much just as a RPG if you want".

--
History Channel is showing 'Ice Road Truckers' as part of their
"American Originals" brand of shows.

'Ice Road Truckers' is a show about Canadian truck drivers.

(Sig life is directly related to amount of commentary received about
it.)
 >> Stay informed about: Fallout 3 Hands-On Preview @Bit-Tech 

> If Beth were really smart & believed in their product, they would've
> gotten a half dozen NMA diehards to some sittings & rolled the dice;
> instead it's mostly just paid journos & TES fanboys so far.

....While on the forums and NGs you have clueless players (literally: they
cannot have a single clue about a game they have not played) & TES hateboys.
Big chance of finding a factual opinion.

Anyway, I'm still waiting for my complimentary Ferrari, here. Hmmm.... wait,
I wasn't promised one. Drats! Better to read the fine printing next time :^/
 >> Stay informed about: Fallout 3 Hands-On Preview @Bit-Tech 

On Aug 5, 5:34 pm, "Vincenzo Beretta" <reck... RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I'm still reading the article but this line worrys me: "though Bethesda
> > has tried it's best to make Fallout 3 the type of thing that you can play
> > pretty much just as a shooter if you want".
>
> > So the emphasis in the design was FPS with RPG elements added on.
>
> I fail to see the logical passage between the first paragraph and the second
> one.

Basically, you can play the game purely as an FPS (first paragraph)
but you can't play it purely as Fallout 1/2 style RPG (since the use
of pausable combat is by some weird reason, limited)
 >> Stay informed about: Fallout 3 Hands-On Preview @Bit-Tech 

On Aug 5, 7:03 pm, Justisaur <justis....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 5, 6:26 am, Wolfing <wolfi....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Aug 4, 7:05 pm, "CJM" <cjmnew....DeleteThis@nospam.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > "Wolfing" <wolfi....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> > >news:30d52603-5dc1-44dd-8327-af4ca5dd66fa@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com....
>
> > > > After reading it, it sounds like what I've said. A fun shooter with
> > > > RPG elements. This part is what convinced me:
> > > > "Combat too has a few flaws. While the VATS method for taking down
> > > > enemies is fun, get into a big fight and you’ll be unable to keep the
> > > > slow-down effect going and will fall back to the real-time point and
> > > > shoot mechanic – which isn’t bad per se, but suffers a little when
> > > > compared to other FPS games..."
>
> > > Hmmm.... Selective quoting?
>
> > > The line that follows your snippet is:
>
> > > "Running and gunning is ostensibly fine, but does at time feel a little bit
> > > unsatisfying and it can shine through that Fallout 3 is an RPG first and FPS
> > > later. "
>
> > > Not a 'fun shooter with RPG Elements'... well according to this guy anyway.
>
> > I left it out trying to separate data from opinion. Data was that in
> > fights you can only use VATS a bit, then fall back to a shooter that
> > he then says it sucks compared to real shooters. So the point remains,
> > VATS (or just the ability to pause and change targets/actions without
> > necessarily having the 'called shot' ability) should have been usable
> > at will. Those who want to play the game as a pure shooter can do it,
> > those who want to play as RPG should be able to do it too.
>
> I'd bet on a mod within a week of release to give you instantly
> regenerating AP points, so you can always use V.A.T.S.  I imagine that
> would make the game too easy, and invalidate some of the perks from
> what the developers have said though.
>
> - Justisaur
I don't use gameplay altering mods, for the same reason you
mentioned... The devs build the game in their known environment, with
challenges appropriate to what they know is in the game. I like
experiencing games as the devs designed. I only use mods that enhance
my experience without touching gameplay (for example, the only mod I
used in Oblivion was one that reduced the font size from the console-
like one that comes with the game).
Although, if there was a mod that allowed me to just pause the game at
will (without necessarily using the targeted system, that would use
the action points)
 >> Stay informed about: Fallout 3 Hands-On Preview @Bit-Tech 

On Aug 6, 9:24 am, Wolfing <wolfi... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 5, 7:03 pm, Justisaur <justis... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Aug 5, 6:26 am, Wolfing <wolfi... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 4, 7:05 pm, "CJM" <cjmnew... DeleteThis @nospam.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > > "Wolfing" <wolfi... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> > > >news:30d52603-5dc1-44dd-8327-af4ca5dd66fa@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > > > After reading it, it sounds like what I've said. A fun shooter with
> > > > > RPG elements. This part is what convinced me:
> > > > > "Combat too has a few flaws. While the VATS method for taking down
> > > > > enemies is fun, get into a big fight and you’ll be unable to keep the
> > > > > slow-down effect going and will fall back to the real-time point and
> > > > > shoot mechanic – which isn’t bad per se, but suffers a little when
> > > > > compared to other FPS games..."
>
> > > > Hmmm.... Selective quoting?
>
> > > > The line that follows your snippet is:
>
> > > > "Running and gunning is ostensibly fine, but does at time feel a little bit
> > > > unsatisfying and it can shine through that Fallout 3 is an RPG first and FPS
> > > > later. "
>
> > > > Not a 'fun shooter with RPG Elements'... well according to this guy anyway.
>
> > > I left it out trying to separate data from opinion. Data was that in
> > > fights you can only use VATS a bit, then fall back to a shooter that
> > > he then says it sucks compared to real shooters. So the point remains,
> > > VATS (or just the ability to pause and change targets/actions without
> > > necessarily having the 'called shot' ability) should have been usable
> > > at will. Those who want to play the game as a pure shooter can do it,
> > > those who want to play as RPG should be able to do it too.
>
> > I'd bet on a mod within a week of release to give you instantly
> > regenerating AP points, so you can always use V.A.T.S.  I imagine that
> > would make the game too easy, and invalidate some of the perks from
> > what the developers have said though.
>
> > - Justisaur
>
> I don't use gameplay altering mods, for the same reason you
> mentioned... The devs build the game in their known environment, with
> challenges appropriate to what they know is in the game. I like
> experiencing games as the devs designed.  I only use mods that enhance
> my experience without touching gameplay (for example, the only mod I
> used in Oblivion was one that reduced the font size from the console-
> like one that comes with the game).
> Although, if there was a mod that allowed me to just pause the game at
> will (without necessarily using the targeted system, that would use
> the action points)

Actually, correcting myself, I read in another thread from an
interview that it seems you can enter VAT mode at will, but using the
'aimed shots' is what uses your AP. If that's the case then I'm ok
with that.
They also mentioned you can't use items (like stimpacks) in VAT mode.
I don't necessarily like it, but it's no big deal. I think using items
should use action points just like attacks, but shouldn't affect too
much.
 >> Stay informed about: Fallout 3 Hands-On Preview @Bit-Tech 

On Aug 6, 9:19 am, Wolfing <wolfi....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 5, 5:34 pm, "Vincenzo Beretta" <reck....RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I'm still reading the article but this line worrys me: "though Bethesda
> > > has tried it's best to make Fallout 3 the type of thing that you can play
> > > pretty much just as a shooter if you want".
>
> > > So the emphasis in the design was FPS with RPG elements added on.
>
> > I fail to see the logical passage between the first paragraph and the second
> > one.
>
> Basically, you can play the game purely as an FPS (first paragraph)
> but you can't play it purely as Fallout 1/2 style RPG (since the use
> of pausable combat is by some weird reason, limited)

(Correcting myself, seems like you can indeed pause at will, just not
use the aimed shots. In that case, scratch what I said)
 >> Stay informed about: Fallout 3 Hands-On Preview @Bit-Tech 

Wolfing wrote:
> On Aug 6, 9:24 am, Wolfing <wolfi....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Aug 5, 7:03 pm, Justisaur <justis....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On Aug 5, 6:26 am, Wolfing <wolfi....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Aug 4, 7:05 pm, "CJM" <cjmnew....TakeThisOut@nospam.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Wolfing" <wolfi....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>
>>>>> news:30d52603-5dc1-44dd-8327-af4ca5dd66fa@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>> After reading it, it sounds like what I've said. A fun shooter with
>>>>>> RPG elements. This part is what convinced me:
>>>>>> "Combat too has a few flaws. While the VATS method for taking down
>>>>>> enemies is fun, get into a big fight and you’ll be unable to keep the
>>>>>> slow-down effect going and will fall back to the real-time point and
>>>>>> shoot mechanic – which isn’t bad per se, but suffers a little when
>>>>>> compared to other FPS games..."
>>>>>>
>>>>> Hmmm.... Selective quoting?
>>>>>
>>>>> The line that follows your snippet is:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Running and gunning is ostensibly fine, but does at time feel a little bit
>>>>> unsatisfying and it can shine through that Fallout 3 is an RPG first and FPS
>>>>> later. "
>>>>>
>>>>> Not a 'fun shooter with RPG Elements'... well according to this guy anyway.
>>>>>
>>>> I left it out trying to separate data from opinion. Data was that in
>>>> fights you can only use VATS a bit, then fall back to a shooter that
>>>> he then says it sucks compared to real shooters. So the point remains,
>>>> VATS (or just the ability to pause and change targets/actions without
>>>> necessarily having the 'called shot' ability) should have been usable
>>>> at will. Those who want to play the game as a pure shooter can do it,
>>>> those who want to play as RPG should be able to do it too.
>>>>
>>> I'd bet on a mod within a week of release to give you instantly
>>> regenerating AP points, so you can always use V.A.T.S. I imagine that
>>> would make the game too easy, and invalidate some of the perks from
>>> what the developers have said though.
>>>
>>> - Justisaur
>>>
>> I don't use gameplay altering mods, for the same reason you
>> mentioned... The devs build the game in their known environment, with
>> challenges appropriate to what they know is in the game. I like
>> experiencing games as the devs designed. I only use mods that enhance
>> my experience without touching gameplay (for example, the only mod I
>> used in Oblivion was one that reduced the font size from the console-
>> like one that comes with the game).
>> Although, if there was a mod that allowed me to just pause the game at
>> will (without necessarily using the targeted system, that would use
>> the action points)
>>
>
> Actually, correcting myself, I read in another thread from an
> interview that it seems you can enter VAT mode at will, but using the
> 'aimed shots' is what uses your AP. If that's the case then I'm ok
> with that.
> They also mentioned you can't use items (like stimpacks) in VAT mode.
> I don't necessarily like it, but it's no big deal. I think using items
> should use action points just like attacks, but shouldn't affect too
> much.
>

From what I've seen in several reviews and such, action points recharge
constantly, and are weighted according to the action (and equipment) you
are using. A pistol uses less action points than a rifle (more pistol
shots for the same cost as a single rifle shot), and I'm sure that melee
and equipment usage will also have an action point "cost" involved.
Sounds like the devs are hard at work trying to balance costs and
effectiveness, even how fast APs recharge, as they approach the release
date. I bet they are using all of the journalists and reviewers as beta
testers... heh

CoinSpin
 >> Stay informed about: Fallout 3 Hands-On Preview @Bit-Tech 

On Aug 5, 8:22 pm, khai....RemoveThis@lefDELETEtistME.org (Kyle Haight) wrote:
> The only complaint I had about Portal was that it ended.

It comes with Steam, and I don't want to buy any products
with Steam, so that's my biggest complaint. (no, I won't
steal it)
 >> Stay informed about: Fallout 3 Hands-On Preview @Bit-Tech 

"Wolfing" <wolfing1 RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
news:9b3197f7-1072-4592-a456-3650ffc23289@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> Basically, you can play the game purely as an FPS (first paragraph)
> but you can't play it purely as Fallout 1/2 style RPG (since the use
> of pausable combat is by some weird reason, limited)

Look... it's not going to be the same as Fallout 2, just like Fallout 2 was
and evolution from Fallout 1.

It's been ten years, and a lot has happened in that time...in terms of
hardware, game theory, and user expectations. If they built FO3 as a hi-res
version of FO it would bomb. Most of us have moved on from that era of game.

More importantly, the key to an RPG is that you get to play a role; that
actions you take (in character) affect how the game plays out. It is not
necessary for it to be turn-based, or isometric, or anything else. I would
agree that fast and accurate handeye coordination (the 'twitch' factor)
should not be a prerequesite, but the fact is, the majority of people want
to see a first-person game with good mouse/keyboard control. For those that
like FPSs, you can play FO3 as an FPS, albeit that you miss out on a lot of
the intended experience. You can also play it as an RPG, where you take a
more cerebral route. Or you can blend the two styles.

A concession I would make is that it would be ideal if there could be a VATS
action point scaling mechanism; a setting that allows you to increase or
decrease the rate at which you can acquire action points, perhaps with
another setting to control general difficulty, perhaps so those who want to
can scale up the difficulty but increase their VATS points. Whether anything
like this is already included remains to be seen, but if it ain't, I bet it
will be modded within days.

Yes, the game will undoubtedly have some concesssions to consoles. And, no,
I don't think it will be perfect, but what is? But I think it will be a
great game, and although gaming tastes and technologies have moved on since
FO2, I think the game will be a worthy successor.

I didn't like the consolitis and enemy levelling in Oblivion. I didn't like
the bareness and routine of Mass Effect. I didn't like the consolitis of
Bioshock and the fact that is was entirely on rails.

But I enjoyed playing all three nevertheless. And I'm sure it will be the
same with FO3.
 >> Stay informed about: Fallout 3 Hands-On Preview @Bit-Tech 

Kyle Haight wrote:
> In article <g7aoj8$gm3$1@registered.motzarella.org>,
> Nostromo <nostromo RemoveThis @nospam.org> wrote:
>> I mean, FFS ppl, how many games have devs _completely_ delivered on in
>> the past 5-7 years?
>
> The only complaint I had about Portal was that it ended.

But if it didn't end we wouldn't get to listen to the ending song!!

Loved it soooo much.

--
Ceo
 >> Stay informed about: Fallout 3 Hands-On Preview @Bit-Tech 

Kyle Haight wrote:
> In article <g7aoj8$gm3$1@registered.motzarella.org>,
> Nostromo <nostromo DeleteThis @nospam.org> wrote:
>> I mean, FFS ppl, how many games have devs _completely_ delivered on in
>> the past 5-7 years?
>
> The only complaint I had about Portal was that it ended.

I didn't say there were none, but I think the percentage overall would
be well into low single digits percentage figures. The question here
really is, did OB deliver on ALL its promises, or were you
ignorant/uncaring of them & then you were just pleasantly surprised when
you played the game? I'm really talking about hyped & greatly
anticipated games that promise the world & deliver about 1 acre's worth
of features they set out to. Hellgate:London anyone? Spore (or so it's
looking)? 99% of all fps games claiming to be the next big thing? AoC?

--
Nostromo
 >> Stay informed about: Fallout 3 Hands-On Preview @Bit-Tech