[Exalted] Poaching?

Patrick Baldwin wrote:
> So I've been re-reading Lunars, and the
> discussion of the role of the shaman got
> me wondering- do people who already have
> a relationship with a god still get Exalted?
>
> As in, if I'm a shaman with a good relationship
> with Father Oak, is Luna going to care about
> that? Do you end up abandoning your old god
> when Chosen by one of the Celestials, or do
> you now have a duty to two different gods?
>
> And how much wrangling in Yu-Shan happens as
> a result?
>
> ~P.

A Lunar doesn't really have a "duty" to Luna. Luna just sets the
preferences for Exaltation with the Lunar spark. The main
transformation that takes place is that a Lunar Exalt can now see
further "behind the curtain," so to speak. He knows that his old
shamanistic relationship with the Oak is one of the lower rungs in a
big political system. The old rules of his shamanistic relationship
don't apply because the Lunar is now a semidivine culture hero himself.

A powerful god might try to keep the same old arrangement (or something
like it) around, but it's a dangerous game for it.

Also, remember that shamanism isn't the same as out and out worship. A
priest might have a relationship based on sheer obedience, but a shaman
usually tests what he can get away with under the rules of the
relationship. Shamans know that gods are amoral and give them what they
want to get stuff or avoid bad things.

(Also: A "god" is more loosely defined than elsewhere. A shaman's
patron can be a spirit, Exalt, Raksha or kickass ghost -- anything that
has powers it can use for good or ill that wants to enter into a
relationship with a shaman.)

A Lunar usually discovers how limited the god is and the rules the god
operates under and can affect them as far as the circumstances will
allow. In many cases it might end up with: "Look, now I'm a god too. I
can either oppose you or we can come to some sort of cooperative
relationship. Let's team up, subdue yonder tribe and split the
winnings."

M.
 >> Stay informed about: [Exalted] Poaching? 

Richard Clayton <rZIGeclaZIGyton.RemoveThis@verizon.net> wrote:

Sorry to take so long about responding to this, I didn't
see it until someone else responded to my initial post.

Ah, Usenet- I love you in all your asynchronous chaos.

>Patrick Baldwin wrote:
>> So I've been re-reading Lunars, and the
>> discussion of the role of the shaman got
>> me wondering- do people who already have
>> a relationship with a god still get Exalted?

> Most likely, yes. Remember that most people in /Exalted/ don't
>"worship" gods in the D&D sense of "this is my god, and my ONLY god."
>The little gods of Creation tend to me more like local mafia bosses:
>"Nice crop fields you got there. Looks like a good harvest this year. Be
>a shame if something happened to it..." A shaman's job is to delicately
>juggle the ties of worship, sacrifice, and obligation between the local
>powers-that-be.

This, BTW, is one of the reasons I think the Immaculates might
have a point.

> Exaltation doesn't make all that go away, but it probably changes the
>playing field somewhat. The local spirits might be a bit more respectful
>when you suddenly have the power to annihilate them without much effort.

I'd imagine, yes. But really what I'm pondering is is it *rude*
to Exalt a mortal another god already has a relationship with.

Now, if it's a little enough god, it surely doesn't matter
much if it's rude, but what if you were, say, a Bride of Ahlat?

>> As in, if I'm a shaman with a good relationship
>> with Father Oak, is Luna going to care about
>> that?

> If you're a really GREAT shaman, that would probably be a point in your
>favor. Exaltations tend to happen to exceptional people, not
>rank-and-file mooks. If a No Moon soulshard is suddenly floating free,
>and you are the best shaman for a month's walk in every direction, and
>your chiminage and diplomacy keeps your tribe healthy and prosperous,
>your odds are probably better than most.

Well, that certainly makes some sense.

>> Do you end up abandoning your old god
>> when Chosen by one of the Celestials, or do
>> you now have a duty to two different gods?

> Again, this ain't D&D, where worshiping Snorgon means betraying
>Fnarkis.

It's totally possible to worship an entire pantheon in
D&D.

>Shamans and gods generally have partnerships of convenience and
>mutual need, not love or respect. You MIGHT still offer chiminage to
>Father Oak with as much fervor and devotion as before... or you might
>take the chance to renegotiate your deal. Or you might offer Father Oak
>a choice of either giving you what you want, or being eaten.

I guess that would depend on how well Father Oak was
treating you before hand.

>> And how much wrangling in Yu-Shan happens as
>> a result?

> No more than usual, I suspect. Gods spend a lot of time backstabbing,
>one-upping, and generally being catty to each other; while having a
>Lunar ally would probably be a feather in a god's cap, it's probably not
>worth being disrupted or starforged.

I was mostly thinking of between the god responsible for
the Exaltation and the god the character had a previous
relationship with. Does Ahlat get pissy if Luna steals
one of his brides?

~P.
 >> Stay informed about: [Exalted] Poaching? 

usiel RemoveThis @vampirethemasquerade.com wrote:

>Patrick Baldwin wrote:
>> So I've been re-reading Lunars, and the
>> discussion of the role of the shaman got
>> me wondering- do people who already have
>> a relationship with a god still get Exalted?
>>
>> As in, if I'm a shaman with a good relationship
>> with Father Oak, is Luna going to care about
>> that? Do you end up abandoning your old god
>> when Chosen by one of the Celestials, or do
>> you now have a duty to two different gods?
>>
>> And how much wrangling in Yu-Shan happens as
>> a result?
>>
>> ~P.

>A Lunar doesn't really have a "duty" to Luna. Luna just sets the
>preferences for Exaltation with the Lunar spark.

Really? Does Luna think that? What about the Unconquered
Sun? If during the Primordial war a Solar had decided
"you know what, screw this, I'm going on vacation", would
the Unconquered Sun be OK with that? I mean sure, the
Solars went all crazy at the end, but it seems like there's
a good chance he was too absorbed in the Games of Divinity
to really notice by that point.

Do the Celestials really expect *nothing* from those
they Choose?

>The main
>transformation that takes place is that a Lunar Exalt can now see
>further "behind the curtain," so to speak. He knows that his old
>shamanistic relationship with the Oak is one of the lower rungs in a
>big political system. The old rules of his shamanistic relationship
>don't apply because the Lunar is now a semidivine culture hero himself.

Thatcertainly meshes with other bits I've read- becoming
an Exalt seems to be the ultimate breaker of ties, whether
you're a Chayan, a citizen of Paragon, or, apparently,
a shaman.

>A powerful god might try to keep the same old arrangement (or something
>like it) around, but it's a dangerous game for it.

Why? I mean, if the Exalt is happy with something like the
old arrangment, that seems like it wouldn't be a problem.

>Also, remember that shamanism isn't the same as out and out worship. A
>priest might have a relationship based on sheer obedience, but a shaman
>usually tests what he can get away with under the rules of the
>relationship. Shamans know that gods are amoral and give them what they
>want to get stuff or avoid bad things.

The distinction between shaman and priest is an important
one, and one I wasn't really thinking of. What about
priests, then? Particularly ones of powerful gods
with deep connectiosn to them, like the Brides of Ahlat?

~P.
 >> Stay informed about: [Exalted] Poaching? 

Patrick Baldwin wrote:
> usiel DeleteThis @vampirethemasquerade.com wrote:
>
> >Patrick Baldwin wrote:

> Really? Does Luna think that? What about the Unconquered
> Sun? If during the Primordial war a Solar had decided
> "you know what, screw this, I'm going on vacation", would
> the Unconquered Sun be OK with that? I mean sure, the
> Solars went all crazy at the end, but it seems like there's
> a good chance he was too absorbed in the Games of Divinity
> to really notice by that point.
>
> Do the Celestials really expect *nothing* from those
> they Choose?

Well, during the Primordial War the US and Luna were actually paying
direct attention. Nowadays, they've simply set the preferences for
where an Exalted soul goes. These preferences have been set so that
Exalts will *tend* to obey their patron's agenda in a loose,
ideological fashion. Lunar shards go to self-reliant anarchists. Solar
shards go to passion-driven egoists. And with the shard come abilities
that encourage them to be who they are already, but moreso.

> >The main
> >transformation that takes place is that a Lunar Exalt can now see
> >further "behind the curtain," so to speak. He knows that his old
> >shamanistic relationship with the Oak is one of the lower rungs in a
> >big political system. The old rules of his shamanistic relationship
> >don't apply because the Lunar is now a semidivine culture hero himself.
>
> Thatcertainly meshes with other bits I've read- becoming
> an Exalt seems to be the ultimate breaker of ties, whether
> you're a Chayan, a citizen of Paragon, or, apparently,
> a shaman.

Lunars in particular are fond of being semidivine culture heroes who
create traditions and taboos.

> >A powerful god might try to keep the same old arrangement (or something
> >like it) around, but it's a dangerous game for it.
>
> Why? I mean, if the Exalt is happy with something like the
> old arrangment, that seems like it wouldn't be a problem.

Because the Exalt might kick the god's ass, either for selfish reasons
or because he goes temporarily insane from the Great Curse.

> >Also, remember that shamanism isn't the same as out and out worship. A
> >priest might have a relationship based on sheer obedience, but a shaman
> >usually tests what he can get away with under the rules of the
> >relationship. Shamans know that gods are amoral and give them what they
> >want to get stuff or avoid bad things.
>
> The distinction between shaman and priest is an important
> one, and one I wasn't really thinking of. What about
> priests, then? Particularly ones of powerful gods
> with deep connectiosn to them, like the Brides of Ahlat?
>
> ~P.

There's no hard and fast distinction. I'd say that a priest (using the
term as we might use it today for a Western reigion . . . mostly)
believes that a god bears moral authority as well as raw power. You
don't try to beat up the diety who taught you how to be a good person.
A shaman believes that a god's raw power is the only reason he's worth
talking to. Lunars prefer to engineer societies with shamans because
they will always try to get the better of the gods and don't believe
they're good for anything outside of what they can do. This doesn't
make worship less sincere, but more utilitarian. You worship thunder so
he doesn't hurt you . . . until some other god tells you how to ensnare
thunder, in which case you now worship *that* god and bind and mock
thunder.

So a Lunar shaman is not really that respectful of divine moral
authority to begin with. Once he realizes his temporal power is
comparable to his former patron -- that alters the bargain.

M.
 >> Stay informed about: [Exalted] Poaching? 

usiel.DeleteThis@vampirethemasquerade.com wrote:
> Patrick Baldwin wrote:
> > usiel.DeleteThis@vampirethemasquerade.com wrote:
> >
> > >Patrick Baldwin wrote:
>
> > Really? Does Luna think that? What about the Unconquered
> > Sun? If during the Primordial war a Solar had decided
> > "you know what, screw this, I'm going on vacation", would
> > the Unconquered Sun be OK with that? I mean sure, the
> > Solars went all crazy at the end, but it seems like there's
> > a good chance he was too absorbed in the Games of Divinity
> > to really notice by that point.
> >
> > Do the Celestials really expect *nothing* from those
> > they Choose?
>
> Well, during the Primordial War the US and Luna were actually paying
> direct attention. Nowadays, they've simply set the preferences for
> where an Exalted soul goes. These preferences have been set so that
> Exalts will *tend* to obey their patron's agenda in a loose,
> ideological fashion. Lunar shards go to self-reliant anarchists. Solar
> shards go to passion-driven egoists. And with the shard come abilities
> that encourage them to be who they are already, but moreso.
>
Luna still is paying attention. Remember, she still personally pays
each of her new Exalts a visit and there are a few accounts of her
sticking around with them and even taking them as lovers. Kajeha Lef in
the Lunars book has been shacking up with Luna for a while; Luna sends
her on a mission and clearly expects results.

Luna doesn't seem to be quite as addicted to the Games of Divinity as
the other Celestials, if she has this much time on her hands. The
Maidens occasionally show up at the office, but don't seem to have much
to do with any but the highest Sidereals. But they still expect all
Sids to work at crafting Fate. The 5 Elemental Dragons set up their
exaltations so that they wouuldn't HAVE to be involved with their
chosen (wonder if they're eligible to play the Games?).

> >Also, remember that shamanism isn't the same as out and out worship. A
> > >priest might have a relationship based on sheer obedience, but a shaman
> > >usually tests what he can get away with under the rules of the
> > >relationship. Shamans know that gods are amoral and give them what they
> > >want to get stuff or avoid bad things.
> >
> > The distinction between shaman and priest is an important
> > one, and one I wasn't really thinking of. What about
> > priests, then? Particularly ones of powerful gods
> > with deep connectiosn to them, like the Brides of Ahlat?
> >
>
> There's no hard and fast distinction. I'd say that a priest (using the
> term as we might use it today for a Western reigion . . . mostly)
> believes that a god bears moral authority as well as raw power. You
> don't try to beat up the diety who taught you how to be a good person.

You might want to review the "Priest" merit in the Player's Guide...

As for the Celestials' and other gods...I'm surprised no one's
mentioned this yet, but Lunars presents the case of Lef (mentioned
above) who was a former Bride of Ahlat until Luna turns up with
"documents from Heaven" that amount to an annulment. She literally
bought out her wedding contract from Ahlat!^_^

Dex
 >> Stay informed about: [Exalted] Poaching? 

Hand-of-Omega <handofomega DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:

>usiel@vampirethemasquerade.com wrote:
>> Patrick Baldwin wrote:
>> > usiel DeleteThis @vampirethemasquerade.com wrote:
>> >

<SNIP>

>Luna doesn't seem to be quite as addicted to the Games of Divinity as
>the other Celestials, if she has this much time on her hands. The
>Maidens occasionally show up at the office, but don't seem to have much
>to do with any but the highest Sidereals. But they still expect all
>Sids to work at crafting Fate. The 5 Elemental Dragons set up their
>exaltations so that they wouuldn't HAVE to be involved with their
>chosen (wonder if they're eligible to play the Games?).

Given how detached from the world he seems, does this
then suggest that the Unconquered Sun is a hard-core
Games junkie?

>> >Also, remember that shamanism isn't the same as out and out worship. A
>> > >priest might have a relationship based on sheer obedience, but a shaman
>> > >usually tests what he can get away with under the rules of the
>> > >relationship. Shamans know that gods are amoral and give them what they
>> > >want to get stuff or avoid bad things.
>> >
>> > The distinction between shaman and priest is an important
>> > one, and one I wasn't really thinking of. What about
>> > priests, then? Particularly ones of powerful gods
>> > with deep connectiosn to them, like the Brides of Ahlat?
>> >
>>
>> There's no hard and fast distinction. I'd say that a priest (using the
>> term as we might use it today for a Western reigion . . . mostly)
>> believes that a god bears moral authority as well as raw power. You
>> don't try to beat up the diety who taught you how to be a good person.

>You might want to review the "Priest" merit in the Player's Guide...

Not having the Players Guide, that would be difficult.

Care to summarize?

>As for the Celestials' and other gods...I'm surprised no one's
>mentioned this yet, but Lunars presents the case of Lef (mentioned
>above) who was a former Bride of Ahlat until Luna turns up with
>"documents from Heaven" that amount to an annulment. She literally
>bought out her wedding contract from Ahlat!^_^

Right- but did she need to? Could Ahlat really cause her
any substantial difficulty? Or is she just being polite?

What about the other Celestials? If Luna's the only one
paying attantion, and the other Celestials have
basically left things on autopilot, then do we have a
wide variety of gods who are pissy because the big
boys snag their toys every so often, without even
so much as a thanks?

~P.


>Dex
 >> Stay informed about: [Exalted] Poaching? 

Basically, Luna or US (who Games of Divinity paints as actually having
been a pretty hands-on and involved deity until towards the end) goes
"Ummm...hey, I'm taking that one." And while Ahlat or Father Oak or
whatnot can go "Hey!", it's not going to DO anything. They're less a
servant, and while proper procedure likely says that an Exalting deity
probably should compensate a lesser from whom he/she/it confiscates a
mortal, the price probably isn't TOO big. Besides, assuming the deity
plays its cards right? It now has a bigger toy to play with.

On the other hand, as others before me have said, it drastically
reshapes the playing field. Suddenly the shaman doesn't need to
appease a higher force--he can take it on as an equal, or even a
greater--humans seem to grow in power faster than Gods to, when they
take a mind to it.
 >> Stay informed about: [Exalted] Poaching? 

Damn, I need to check here more often. Sorry...^^;;

At least we've finally got some new posters around here!^_6

Patrick Baldwin wrote:
> Hand-of-Omega <handofomega DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >usiel@vampirethemasquerade.com wrote:
> >> Patrick Baldwin wrote:
> >> > usiel DeleteThis @vampirethemasquerade.com wrote:
> >> >
>
> <SNIP>
>
> >Luna doesn't seem to be quite as addicted to the Games of Divinity as
> >the other Celestials, if she has this much time on her hands. The
> >Maidens occasionally show up at the office, but don't seem to have much
> >to do with any but the highest Sidereals. But they still expect all
> >Sids to work at crafting Fate. The 5 Elemental Dragons set up their
> >exaltations so that they wouuldn't HAVE to be involved with their
> >chosen (wonder if they're eligible to play the Games?).
>
> Given how detached from the world he seems, does this
> then suggest that the Unconquered Sun is a hard-core
> Games junkie?
>
It would be interesting if some Sidereal PCs were to get hold of info
that suggested that the Primordials deliberately "spiked" the GoD to be
as addictive as possible to anyone else playing them, to bring about
their ruin. What would the PCs do with this info? Who could they go to?

> >> There's no hard and fast distinction. I'd say that a priest (using the
> >> term as we might use it today for a Western reigion . . . mostly)
> >> believes that a god bears moral authority as well as raw power. You
> >> don't try to beat up the diety who taught you how to be a good person.
>
> >You might want to review the "Priest" merit in the Player's Guide...
>
> Not having the Players Guide, that would be difficult.
>
> Care to summarize?
>
Sure. "The character is a recognized priest of a particular deity or
religion". The one-point Merit simply lowers Prayer difficulty and may
give the character symbolic dreams or visions from their patrons as
omens. Zeniths, Midnights, No Moons and Sidereals automatically have
this version of the merit.

The seven-point version gives characters "portentous dreams and even
waking visions from their masters, but their devotion and faith must be
ever-unwavering to retain favor". Basically, they can petition their
patron for miracles, including healing, exorcism, etc. They are also
marked by the patron they serve. It does say that Exalted can receive
annointing as high priests (which makes castes marks glow brightly when
they pray for a miracle) but doesn't say if they can serve gods other
than those who Exalted them (my guess would be No).

Many Thaumaturges of the "Holy Men" sort have a Supernatural Flaw
called "Oathbound Magic", which basically allows them to use their
unlocked Essence powers only when they hew to certain standards of
behavior, which can be mandated by whichever deity they follow, and
punishes them if they do not.

> >As for the Celestials' and other gods...I'm surprised no one's
> >mentioned this yet, but Lunars presents the case of Lef (mentioned
> >above) who was a former Bride of Ahlat until Luna turns up with
> >"documents from Heaven" that amount to an annulment. She literally
> >bought out her wedding contract from Ahlat!^_^
>
> Right- but did she need to? Could Ahlat really cause her
> any substantial difficulty? Or is she just being polite?
>
Personally? I think she did it just because it was funny.

> What about the other Celestials? If Luna's the only one
> paying attantion, and the other Celestials have
> basically left things on autopilot, then do we have a
> wide variety of gods who are pissy because the big
> boys snag their toys every so often, without even
> so much as a thanks?
>
Sure, why not? What can they DO about it? Frankly, given the state of
Heaven which is directly attributable to their games-playing, this is
the *least* of things the gods should be upset about. Unfortunately,
outright rebellion is a sure way to get a solar flare in your ass...

MAYbe if someone could wake up the 5 Elemental Dragons, something could
get done...

Dex
 >> Stay informed about: [Exalted] Poaching? 

Hand-of-Omega <handofomega.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Damn, I need to check here more often. Sorry...^^;;

>At least we've finally got some new posters around here!^_6

Not really all that new- been around since 1994.

I used to be a good bit more active, but the
Mage Revised flame wars caused me to reconsider
my Usnet usage patterns.

>Patrick Baldwin wrote:
>> Hand-of-Omega <handofomega.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >usiel@vampirethemasquerade.com wrote:
>> >> Patrick Baldwin wrote:
>> >> > usiel.DeleteThis@vampirethemasquerade.com wrote:
>> >> >
>>
>> <SNIP>
>>
>> >Luna doesn't seem to be quite as addicted to the Games of Divinity as
>> >the other Celestials, if she has this much time on her hands. The
>> >Maidens occasionally show up at the office, but don't seem to have much
>> >to do with any but the highest Sidereals. But they still expect all
>> >Sids to work at crafting Fate. The 5 Elemental Dragons set up their
>> >exaltations so that they wouuldn't HAVE to be involved with their
>> >chosen (wonder if they're eligible to play the Games?).
>>
>> Given how detached from the world he seems, does this
>> then suggest that the Unconquered Sun is a hard-core
>> Games junkie?
>>
>It would be interesting if some Sidereal PCs were to get hold of info
>that suggested that the Primordials deliberately "spiked" the GoD to be
>as addictive as possible to anyone else playing them, to bring about
>their ruin. What would the PCs do with this info? Who could they go to?

For some reason, I'd gotten the sense the Games were
addictive even to the Primordials, but it might just be
they're the most fun thing to do, not that they are
specifically addcitive per se.

It would be tricky finding someone you could talk
to about this that would both care and be in a position
to do anything.

>> >> There's no hard and fast distinction. I'd say that a priest (using the
>> >> term as we might use it today for a Western reigion . . . mostly)
>> >> believes that a god bears moral authority as well as raw power. You
>> >> don't try to beat up the diety who taught you how to be a good person.
>>
>> >You might want to review the "Priest" merit in the Player's Guide...
>>
>> Not having the Players Guide, that would be difficult.
>>
>> Care to summarize?
>>
>Sure. "The character is a recognized priest of a particular deity or
>religion". The one-point Merit simply lowers Prayer difficulty and may
>give the character symbolic dreams or visions from their patrons as
>omens. Zeniths, Midnights, No Moons and Sidereals automatically have
>this version of the merit.

Keen, I'm playing Zenith in our next Exalted game
and I just found out Merits & Flaws are in.

>The seven-point version gives characters "portentous dreams and even
>waking visions from their masters, but their devotion and faith must be
>ever-unwavering to retain favor". Basically, they can petition their
>patron for miracles, including healing, exorcism, etc. They are also
>marked by the patron they serve. It does say that Exalted can receive
>annointing as high priests (which makes castes marks glow brightly when
>they pray for a miracle) but doesn't say if they can serve gods other
>than those who Exalted them (my guess would be No).

At this point, I'm really not sure. Hell, there's that
crazy cannibal Solar in Rathess that not only serves
another god, he often lets that god possess him and
go walkabout.

<SNIP>
>> >As for the Celestials' and other gods...I'm surprised no one's
>> >mentioned this yet, but Lunars presents the case of Lef (mentioned
>> >above) who was a former Bride of Ahlat until Luna turns up with
>> >"documents from Heaven" that amount to an annulment. She literally
>> >bought out her wedding contract from Ahlat!^_^
>>
>> Right- but did she need to? Could Ahlat really cause her
>> any substantial difficulty? Or is she just being polite?
>>
>Personally? I think she did it just because it was funny.

I hadn't thought of that. But it *is* Luna.
Hmmm.

>> What about the other Celestials? If Luna's the only one
>> paying attantion, and the other Celestials have
>> basically left things on autopilot, then do we have a
>> wide variety of gods who are pissy because the big
>> boys snag their toys every so often, without even
>> so much as a thanks?
>>
>Sure, why not? What can they DO about it?

Having been involved with quite a few giant
bureaucracies, I can say that one should never
understimate the potential for annoyance of
a pissy mid-level bureaucrat.

~P.
 >> Stay informed about: [Exalted] Poaching? 

usiel RemoveThis @vampirethemasquerade.com wrote:
> Patrick Baldwin wrote:
>
>>So I've been re-reading Lunars, and the
>> discussion of the role of the shaman got
>> me wondering- do people who already have
>> a relationship with a god still get Exalted?
>>
>> As in, if I'm a shaman with a good relationship
>> with Father Oak, is Luna going to care about
>> that? Do you end up abandoning your old god
>> when Chosen by one of the Celestials, or do
>> you now have a duty to two different gods?
>>
>> And how much wrangling in Yu-Shan happens as
>> a result?
>>
>>~P.
>
> A Lunar doesn't really have a "duty" to Luna. Luna just sets the
> preferences for Exaltation with the Lunar spark.

Indeed, most of the Exalted have no duties to anyone. (Notable
exceptions are the Sidereals and Abyssals.) The Chosen were created for
a purpose, but that purpose has long since been fulfilled. Now Luna/the
Unconquered Sun/the Dragons/whomever doesn't squat on your shoulder and
make sure you are successfully overthrowing the Primordials; that is SO
two Ages ago. Now the gods are usually happy if you don't interrupt
their cosmic LAN party up in Yu-Shan.

> The main
> transformation that takes place is that a Lunar Exalt can now see
> further "behind the curtain," so to speak. He knows that his old
> shamanistic relationship with the Oak is one of the lower rungs in a
> big political system. The old rules of his shamanistic relationship
> don't apply because the Lunar is now a semidivine culture hero himself.
>
> A powerful god might try to keep the same old arrangement (or something
> like it) around, but it's a dangerous game for it.
>
> Also, remember that shamanism isn't the same as out and out worship. A
> priest might have a relationship based on sheer obedience, but a shaman
> usually tests what he can get away with under the rules of the
> relationship. Shamans know that gods are amoral and give them what they
> want to get stuff or avoid bad things.
>
> (Also: A "god" is more loosely defined than elsewhere. A shaman's
> patron can be a spirit, Exalt, Raksha or kickass ghost -- anything that
> has powers it can use for good or ill that wants to enter into a
> relationship with a shaman.)
>
> A Lunar usually discovers how limited the god is and the rules the god
> operates under and can affect them as far as the circumstances will
> allow. In many cases it might end up with: "Look, now I'm a god too. I
> can either oppose you or we can come to some sort of cooperative
> relationship. Let's team up, subdue yonder tribe and split the
> winnings."

Exactly. A Lunar will rapidly equal or surpass the power of most little
gods, and if the little god in question is smart, she will realize this.
Better to have a reliable ally than an untrustworthy servant.
--
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Richard Clayton
"During wars laws are silent." -- Cicero
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Patrick Baldwin wrote:
> usiel DeleteThis @vampirethemasquerade.com wrote:
>
>>Patrick Baldwin wrote:
>>
>>>So I've been re-reading Lunars, and the
>>> discussion of the role of the shaman got
>>> me wondering- do people who already have
>>> a relationship with a god still get Exalted?
>>>
>>> As in, if I'm a shaman with a good relationship
>>> with Father Oak, is Luna going to care about
>>> that? Do you end up abandoning your old god
>>> when Chosen by one of the Celestials, or do
>>> you now have a duty to two different gods?
>>>
>>> And how much wrangling in Yu-Shan happens as
>>> a result?
>>>
>>>~P.
>
>>A Lunar doesn't really have a "duty" to Luna. Luna just sets the
>>preferences for Exaltation with the Lunar spark.
>
> Really? Does Luna think that?

The corebook explicitly states that Luna asks little of her Chosen, and
offers less.

> What about the Unconquered
> Sun? If during the Primordial war a Solar had decided
> "you know what, screw this, I'm going on vacation", would
> the Unconquered Sun be OK with that? I mean sure, the
> Solars went all crazy at the end, but it seems like there's
> a good chance he was too absorbed in the Games of Divinity
> to really notice by that point.

During the Primordial War this would certainly have been a problem. But
as I said in another post, the purpose for which the Exalted were
created has been fulfilled. The war is over, Heaven has been invaded,
the Primordials overthrown; now the gods are enjoying the spoils and
just want those crazy-powerful and dangerously insane Exalted to stay
out of Yu-Shan (and the Jade Pleasure Dome especially).

> Do the Celestials really expect *nothing* from those
> they Choose?

At the end of the First Age, the Sidereals conspired to murder the
Solars, the Solars were slain to the last man, the Dragon-Blooded
participated in the slaughter, and the Lunars mostly stood aside while
it happened and fled afterward. None of the Incarnae involved seemed to
care much.

>>The main
>>transformation that takes place is that a Lunar Exalt can now see
>>further "behind the curtain," so to speak. He knows that his old
>>shamanistic relationship with the Oak is one of the lower rungs in a
>>big political system. The old rules of his shamanistic relationship
>>don't apply because the Lunar is now a semidivine culture hero himself.
>
> Thatcertainly meshes with other bits I've read- becoming
> an Exalt seems to be the ultimate breaker of ties, whether
> you're a Chayan, a citizen of Paragon, or, apparently,
> a shaman.
>
>>A powerful god might try to keep the same old arrangement (or something
>>like it) around, but it's a dangerous game for it.
>
> Why? I mean, if the Exalt is happy with something like the
> old arrangment, that seems like it wouldn't be a problem.

A Lunar Exalt might initially be content to maintain the system of
bargaining and chiminage, but once she realizes her power is beginning
to rival her patron deities, she might want to renegotiate her contract.
Though, of course, if she is content with servitude, she could certainly
continue to do so. Trying to force a Lunar into servitude would be
dangerous, however-- don't forget that the Exalted are among the few
entities in Creation that can kill gods *permanently.*

>>Also, remember that shamanism isn't the same as out and out worship. A
>>priest might have a relationship based on sheer obedience, but a shaman
>>usually tests what he can get away with under the rules of the
>>relationship. Shamans know that gods are amoral and give them what they
>>want to get stuff or avoid bad things.
>
> The distinction between shaman and priest is an important
> one, and one I wasn't really thinking of. What about
> priests, then? Particularly ones of powerful gods
> with deep connectiosn to them, like the Brides of Ahlat?

Ultimately it's up to the StoryTeller, the PC, and the needs of the
story. Ahlat is a bad mofo, even by the standards of gods, but a Circle
of experienced Lunars or Solars could take him down. Once again: Better
a reliable ally than an untrustworthy servant.
--
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Richard Clayton
"During wars laws are silent." -- Cicero
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Richard Clayton <rZIGeclaZIGyton RemoveThis @verizon.net> wrote:
Patrick Baldwin wrote:
>> usiel RemoveThis @vampirethemasquerade.com wrote:
>>
>>>Patrick Baldwin wrote:
>>>

<SNIP>

>>>A Lunar doesn't really have a "duty" to Luna. Luna just sets the
>>>preferences for Exaltation with the Lunar spark.
>>
>> Really? Does Luna think that?

> The corebook explicitly states that Luna asks little of her Chosen, and
>offers less.

little != nothing

Clearly, Luna requires *something* from her Chosen, or
why bother to have them?

>> What about the Unconquered
>> Sun? If during the Primordial war a Solar had decided
>> "you know what, screw this, I'm going on vacation", would
>> the Unconquered Sun be OK with that? I mean sure, the
>> Solars went all crazy at the end, but it seems like there's
>> a good chance he was too absorbed in the Games of Divinity
>> to really notice by that point.

> During the Primordial War this would certainly have been a problem. But
>as I said in another post, the purpose for which the Exalted were
>created has been fulfilled. The war is over, Heaven has been invaded,
>the Primordials overthrown; now the gods are enjoying the spoils and
>just want those crazy-powerful and dangerously insane Exalted to stay
>out of Yu-Shan (and the Jade Pleasure Dome especially).

So why keep the process going? If all you want the Exalts
to do is not mess with the LAN party, why keep Exalting
people? Why not just tuck those Exalted Essences away
for a rainy day?

Or are the gods so caught up in the Games of Divinity
they can't or won't spend the time to turn off their
Eaxalted autoresponder?

>> Do the Celestials really expect *nothing* from those
>> they Choose?

> At the end of the First Age, the Sidereals conspired to murder the
>Solars, the Solars were slain to the last man, the Dragon-Blooded
>participated in the slaughter, and the Lunars mostly stood aside while
>it happened and fled afterward. None of the Incarnae involved seemed to
>care much.

Indeed. But was it because they were too distracted by the
Games, were allowing the various Chosen to exercise their
free will, or was it important things shook out the way
the did for some ineffable godly reason?


<SNIP>
>>
>>>A powerful god might try to keep the same old arrangement (or something
>>>like it) around, but it's a dangerous game for it.
>>
>> Why? I mean, if the Exalt is happy with something like the
>> old arrangment, that seems like it wouldn't be a problem.

> A Lunar Exalt might initially be content to maintain the system of
>bargaining and chiminage, but once she realizes her power is beginning
>to rival her patron deities, she might want to renegotiate her contract.
>Though, of course, if she is content with servitude, she could certainly
>continue to do so. Trying to force a Lunar into servitude would be
>dangerous, however-- don't forget that the Exalted are among the few
>entities in Creation that can kill gods *permanently.*

Certainly- although that is yet another argument for keeping
up some sort of relationship, if possible. Having an ally/servant
that can actually directly kill your rivals sure sounds handy.

The carrot is really the only reasonable way to deal with
your newly Exalted shaman though. If you try the stick,
one day it just won't be big enough anymore.

~P.
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Patrick Baldwin wrote:

> little != nothing

> Clearly, Luna requires *something* from her Chosen, or
> why bother to have them?

The will to survive. Luna asks of her children the will to survive.
That's about it.

> So why keep the process going? If all you want the Exalts
> to do is not mess with the LAN party, why keep Exalting
> people? Why not just tuck those Exalted Essences away
> for a rainy day?

> Or are the gods so caught up in the Games of Divinity
> they can't or won't spend the time to turn off their
> Eaxalted autoresponder?

You've missed an important element of the setting.

The gods /can't/ stop people from Exalting. When they created their
Chosen, they summoned up what they now can't put down. Even the
Unconquered Sun, when he turned his face from the world some time before
the Usurpation, didn't turn off Solar Exaltation -- it kept going
without him.

Lytek, the god of exaltation, can guide the process somewhat, but it'd
even continue if he were slain... just in a slightly more chaotic fashion.

(This makes a lot of sense -- the Incarna would be much deader at the
moment if the Primordials had been able to get rid of the Exalts by
merely killing their patron gods. Likewise, if Lytek is necessary for
Exaltation, then the Primordials would have just killed him and been
done with it.)

Presumably Luna keeps tabs on her Chosen because she wants to, but if
she stopped, they'd keep getting made.

There are hints that much of First Age politics was keeping the Exalted
distracted so they wouldn't turn their jealous eyes to Heaven. Geoff
once said that the Usurpation was motivated primarily by the
realization, on the part of the Sidereals and Dragon-Blooded, that the
Solars were beginning to ask questions like "What do we need of gods and
mortals and any worlds beyond those which we create?" and realizing the
answers were "We don't."

> Indeed. But was it because they were too distracted by the
> Games, were allowing the various Chosen to exercise their
> free will, or was it important things shook out the way
> the did for some ineffable godly reason?

A little from column A, a little from column B. And a little from column
C: They were relieved, because with the Solars gone, the chance of a
group of Exalts successfully storming Heaven, putting every god to the
sword, and stealing the Games of Divinity for themselves was
significantly lessened.

Mind you, the books seem to imply that fear aside, the Incarna really
are proud of their Chosen, so there's probably some mixed emotion there.
The non-Incarna gods were more fearful.

> Certainly- although that is yet another argument for keeping
> up some sort of relationship, if possible. Having an ally/servant
> that can actually directly kill your rivals sure sounds handy.

> The carrot is really the only reasonable way to deal with
> your newly Exalted shaman though. If you try the stick,
> one day it just won't be big enough anymore.

Yep.

The original question, "Can a shaman or priest be Exalted, or does that
violate the metaphysics of the setting?" is backwards, BTW. The question
is "Would it be fun to play a shaman or priest of a lesser god who's now
been Exalted by a greater one?"

The answer is "Yes," so of course the setting is built so metaphysics
and celestial politics make it possible.
--
Stephenls
Geek
"You do your arguments no favor by insulting those you ought persuade."
-Greg Stolze, Rites of the Dragon
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