Where is Drunken Boxing in 4E?

David Johnston wrote:
> <peter.DeleteThis@sagatafl.invalid> wrote:
[...]
>>All I can find is some kind of style perk to turn intoxication penalties
>>into bonuses. Nothing else.
>
> What else do you need? "Drunken" moves aren't all that different from
> the regular kind are they?

Actually, that's what I think they do. Ben Finney seems to be on the
right track...

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
 >> Stay informed about: Where is Drunken Boxing in 4E? 

Peter Knutsen <peter.TakeThisOut@sagatafl.invalid> writes:

> The new GURPS Martial Arts just arrived, and I've read a couple
> dozen pages and sections already, as well as perused the list of
> arts, but I can't find Drunken Boxing anywhere,

You could be referring to one of two things:

Fighting while intoxicated, yet getting a bonus due to familiarity:
that's covered on Martial Arts p. 50, the "Drunken Fighting" cinematic
perk.

Zui Quan <URL:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zui_Quan> style, which
merely *imitates* the movements of an intoxicated person, and
presumably doesn't *really* give a bonus to fighting while
intoxicated.

I've only rarely seen Zui Quan called "Drunken Boxing" (and a web
search turned up very few matches for that term). Far more common is
"Drunken Fighting", or (from a literal translation of 醉拳 Zuì Quán)
"Drunken Fist".

> All I can find is some kind of style perk to turn intoxication
> penalties into bonuses. Nothing else.

Presumably, then, you're not interested in the "Drunken Fighting"
perk. I can only assume in that case that you're looking for the Zui
Quan fighting style.

> I thought perhaps Drunken Boxing had been classified as a Kung Fu
> variant

According to the Wikipedia page, it's a sub-style of Wushu. Since
Martial Arts already covers Wushu as a style (Martial Arts pp.
206-207), it seems best to tweak that to get what you want, as you
might do with any other Wushu variant.

If, of course, you *also* want to grant a bonus to fighters who have
learned to fight more effectively while drunk, the "Drunken Fighting"
cinematic perk can be learned.

--
\ "I was stopped by the police for speeding; they said 'Don't you |
`\ know the speed limit is 55 miles an hour?' I said 'Yeah I know, |
_o__) but I wasn't going to be out that long.'" -- Steven Wright |
Ben Finney
 >> Stay informed about: Where is Drunken Boxing in 4E? 

Ben Finney wrote:
> Peter Knutsen <peter.DeleteThis@sagatafl.invalid> writes:
>>The new GURPS Martial Arts just arrived, and I've read a couple
>>dozen pages and sections already, as well as perused the list of
>>arts, but I can't find Drunken Boxing anywhere,
>
> You could be referring to one of two things:
>
> Fighting while intoxicated, yet getting a bonus due to familiarity:
> that's covered on Martial Arts p. 50, the "Drunken Fighting" cinematic
> perk.

Yup, the book covers that, so I'm referring to Zui Quan.

> Zui Quan <URL:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zui_Quan> style, which
> merely *imitates* the movements of an intoxicated person, and
> presumably doesn't *really* give a bonus to fighting while
> intoxicated.

Yes.

> I've only rarely seen Zui Quan called "Drunken Boxing" (and a web
> search turned up very few matches for that term). Far more common is
> "Drunken Fighting", or (from a literal translation of 醉拳 Zuì Quán)
> "Drunken Fist".

That's what I thought a year or two ago, but then I decided that Drunken
Boxing was probably the most common name.

>>All I can find is some kind of style perk to turn intoxication
>>penalties into bonuses. Nothing else.
>
> Presumably, then, you're not interested in the "Drunken Fighting"
> perk. I can only assume in that case that you're looking for the Zui
> Quan fighting style.

Yes.

>>I thought perhaps Drunken Boxing had been classified as a Kung Fu
>>variant
>
> According to the Wikipedia page, it's a sub-style of Wushu. Since
> Martial Arts already covers Wushu as a style (Martial Arts pp.
> 206-207), it seems best to tweak that to get what you want, as you
> might do with any other Wushu variant.
[...]

But I'm not exactly sure what I want to do, and kinds of bonuses would
be appropriate. I'm not an expert on tweaking the GURPS combat system.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
 >> Stay informed about: Where is Drunken Boxing in 4E? 

Peter Knutsen <peter RemoveThis @sagatafl.invalid> writes:

> Ben Finney wrote:
> > According to the Wikipedia page, it's a sub-style of Wushu. Since
> > Martial Arts already covers Wushu as a style (Martial Arts pp.
> > 206-207), it seems best to tweak that to get what you want, as you
> > might do with any other Wushu variant.
> [...]
>
> But I'm not exactly sure what I want to do

Then I'm not sure what you want us to advise

--
\ "If you write the word 'monkey' a million times, do you start |
`\ to think you're Shakespeare?" -- Steven Wright |
_o__) |
Ben Finney
 >> Stay informed about: Where is Drunken Boxing in 4E? 

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 08:49:13 +1100, Ben Finney
<bignose+hates-spam@benfinney.id.au> wrote:

>Peter Knutsen <peter DeleteThis @sagatafl.invalid> writes:
>
>> Ben Finney wrote:
>> > According to the Wikipedia page, it's a sub-style of Wushu. Since
>> > Martial Arts already covers Wushu as a style (Martial Arts pp.
>> > 206-207), it seems best to tweak that to get what you want, as you
>> > might do with any other Wushu variant.
>> [...]
>>
>> But I'm not exactly sure what I want to do
>
>Then I'm not sure what you want us to advise

I would have to see what the cinematic rules allowed, but I would add
a bonus from the characters acting skill less than the cinematic (real
drunkenness) allowed.
--

Grant
 >> Stay informed about: Where is Drunken Boxing in 4E? 

Ben Finney wrote:
> Peter Knutsen <peter.RemoveThis@sagatafl.invalid> writes:
>>Ben Finney wrote:
>>>According to the Wikipedia page, it's a sub-style of Wushu. Since
>>>Martial Arts already covers Wushu as a style (Martial Arts pp.
>>>206-207), it seems best to tweak that to get what you want, as you
>>>might do with any other Wushu variant.
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>But I'm not exactly sure what I want to do
>
>
> Then I'm not sure what you want us to advise

The main problem is that I don't know what one can safely do with the
GURPS rules without shattering all game balance. Drunken Boxing is about
using unpredictable moves to confuse and befuddle the enemy, so that one
can defeat him easily.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
 >> Stay informed about: Where is Drunken Boxing in 4E? 

In article <47372665$0$21933$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>,
Peter Knutsen <peter.RemoveThis@sagatafl.invalid> wrote:
>The main problem is that I don't know what one can safely do with the
>GURPS rules without shattering all game balance. Drunken Boxing is about
>using unpredictable moves to confuse and befuddle the enemy, so that one
>can defeat him easily.

Use Deceptive Attack and Feint for this. For Feint, a Ruse (Martial
Arts p.101) might be the most suitable.

Cheers,
Bent D
--
Bent Dalager - bcd.RemoveThis@pvv.org - http://www.pvv.org/~bcd
powered by emacs
 >> Stay informed about: Where is Drunken Boxing in 4E? 

Bent C Dalager wrote:
> Peter Knutsen <peter RemoveThis @sagatafl.invalid> wrote:
>>The main problem is that I don't know what one can safely do with the
>>GURPS rules without shattering all game balance. Drunken Boxing is about
>>using unpredictable moves to confuse and befuddle the enemy, so that one
>>can defeat him easily.
>
> Use Deceptive Attack and Feint for this. For Feint, a Ruse (Martial
> Arts p.101) might be the most suitable.

Anyone can do that!

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
 >> Stay informed about: Where is Drunken Boxing in 4E? 

In article <47372d91$0$7603$157c6196@dreader2.cybercity.dk>,
Peter Knutsen <peter.TakeThisOut@sagatafl.invalid> wrote:
>Bent C Dalager wrote:
>>
>> Use Deceptive Attack and Feint for this. For Feint, a Ruse (Martial
>> Arts p.101) might be the most suitable.
>
>Anyone can do that!

Of course. There is nothing magical about acting drunk that makes this
a considerably better bluff than most other ruses. At best, you might
inflict Surprise on your target after your first strike if he expected
nothing of the sort. This can be devastating enough if he's not battle
hardened.

You might also be interested in the box on Martial Arts p.101 "Feints
Using Non-Combat Skills" for how to adapt e.g. Acting skill to
feinting. This is sufficiently unusual that it might only be available
through a Drunken Fighting type martial arts style.

Cheers,
Bent D
--
Bent Dalager - bcd.TakeThisOut@pvv.org - http://www.pvv.org/~bcd
powered by emacs
 >> Stay informed about: Where is Drunken Boxing in 4E? 

Bent C Dalager wrote:
> Peter Knutsen <peter DeleteThis @sagatafl.invalid> wrote:
>>Bent C Dalager wrote:
>>>Use Deceptive Attack and Feint for this. For Feint, a Ruse (Martial
>>>Arts p.101) might be the most suitable.
>>
>>Anyone can do that!
>
>
> Of course. There is nothing magical about acting drunk that makes this
> a considerably better bluff than most other ruses. At best, you might

I'm not asking for a *magical* way to make a character better at this
specific thing.

I'm asking for a way to *spend* *points* to make a character better at
this specific thing.

A crucial difference.

> inflict Surprise on your target after your first strike if he expected
> nothing of the sort. This can be devastating enough if he's not battle
> hardened.
>
> You might also be interested in the box on Martial Arts p.101 "Feints
> Using Non-Combat Skills" for how to adapt e.g. Acting skill to
> feinting. This is sufficiently unusual that it might only be available
> through a Drunken Fighting type martial arts style.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
 >> Stay informed about: Where is Drunken Boxing in 4E? 

In article <47373a2c$0$21932$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>,
Peter Knutsen <peter DeleteThis @sagatafl.invalid> wrote:
>
>I'm asking for a way to *spend* *points* to make a character better at
>this specific thing.

Why didn't you say so right away? You spend points on Brawling,
Boxing, Wrestling, Judo or Karate - depending on your preference.
Adding the Feint technique seems like a good idea also.

Cheers,
Bent D
--
Bent Dalager - bcd DeleteThis @pvv.org - http://www.pvv.org/~bcd
powered by emacs
 >> Stay informed about: Where is Drunken Boxing in 4E? 

On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:30:34 +0000 (UTC), bcd.DeleteThis@pvv.ntnu.no (Bent C
Dalager) wrote:

>In article <47373a2c$0$21932$157c6196@dreader1.cybercity.dk>,
>Peter Knutsen <peter.DeleteThis@sagatafl.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>I'm asking for a way to *spend* *points* to make a character better at
>>this specific thing.
>
>Why didn't you say so right away? You spend points on Brawling,
>Boxing, Wrestling, Judo or Karate - depending on your preference.
>Adding the Feint technique seems like a good idea also.

Mandatory, I'd say for the Drunken Fist approach, since it's all about
deceptive movement.
 >> Stay informed about: Where is Drunken Boxing in 4E? 

Peter Knutsen <peter.RemoveThis@sagatafl.invalid> writes:

> Bent C Dalager wrote:
> > Peter Knutsen <peter.RemoveThis@sagatafl.invalid> wrote:
> >> The main problem is that I don't know what one can safely do with
> >> the GURPS rules without shattering all game balance. Drunken Boxing
> >> is about using unpredictable moves to confuse and befuddle the
> >> enemy, so that one can defeat him easily.
> >
> > Use Deceptive Attack and Feint for this. For Feint, a Ruse (Martial
> > Arts p.101) might be the most suitable.
>
> Anyone can do that!

Well, yes. Those maneuvers are intended to cover many different
effects. Use them, and describe the combatant staggering "drunkenly"
to put off their opponent and get the bonus granted by the maneuver.

If you want a character to get better at such maneuvers, improve the
combat skills they're using when they perform those maneuvers.

A large part of a "style" in GURPS terms is not so much what the
character is *good at*, but rather is what moves they *prefer*,
because they've been taught a way to make them effective.

There's a continuum of "learned effectiveness" in the GURPS
rules. From very broad to very specific: you can improve the
underlying attribute (DX or IQ, normally), you can improve the Skill,
you can improve a specialisation of the Skill, you can improve a
specific Technique on the skill, you can buy a Perk for very
circumstance-specific bonuses, or you can just show a preference for
an effective move without spending points on it.

That continuum is also, by design, in order from most expensive to
least expensive in terms of character points. Yes, *anyone* with
sufficiently high combat skill can choose the "accept a penalty to
impose a penalty" maneuvers; but different schools and styles will
teach different *implementations* of those maneuvers.

In terms of the GURPS rules, it's a special effect — which is not to
say it's meaningless! If the character is built around the concept of
being skilled in a particular style, it's an extremely important
opportunity to look cool: describe the character's Zui Quan moves
instead of just naming the chosen GURPS combat maneuver.

--
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`\ Valentine, senior vice-president of Microsoft Windows |
_o__) development, 2002 |
Ben Finney
 >> Stay informed about: Where is Drunken Boxing in 4E?