Dirty Spellcaster Tricks

In article <slrneacju9.2o0.keith.davies RemoveThis @kjdavies.org>,
keith.davies RemoveThis @kjdavies.org says...

> >> [1] IMC everyone starts with one immediate action per round. Attacks
> >> of opportunity are now immediate actions, and Combat Reflexes has
> >> been changed to allow an additional immediate action per round.
> >
> > Does that mean that a character with Combat Reflexes could unload
> > multiple immediate/swift action spells? That makes Combat Reflexes
> > *really* tasty for some people...
>
> It does, a little -- not as much as you might think (unless I've
> missed something).
>
> Combat Reflexes gives only *one* additional immediate action, rather
> than bDex additional immediate actions.

Ah, so.

> And an AoO is now an
> immediate action (as is evasion, as are some other things I don't
> remember right now).
>
> Thinking about it more, I'm somewhat tempted to put either Dex or BAB
> prereqs on 'Improved Combat Reflexes" and "Greater Combat Reflexes".

I couldn't find those on your webpage... do they grant each another one
immediate action, or more?


--
Jasin Zujovic
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Keith Davies wrote:
> Jasin Zujovic <jzujovic DeleteThis @inet.hr> wrote:
>> In article <4ghe0lF1n6lmiU1 DeleteThis @individual.net>,
>> markATmarkdbDOTplusDOTcom DeleteThis @address.invalid says...
>>
>>>> After one full circle the PC will try to catch hold of the corridor
>>>> ceiling
>>>> or the others throw a rope for him to catch.
>>>> What would be the DC for such stunts?
>>>
>>> Catching the ledge is very tricky. The rules for a falling character
>>> catching themselves are to use a Climb check at the surface's Climb
>>> DC +20. The ledge will count as "An overhang or ceiling with
>>> handholds but no footholds", so that's DC 45 in total, without
>>> taking into account the trickiness of actually getting across to
>>> the ledge before you fall past it.
>>
>> I think the "overhang or ceiling" DC is supposed to be used when
>> you're trying to move across a ceiling hanging by your arms. I mean,
>> it's the most difficult one in the table; I don't think climbing a
>> ledge is supposed to be that difficult.
>
> Under the circumstances I *wouldn't* count this as 'ceiling' because
> gravity's going the other way (if it weren't, it wouldn't hurt when
> you hit it, yes?). In this case you're *actually* trying to catch
> yourself and keep from rolling and sliding out of the reverse gravity
> area. I might put a penalty (-2, circumstance) because you're
> probably not expecting 'down' to be 'above you'.

The check in question isn't to catch yourself sliding across the ceiling,
but to catch the lintel of the door as you fall upwards past it.

I agree with Jasin that I was probably being a bit too harsh using the
'overhang' DC, but on the other hand I didn't put in any modifiers for the
disorientation of having to make the attempt just after you're flipped
upside down by the reverse gravity field.

--�
Mark.
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Keith Davies wrote:
> Jasin Zujovic <jzujovic RemoveThis @inet.hr> wrote:
> > In article <slrneacju9.2o0.keith.davies RemoveThis @kjdavies.org>,
> > keith.davies RemoveThis @kjdavies.org says...
> >
> >> >> [1] IMC everyone starts with one immediate action per round. Attacks
> >> >> of opportunity are now immediate actions, and Combat Reflexes has
> >> >> been changed to allow an additional immediate action per round.
> >> >
> >> > Does that mean that a character with Combat Reflexes could unload
> >> > multiple immediate/swift action spells? That makes Combat Reflexes
> >> > *really* tasty for some people...
> >>
> >> It does, a little -- not as much as you might think (unless I've
> >> missed something).
> >>
> >> Combat Reflexes gives only *one* additional immediate action, rather
> >> than bDex additional immediate actions.
> >
> > Ah, so.
> >
> >> And an AoO is now an
> >> immediate action (as is evasion, as are some other things I don't
> >> remember right now).
> >>
> >> Thinking about it more, I'm somewhat tempted to put either Dex or BAB
> >> prereqs on 'Improved Combat Reflexes" and "Greater Combat Reflexes".
> >
> > I couldn't find those on your webpage... do they grant each another one
> > immediate action, or more?
>
> Each still grants one. On my site, Combat Reflexes can be taken more
> than once and stacks. I was considering splitting this feat into
> several so that increasing the number of immediate actions get
> progressively harder (higher prereqs for each succeeding feat). I
> might not; spending three feats to get three additional immediate
> actions is probably expensive enough, without requiring higher Dex. I
> may want to keep either BAB or base Reflex as prereqs... except that
> using base Reflex means that Fighters -- the guys who presumably have
> the most experience fighting -- lag behind several other classes for
> getting these feats. I haven't decided if this is bad (because the
> most experienced combatants should be faster in a fight) or good
> (because it means that Rogues and the like -- guys who are supposed to
> react quickly to things -- can do this more often).
>
> Meh. I'm inclined to leave it as is. OTOH, it's almost 5am, and I
> need sleep....

Consider giving one additional Immediate Action for free for characters
when they get Evasion (otherwise you are slightly nerfing the ability),
and one extra for any caster with Quicken Spell and at least one level
5+ spell/day. Then you can base the Feat prerequisites on BAB without
worrying about nerfing the Rogues or Casters too much.

DougL
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Long ago, in a galaxy far, far away, Keith Davies wrote:

> using base Reflex means that Fighters -- the guys who presumably have
> the most experience fighting -- lag behind several other classes for
> getting these feats. I haven't decided if this is bad (because the
> most experienced combatants should be faster in a fight) or good
> (because it means that Rogues and the like -- guys who are supposed to
> react quickly to things -- can do this more often).

> Meh. I'm inclined to leave it as is. OTOH, it's almost 5am, and I
> need sleep....

How about either/or? Either BAB -or- base Ref for further ImmAct's.
This means that both speedster-PC's and weaponmaster-PC's can get in
on the fun, albeit their "color-text" about the ability may be a bit
different...

FWIW, I'd consider seriously breaking away from "AoO is an Immediate
Action" paradigm -- if you can take *ANY* Immediate Action, that "feels"
to me more like a Rogue/Reflex trick. Immediate *combat* action, that
feels to me like a Fighter/BAB trick.

Maybe make parallel "Combat Reflex" feats -- call one "Combat Reflexes"
and make it Reflex-based, and lets you take *ANY* Immediate action; call
the other "Combat Reaction" and make it BAB-based: it requires your
Immediate Action to be either an offensive or defensive combat-oriented
maneuver. Allow 'em to stack, so someone with big Reflex save + big BAB
can have both kinds of options available. Since the Reflex-oriented one
is a bit better (giving more options), make it a bit harder / higher-level
to qualify for -- Ftr-types will get theirs a bit sooner, and be yet more
dangerous in-combat, whereas Rogues will become yet more versatile when
they get THEIRS.

If you wanted to differentiate them yet further, you might prohibit the
Reflex-based Immediate Action from being any direct Attack... then you
might let the Rogues get THEIRS first.

Just some thoughts...


--

Steve Saunders
to de-spam me, de-capitalize me
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On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 20:16:09 -0700, Loren Pechtel
<lorenpechtel.DeleteThis@hotmail.invalid.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:33:53 -0500, Erol K. Bayburt
><ErolB1.DeleteThis@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>One trick I used back in the 1e days were big glass bulbs full of
>>knockout-gas potion. On each bulb I cast a *magic mouth*, programmed
>>to sing a glass-shattering high note when an appropriate triggering
>>condition was met.
>>
>>I actually created and used this one *as a player* rather than as a
>>DM.
>
>As a DM I wouldn't allow this. You're going to have to sing that note
>when you cast the spell--and there goes your bulb!

Good point, but easy to bypass. Put the spell on before the bulb is
filled and sealed.

Why will this solve it? Because you can fill the bulb with sand and
embed it in sand so that just enough for the spellcasting is visible.
The sand will absorb the vibration, and the bulb will survive.


Or, just cast the spell on the stopper before you seal the bulb.
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On 26 Jun 2006 15:59:31 -0700, "decalod85" <decalod85 DeleteThis @comcast.net>
wrote:

>Any other dirty tricks along these lines....?

A long time ago (2nd ed.), I panicked a hill giant by using Wizard
Eye. It's invisible but material, so I kept tapping him with it. You
keep on getting touched by something damp and warm, on your shoulder,
back of your neck, your cheek... see how long you stay calm.
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On 28 Jun 2006 10:12:41 -0700, "Bill Wayne" <HWayne.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:

>-If you can balance of a wall of force, create one and another slightly
>above and to the front. You can balance on the first and fire arrows
>between the slit, but it would be difficult for others to fire back.

I long since ruled that Wall of Force is zero thickness. The edge is
very useful for slicing salami, or iron bars, or charging Fighters.

Wall of Force is a very useful industrial spell. You can use it to
slice almost anything, you can use it to make optically flat surfaces
(flat or hemispherical), or (if the DM allows cylindrical forms)
mirror-polished columns... all sorts of uses.

An important thing to remember about Wall of Force is that it's also
totally frictionless. This has additional uses, especially when you
research a Level 6 version that allows variable shapes and positions.
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<keith.davies RemoveThis @kjdavies.org> wrote:
>Jasin Zujovic <jzujovic RemoveThis @inet.hr> wrote:
>> keith.davies RemoveThis @kjdavies.org says...
>>
>>> [1] IMC everyone starts with one immediate action per round. Attacks
>>> of opportunity are now immediate actions, and Combat Reflexes has
>>> been changed to allow an additional immediate action per round.
>>
>> Does that mean that a character with Combat Reflexes could unload
>> multiple immediate/swift action spells? That makes Combat Reflexes
>> *really* tasty for some people...
>
>It does, a little -- not as much as you might think (unless I've
>missed something).
>
>Combat Reflexes gives only *one* additional immediate action, rather
>than bDex additional immediate actions. And an AoO is now an
>immediate action (as is evasion, as are some other things I don't
>remember right now).

So a person with 18 Dex and Combat Reflexes in your campaign can only
do 2 AoOs now? Sorta takes the fun out of the feat, doesn't it?
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On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:32:30 +0100, "Mark Blunden"
<markATmarkdbDOTplusDOTcom DeleteThis @address.invalid> wrote:
>You can also make the trap a lot more vicious by including something like a
>Wall of Fire or Blade Barrier, which the victim must fall through each
>cycle.

But I want my hamburger *rare*, not well-done.
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On Tue, 04 Jul 2006 00:05:04 GMT, gobble RemoveThis @degook.com (Ken Andrews)
wrote:

>On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 20:16:09 -0700, Loren Pechtel
><lorenpechtel RemoveThis @hotmail.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:33:53 -0500, Erol K. Bayburt
>><ErolB1 RemoveThis @comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>One trick I used back in the 1e days were big glass bulbs full of
>>>knockout-gas potion. On each bulb I cast a *magic mouth*, programmed
>>>to sing a glass-shattering high note when an appropriate triggering
>>>condition was met.
>>>
>>>I actually created and used this one *as a player* rather than as a
>>>DM.
>>
>>As a DM I wouldn't allow this. You're going to have to sing that note
>>when you cast the spell--and there goes your bulb!
>
>Good point, but easy to bypass. Put the spell on before the bulb is
>filled and sealed.
>
>Why will this solve it? Because you can fill the bulb with sand and
>embed it in sand so that just enough for the spellcasting is visible.
>The sand will absorb the vibration, and the bulb will survive.
>
>
>Or, just cast the spell on the stopper before you seal the bulb.

Agreed, it can be worked around. There's numerous ways of damping it
during casting.
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In article <44a9b80d.1360017796@shawnews>, gobble.RemoveThis@degook.com says...

> >Combat Reflexes gives only *one* additional immediate action, rather
> >than bDex additional immediate actions. And an AoO is now an
> >immediate action (as is evasion, as are some other things I don't
> >remember right now).
>
> So a person with 18 Dex and Combat Reflexes in your campaign can only
> do 2 AoOs now? Sorta takes the fun out of the feat, doesn't it?

But he can also use that additional "AoO" (immediate action, actually)
to use Evasion in the same round as taking that first AoO, or use
Evasion against both of the fireballs he gets hit with in the round.

Keith's rule does take a bit of fun out of reach weapons, perhaps, which
only care about AoOs.

But then, I'd be amazed if Keith didn't have a feat that did something
for reach weapons (or at least have plans for it in the future).

See, Keith's rules are... D&D BE. If you squint pretty hard, you might
mistake them for 3E, but they aren't really the same.


--
Jasin Zujovic
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On Tue, 04 Jul 2006 00:27:32 GMT, gobble.DeleteThis@degook.com (Ken Andrews)
raised a finger to the sky and proclaimed:

>On 28 Jun 2006 10:12:41 -0700, "Bill Wayne" <HWayne.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>-If you can balance of a wall of force, create one and another slightly
>>above and to the front. You can balance on the first and fire arrows
>>between the slit, but it would be difficult for others to fire back.
>
>I long since ruled that Wall of Force is zero thickness. The edge is
>very useful for slicing salami, or iron bars, or charging Fighters.
>
>Wall of Force is a very useful industrial spell. You can use it to
>slice almost anything, you can use it to make optically flat surfaces
>(flat or hemispherical), or (if the DM allows cylindrical forms)
>mirror-polished columns... all sorts of uses.
>
>An important thing to remember about Wall of Force is that it's also
>totally frictionless. This has additional uses, especially when you
>research a Level 6 version that allows variable shapes and positions.

I could have sworn the description says "a vertical plane".

--
Either way, I hate you Count Chocula, if I didn't already.
- Drifter Bob, rec.games.frp.dnd
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Ken Andrews wrote:
> On 26 Jun 2006 15:59:31 -0700, "decalod85" wrote:
>
> >Any other dirty tricks along these lines....?
>
> A long time ago (2nd ed.), I panicked a hill giant by using Wizard
> Eye. It's invisible but material, so I kept tapping him with it. You
> keep on getting touched by something damp and warm, on your shoulder,
> back of your neck, your cheek... see how long you stay calm.

In 1E, we used a human skull, red glass in the eye sockets, a Light
spell in the cranial cavity, and an Unseen Servant to carry it around.


Floating skulls with glowing red eyes will panick a lot of humanoids!
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