Demoralize: useless?

The Intimidate skill seems to be the poor cousin of Diplomacy. AFAICT,
anything Intimidate can do, Diplomacy can do too... and Diplomacy
doesn't require a contested roll, and can take you all the way to
Helpful, not just Friendly.

Intimidate does have one benefit over Diplomacy, though: it can be used
in combat, to demoralize an opponent.

"You can also use Intimidate to weaken an opponent's resolve in
combat. To do so, make an Intimidate check opposed by the target's
modified level check (level + Wis bonus, if any). If you win, the
target becomes shaken for 1 round. A shaken character takes a -2
penalty on attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws. You can
intimidate only an opponent that you threaten in melee combat and that
can see you."

You also get a +4 bonus for every size category you are bigger than
your opponent.

Okay, so... does anyone actually use this?

Assuming you have a decent Cha, and put max ranks into Intimidate as a
class skill, you should be around (your level +5) Intimidate. Assuming
the opponent is your size category, and doesn't have great Wis, you
should have about a 75% chance to shake him.

But using a skill is generally a standard action, so you're giving up
an attack. And the effect only lasts for one round. So, in a
one-on-one combat, this is useless.

The only time this makes sense is if the party is ganging up on an
opponent. However, if the opponent is around the party's level, then
he's outnumbered anyway. If he's significantly higher level -- the
boss wizard at the bottom of the dungeon, say -- then shaking him for a
round would be great, but (1) he's going to have more levels/hit dice
than the party, so the Intimidate check gets iffier, and (2) it's still
questionable whether this is better than just smacking him with a
sword. Especially since you have to be standing next to the bad guy
("threatening in melee combat") anyway.

Am I missing something? Does anyone use Demoralize in combat much? Or
is this pretty useless?


Waldo

Waldo wrote:
> The Intimidate skill seems to be the poor cousin of Diplomacy. AFAICT,
> anything Intimidate can do, Diplomacy can do too... and Diplomacy
> doesn't require a contested roll, and can take you all the way to
> Helpful, not just Friendly.
>
> Intimidate does have one benefit over Diplomacy, though: it can be used
> in combat, to demoralize an opponent.
>
> "You can also use Intimidate to weaken an opponent's resolve in
> combat. To do so, make an Intimidate check opposed by the target's
> modified level check (level + Wis bonus, if any). If you win, the
> target becomes shaken for 1 round. A shaken character takes a -2
> penalty on attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws. You can
> intimidate only an opponent that you threaten in melee combat and that
> can see you."
>
> You also get a +4 bonus for every size category you are bigger than
> your opponent.
>
> Okay, so... does anyone actually use this?
>
> Assuming you have a decent Cha, and put max ranks into Intimidate as a
> class skill, you should be around (your level +5) Intimidate. Assuming
> the opponent is your size category, and doesn't have great Wis, you
> should have about a 75% chance to shake him.
>
> But using a skill is generally a standard action, so you're giving up
> an attack. And the effect only lasts for one round. So, in a
> one-on-one combat, this is useless.
>
> The only time this makes sense is if the party is ganging up on an
> opponent. However, if the opponent is around the party's level, then
> he's outnumbered anyway. If he's significantly higher level -- the
> boss wizard at the bottom of the dungeon, say -- then shaking him for a
> round would be great, but (1) he's going to have more levels/hit dice
> than the party, so the Intimidate check gets iffier, and (2) it's still
> questionable whether this is better than just smacking him with a
> sword. Especially since you have to be standing next to the bad guy
> ("threatening in melee combat") anyway.
>
> Am I missing something? Does anyone use Demoralize in combat much? Or
> is this pretty useless?
>
>
> Waldo

Solution seems simple, instead of using demoralize as an action, treat
it as an effect of the first blow of combat (i.e. the first time you
hit someone make a demoralize check, after all getting hit can be
pretty intimidating\demoralizing.) as a free action. Then if the player
wants to make another attempt, then treat it as an action. (I would
rather say the first time you do Damage.)

First Blow->Automatic Intimidate Check->Automatic Demoralize Check then
as normal there after.

Does that work for ya?