Declaration of minion tap [LSJ]

LSJ wrote:
> Neil wrote:
>> One time I remember in a draft a guy played (I believe) "Enrage" with
>> one of
>> his vampires, intending to do the superior version ("Put this card on any
>> vampire. This vampire must burn 2 blood to attempt any action except for
>> hunting and actions to enter combat. Burn this card after resolving this
>> vampire's action.) he then realized that his minion only had inferior
>> presence, but others at the table said that he had played the card so
>> he had
>> to continue with the minor action ("Put this card on a vampire you
>> control.
>> This vampire has +1 strength and may enter combat with another minion
>> as a
>> (D) action. Burn this card at the end of this turn.). Afterwards, I
>> realized
>> that was probably not fair.
>
> Correct, without the "probably".
>
> It is not fair to take an illegal play and use it to remove the player
> from that choice in the game. The proper way to handle an illegal play
> when it is caught as it is made is: "That is not legal. Rewind to the
> pre-illegal state (i.e., pick up the played card) and try again."

And, depending on the situation, issue penalties (warnings, game losses,
etc) as necessary.

best -

chris

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In message <008d1480-8855-49a3-908e-10180548827e.DeleteThis@s12g2000prg.googlegroup
s.com>, devil_in_the_pale_moon_light.DeleteThis@yahoo.com writes:
>In your situation, it seems obvious the player is trying a new target
>because he knows one will not fly.

If a player can mis-speak in one situation - "I Unnatural Disaster your
KRCG, no wait, I mean that Alamut" - there is little stopping another
player jumping the gun and jumping in with an SR the moment it's out of
the player's lips.

When time is tight and tempers frayed, players can be very quick and
snarky.

--
James Coupe
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 >> Stay informed about: Declaration of minion tap [LSJ] 

devil_in_the_pale_moon_light.DeleteThis@yahoo.com wrote:
I don't want to win because I caught
> someone on a slip that worked to my advantage.

You know, philosophically, I agree with this. Sort of like "all people
are created equal".

However, in terms of VTES/(and other games), some people are better able
to concentrate under pressure than others. It seems to me that if we
let too many "legal" mistakes slide, it is penalizing those who have a
higher level of concentration skills, and unfairly giving benefit to
those who can't concentrate as well.

In the example given about the declaration of the minion tap, I wouldn't
let the person take it back if any other person at the table reacted in
*any* way, and certainly not if a card was played. If the change in
delcaration was made within microseconds, and no one moved or reacted in
such a way to give the declaring player some info, then I would most
likely let them take it back.

However, I don't like to judge much anymore, and maybe that's why...

best -

chris
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On Jan 31, 7:43 pm, reyda <true_re....DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dennis L (presence something) bleeds me.
> I block (with inferior celerity thingy).
> Nothing before range, close, no cards played yet.
> Dennis L plays majesty.
> I say "ok, i guess combat ends then".
> i added like two second after "wait, let me cycle this sideslip to dodge
> here"
> And something in the atmosphere just changed. I felt big stormy clouds
> gathering outside Paul's house. The air went electric when Deenis took
> an incredible gaze at me, like if i just insulted his mother twice. His
> jaw was a bit hanging and his eyes were just immense. "No, no..." he
> muttered. "You cannot do that ! the combat is over, you can't play your
> sideslip". Little i know that i have just met the taboo of LA's
> playground. "but, hey, come on it's just a sideslip !"
> Robert goudie's head made a quick rotation and i felt his cold stare
> from the armchair "the... combat... is... over..."
> At this point my neck was aching. I felt not confortable anymore. I
> rapidly looked at the other players, hoping some friendly support,
> waiting for someone to tell me something like "go and play your
> sideslip, it has absolutely ZERO impact on this combat anway".
> But instead, i just saw pity in everyone else's eye.
> I think i read some prophecy "this man here wants to cheat. and he
> insisted twice to play a combat card outside combat. bring out the
> hammer, the nails and raise the cross in the back yard."
>
> I blinked. "Of course, how silly i am ! playing a dodge after combat,
> hahaha, must be the jetlag, you know"
>
> Outside, the birds started chirping again. The sun came back and shone
> all day. I was safe from harm. I never played sideslip ever since. ^^

I can't see how anything was wrong with what you did. In fact, I'd go
so far as to say what they did was pretty illegal in terms of the
rules, as I can't see where you declared any strike - even though the
person plays a combat ends card, it doesn't restrict you from playing
any strike card you choose. Firstly, it's not even as if Dennis tried
to play a card before you declared a dodge, but even if he did, I
would've piped up and said, hey, you know, I still have a strike,
(even though it does nothing but cycle a card.) The players cannot
simply assume that because the acting minion played a S:CE that you
cannot play any cards after that.

Then again, if you said something along the lines of, "Ok, I guess
combat ends, YOUR GO" or something that denotes that you are passing
on playing any further cards (either reaction cards like fast
reactions or cat's guidance, or combat cards like your own strike or
taste of vitae). There's also a big difference IMO between declaring
that combat ends and that a combat is over, given the terminology of
the game.

Still, I often find that this kind of anality happens when one vocal
(and sore) player makes such a hard stance as a desperate ploy, and
then the person who felt the brunt of this gets infected with a
similar attitude, and when they get caught in a similar situation,
they also 'enforce' the rule, and so it spreads until a whole group
becomes unnecessarily anal about little finicky rules.

I'm glad our playgroup here doesn't stand for such anality, and we
joke about people that do. We're very lenient when it comes to that,
especially if it's a once/twice-off delay in an inconsequential part
of the game. Of course, someone making it a regular habit can expect
to be clamped down on (and it does happen), but often we let things
fly.
 >> Stay informed about: Declaration of minion tap [LSJ] 

devil_in_the_pale_moon_light.RemoveThis@yahoo.com a écrit :
> I don't want to win because I caught
> someone on a slip that worked to my advantage.

Thinking the same thing, but sometime errors are part of the game,
especially in the endgame where lack of concentration can lead to big
mistakes.
Changing your action after it is declared when it was perfectly legal,
is bad. Forcing player to play a card when there was something wrong
with disciplines is on the thin line, but i'd rather see the card back
in hand and correctly played (except of course if the card had a similar
effect in inferior or superior, eg Legal manipulations or Earthmeld)
 >> Stay informed about: Declaration of minion tap [LSJ] 

Robert Goudie a écrit :

>>The guys in LA play really tight.
>
>
> If by playing "tight" you mean that we don't let players make a second
> declaration. That's true, we don't.

Sometime, you just push it so far it's incredible.
first time i went to LA for a game, there was a scene like this.

Dennis L (presence something) bleeds me.
I block (with inferior celerity thingy).
Nothing before range, close, no cards played yet.
Dennis L plays majesty.
I say "ok, i guess combat ends then".
i added like two second after "wait, let me cycle this sideslip to dodge
here"
And something in the atmosphere just changed. I felt big stormy clouds
gathering outside Paul's house. The air went electric when Deenis took
an incredible gaze at me, like if i just insulted his mother twice. His
jaw was a bit hanging and his eyes were just immense. "No, no..." he
muttered. "You cannot do that ! the combat is over, you can't play your
sideslip". Little i know that i have just met the taboo of LA's
playground. "but, hey, come on it's just a sideslip !"
Robert goudie's head made a quick rotation and i felt his cold stare
from the armchair "the... combat... is... over..."
At this point my neck was aching. I felt not confortable anymore. I
rapidly looked at the other players, hoping some friendly support,
waiting for someone to tell me something like "go and play your
sideslip, it has absolutely ZERO impact on this combat anway".
But instead, i just saw pity in everyone else's eye.
I think i read some prophecy "this man here wants to cheat. and he
insisted twice to play a combat card outside combat. bring out the
hammer, the nails and raise the cross in the back yard."

I blinked. "Of course, how silly i am ! playing a dodge after combat,
hahaha, must be the jetlag, you know"

Outside, the birds started chirping again. The sun came back and shone
all day. I was safe from harm. I never played sideslip ever since. ^^
 >> Stay informed about: Declaration of minion tap [LSJ] 

"reyda" <true_reyda.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:47a2093e$0$18068$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-05.noos.net...
> first time i went to LA for a game, there was a scene like this.
>
> Dennis L (presence something) bleeds me.
> I block (with inferior celerity thingy).
> Nothing before range, close, no cards played yet.
> Dennis L plays majesty.
> I say "ok, i guess combat ends then".
> i added like two second after "wait, let me cycle this sideslip to dodge here"
> And something in the atmosphere just changed. I felt big stormy clouds gathering outside Paul's house. The air went electric when
> Deenis took an incredible gaze at me, like if i just insulted his mother twice. His jaw was a bit hanging and his eyes were just
> immense. "No, no..." he muttered. "You cannot do that ! the combat is over, you can't play your sideslip". Little i know that i
> have just met the taboo of LA's playground. "but, hey, come on it's just a sideslip !"
> Robert goudie's head made a quick rotation and i felt his cold stare from the armchair "the... combat... is... over..."
> At this point my neck was aching. I felt not confortable anymore. I rapidly looked at the other players, hoping some friendly
> support, waiting for someone to tell me something like "go and play your sideslip, it has absolutely ZERO impact on this combat
> anway".
> But instead, i just saw pity in everyone else's eye.
> I think i read some prophecy "this man here wants to cheat. and he insisted twice to play a combat card outside combat. bring out
> the hammer, the nails and raise the cross in the back yard."
>
> I blinked. "Of course, how silly i am ! playing a dodge after combat, hahaha, must be the jetlag, you know"
>
> Outside, the birds started chirping again. The sun came back and shone all day. I was safe from harm. I never played sideslip ever
> since. ^^

I'm pretty sure it was Mike Curtois's house, not Paul's. And those weren't
birds - Mike's orange dogs cleared the bird population out of that
neighborhood years ago with their incessant baying. I expect what you
probably heard was a Pink Floyd CD starting up in Matt Wedge's car; it's
an easy mistake to make what with people glaring at you and all.

But, yea. That's an accurate description of LA.

Fred
 >> Stay informed about: Declaration of minion tap [LSJ] 

Frederick Scott wrote:
> "reyda" <true_reyda RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:47a2093e$0$18068$79c14f64@nan-newsreader-05.noos.net...
>> first time i went to LA for a game, there was a scene like this.
>>
>> Dennis L (presence something) bleeds me.
>> I block (with inferior celerity thingy).
>> Nothing before range, close, no cards played yet.
>> Dennis L plays majesty.
>> I say "ok, i guess combat ends then".
>> i added like two second after "wait, let me cycle this sideslip to dodge here"
>> And something in the atmosphere just changed. I felt big stormy clouds gathering outside Paul's house. The air went electric when
>> Deenis took an incredible gaze at me, like if i just insulted his mother twice. His jaw was a bit hanging and his eyes were just
>> immense. "No, no..." he muttered. "You cannot do that ! the combat is over, you can't play your sideslip". Little i know that i
>> have just met the taboo of LA's playground. "but, hey, come on it's just a sideslip !"
>> Robert goudie's head made a quick rotation and i felt his cold stare from the armchair "the... combat... is... over..."
>> At this point my neck was aching. I felt not confortable anymore. I rapidly looked at the other players, hoping some friendly
>> support, waiting for someone to tell me something like "go and play your sideslip, it has absolutely ZERO impact on this combat
>> anway".
>> But instead, i just saw pity in everyone else's eye.
>> I think i read some prophecy "this man here wants to cheat. and he insisted twice to play a combat card outside combat. bring out
>> the hammer, the nails and raise the cross in the back yard."
>>
>> I blinked. "Of course, how silly i am ! playing a dodge after combat, hahaha, must be the jetlag, you know"
>>
>> Outside, the birds started chirping again. The sun came back and shone all day. I was safe from harm. I never played sideslip ever
>> since. ^^
>
> I'm pretty sure it was Mike Curtois's house, not Paul's. And those weren't
> birds - Mike's orange dogs cleared the bird population out of that
> neighborhood years ago with their incessant baying. I expect what you
> probably heard was a Pink Floyd CD starting up in Matt Wedge's car; it's
> an easy mistake to make what with people glaring at you and all.
>


When Reyda used to come to LA for E3, he would stay at Paul's house.

And was invited back, because he didn't walk around the house in his
underwear in front of Paul's wife and child.

All of which is probably waaaay too much information for everyone else
on this NG.

best -

chris




--
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 >> Stay informed about: Declaration of minion tap [LSJ] 

In message <f56c17b8-193d-4e5c-ac03-6f4032cd0d60.TakeThisOut@z17g2000hsg.googlegroup
s.com>, The Name Forgotten <texfam.TakeThisOut@telkomsa.net> writes:
>Then again, if you said something along the lines of, "Ok, I guess
>combat ends, YOUR GO" or something that denotes that you are passing
>on playing any further cards (either reaction cards like fast
>reactions or cat's guidance, or combat cards like your own strike or
>taste of vitae).

That implies that if, instead of Reyda changing his mind, someone had
started a new action (or tapped Heidelberg, perhaps), everyone would
have jumped on them for cheating.

Conventionally, people don't shout "YOUR GO" at each other, but still
manage to work out when it's their chance to do something.

--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
 >> Stay informed about: Declaration of minion tap [LSJ] 

On Jan 31, 10:23 pm, James Coupe <ja....DeleteThis@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
> In message <f56c17b8-193d-4e5c-ac03-6f4032cd0....DeleteThis@z17g2000hsg.googlegroup
> s.com>, The Name Forgotten <tex....DeleteThis@telkomsa.net> writes:
>
> >Then again, if you said something along the lines of, "Ok, I guess
> >combat ends, YOUR GO" or something that denotes that you are passing
> >on playing any further cards (either reaction cards like fast
> >reactions or cat's guidance, or combat cards like your own strike or
> >taste of vitae).
>
> That implies that if, instead of Reyda changing his mind, someone had
> started a new action (or tapped Heidelberg, perhaps), everyone would
> have jumped on them for cheating.

My point is, how could someone else on the table really tell the
difference in that scenario? I'm not even convinced that Reyda
consciously thought, "I'm not going to play a strike". More likely the
mistake was made in that he didn't think to play one and then realised
a second later that he could just to cycle. The fact that everyone
else moved on when the ball was actually still in his court is a
mistake they made and Reyda should not have to suffer because of it.

I've been in a similar situation plenty of times, where people move on
with their turns without fully resolving a combat (or action), and I'm
still thinking about whether or not I should use that Telepathic
Tracking and hoping to replace with a Walk of Flame, but at the same
time, you don't want to go advertising that you could still play a
card like Telepathic Tracking or Fast Reactions.

> Conventionally, people don't shout "YOUR GO" at each other, but still
> manage to work out when it's their chance to do something.

Agreed, but people may be wrong as well, such as in the situation
above, and that means that there should always be some lee-way in
going back. The most typical examples of this is when people play
cards that are 'as action is announced' and someone determines/directs
the initial action, or, as has happened to me on numerous occasions,
when someone is blocked and they immediately start playing cards
before range before I even get a chance to play obedience or mental
maze.

It happens as people often rush things in VTES to speed up play. I'm
hoping this is not something that is unique to our various playgroups
here, but is something that happens around the world. It certainly
seems to be the case from some of the examples I've seen on this
newsgroup.
 >> Stay informed about: Declaration of minion tap [LSJ] 

On Jan 31, 11:29 pm, Salem <salem_christ.....RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Nothing before range, close, no cards played yet.
> Dennis L plays majesty.
> I say "ok, i guess combat ends then".
> Dennis says "No. No it is not. I am afraid you must *declare* a strike.
> We cannot move onto resolving strikes until both combatants have
> declared a strike. You have not. Declare one. Now."
>
> ...or something like that.

After the first time this sort of situation happened, this is how we
would of played from that point on in that game (minus the whole
explanation). Dennis would've asked for a strike - which is really
important when you are playing with new players, as they don't always
realise that they get one.

Then you might still need to ask to continue your turn, or if any
cards still need to be played for that action - usually by asking
'Anything else?'. Not necessary to do in most games, but if you know
the person is playing cat's guidance, or fast reaction or whatever,
you should ask just to cover your bases.
 >> Stay informed about: Declaration of minion tap [LSJ] 

reyda wrote:
> Robert Goudie a écrit :
>
>>> The guys in LA play really tight.
>>
>>
>> If by playing "tight" you mean that we don't let players make a second
>> declaration. That's true, we don't.
>
> Sometime, you just push it so far it's incredible.
> first time i went to LA for a game, there was a scene like this.
>
> Dennis L (presence something) bleeds me.
> I block (with inferior celerity thingy).
> Nothing before range, close, no cards played yet.
> Dennis L plays majesty.
> I say "ok, i guess combat ends then".
> i added like two second after "wait, let me cycle this sideslip to dodge
> here"
> And something in the atmosphere just changed. I felt big stormy clouds
> gathering outside Paul's house. The air went electric when Deenis took
> an incredible gaze at me, like if i just insulted his mother twice. His
> jaw was a bit hanging and his eyes were just immense. "No, no..." he
> muttered. "You cannot do that ! the combat is over, you can't play your
> sideslip". Little i know that i have just met the taboo of LA's
> playground. "but, hey, come on it's just a sideslip !"
> Robert goudie's head made a quick rotation and i felt his cold stare
> from the armchair "the... combat... is... over..."
> At this point my neck was aching. I felt not confortable anymore. I
> rapidly looked at the other players, hoping some friendly support,
> waiting for someone to tell me something like "go and play your
> sideslip, it has absolutely ZERO impact on this combat anway".
> But instead, i just saw pity in everyone else's eye.
> I think i read some prophecy "this man here wants to cheat. and he
> insisted twice to play a combat card outside combat. bring out the
> hammer, the nails and raise the cross in the back yard."
>
> I blinked. "Of course, how silly i am ! playing a dodge after combat,
> hahaha, must be the jetlag, you know"
>
> Outside, the birds started chirping again. The sun came back and shone
> all day. I was safe from harm. I never played sideslip ever since. ^^

nice story. But you'd think if those LA guys were such sticklers, it
should have gone like this:

Nothing before range, close, no cards played yet.
Dennis L plays majesty.
I say "ok, i guess combat ends then".
Dennis says "No. No it is not. I am afraid you must *declare* a strike.
We cannot move onto resolving strikes until both combatants have
declared a strike. You have not. Declare one. Now."

....or something like that.

--
salem
(replace 'hotmail' with 'yahoo' to email)
 >> Stay informed about: Declaration of minion tap [LSJ] 

In message <9031c452-8e11-49c9-ac1d-69b1ff7bb749 RemoveThis @i3g2000hsf.googlegroups
..com>, The Name Forgotten <texfam RemoveThis @telkomsa.net> writes:
>My point is, how could someone else on the table really tell the
>difference in that scenario?

The same way they do when someone says "Well, I guess that's 3 pool
then" and lifts their pool into the bloodbank, even though the following
exchange has not occured:

"I am not playing any 'as announced' modifiers on this bleed. YOUR GO."
"I am not playing anything. YOUR GO."
"I am not playing any other modifiers right now. YOUR GO."
"I am asking for blocks. YOUR GO."
"I am declining to block. YOUR GO."

And so on.

--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
 >> Stay informed about: Declaration of minion tap [LSJ]