Declaration of minion tap [LSJ]

On Jan 26, 5:19 pm, LSJ <vtes... RemoveThis @white-wolf.com> wrote:
> ***JediMike*** wrote:
> > A methuselah plays minion tap choosing Leandro and declaring 11
> > (Leandro has 11 blood). Before redrawing the minon tap, the
> > methuselah counts the blood on Leandro and then declares, "I mean 10."
>
> > Is it legal to force the Methuselah to hold to the original
> > declaration of 11?
>
> Depends on what happened. If the "I mean 10" is part of the declaration, then it
> is part of the declaration. If not, then it isn't.
>
> And, really, why is this important? What advantage is imagined to be gained by
> the mis-speaking Methuselah by mis-speaking?

The guys in LA play really tight. The advantage to be gained is by
the mis-speaker's prey, who will say, "Ha! I heard 11! You have to
hunt!"

If you rule that the declaration is everything that the player who
declares it says in order to describe the action before he says he's
done or asks for a sudden, then that means you'd be ruling that nobody
can jump down your throat for saying it wrong.

It would really piss off LA, I think, but everyone else would probably
be fine with it. New players especially don't like to be punished for
trying to declare something.

-- Brian
 >> Stay informed about: Declaration of minion tap [LSJ] 

I think if someone forces the other person to go with the 11 that's
very unsportsmanlike. If he declares 11 does it and replaces his card
then that's fine. But if he hasn't drawn to replace or moved any
counters what's the bid deal?

LSJ- When have you offical "taken your hand off the piece"?
 >> Stay informed about: Declaration of minion tap [LSJ] 

On Jan 27, 7:19 am, Name.Luckynum....DeleteThis@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jan 26, 5:19 pm, LSJ <vtes....DeleteThis@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>
> > ***JediMike*** wrote:
> > > A methuselah plays minion tap choosing Leandro and declaring 11
> > > (Leandro has 11 blood). Before redrawing the minon tap, the
> > > methuselah counts the blood on Leandro and then declares, "I mean 10."
>
> > > Is it legal to force the Methuselah to hold to the original
> > > declaration of 11?
>
> > Depends on what happened. If the "I mean 10" is part of the declaration, then it
> > is part of the declaration. If not, then it isn't.
>
> > And, really, why is this important? What advantage is imagined to be gained by
> > the mis-speaking Methuselah by mis-speaking?
>
> The guys in LA play really tight.

If by playing "tight" you mean that we don't let players make a second
declaration. That's true, we don't. On the other hand, there probably
are a few locals might think that "tight" play is holding someone to a
slip of the tongue that occurred during a single declaration. In fact,
that's not "tight" play, it's "loose" since it violates the rules.
Our goal for tournament judging is to encourage tight play...the real
kind of tight play, and not the pseudo tight play that we've been
known for in the past.

> the mis-speaker's prey, who will say, "Ha! I heard 11! You have to
> hunt!"

Your whole post inserts the words "mis-speak" and assumes "11" was a
slip of the tongue and not a new declaration. (I don't know...I wasn't
there) Scott's advice makes the most sense. If it was one
declaration, "I minion tap for 11...no...make that 10" then it would
be wrong to hold the player to 11 (and a fine example of "loose play"
by the way). If it is two declarations then the judge could hold them
to their first declaration. Let the judge decide.

> If you rule that the declaration is everything that the player who
> declares it says in order to describe the action before he says he's
> done or asks for a sudden, then that means you'd be ruling that nobody
> can jump down your throat for saying it wrong.

I once had a player (not from LA) play a Mind Numb on another player's
vampire (he physically place the card on that player's vamp). The
other player complained and they argued/negotiated for 5 minutes and
then the acting player picked-up the Mind Numb and played it on my
vampire. I complained that the acting player had already played the
Mind Numb and couldn't re-play it. He responded with "but I didn't
*say* it was on his vampire and it just fell out of my hand earlier
and coincidentally landed on his vampire." It was obviously dis-
ingenuous.

My preference would be to avoid a hard and fast rule that requires
everybody to announce "I have now finished the declaration of my Mind
Numb" or to check with each player after each card play "do you DI? or
do you Eagle's Sight?" Just let the judge work it out.

> It would really piss off LA, I think, but everyone else would probably
> be fine with it. New players especially don't like to be punished for
> trying to declare something.

Ugh. I know this lingering reputation is our own fault (mine included)
but I suspect there are few people in LA who would be pissed off by
having to follow the rules.

-Robert
 >> Stay informed about: Declaration of minion tap [LSJ] 

On Jan 27, 7:49 am, devil_in_the_pale_moon_li....TakeThisOut@yahoo.com wrote:
> I think if someone forces the other person to go with the 11 that's
> very unsportsmanlike. If he declares 11 does it and replaces his card
> then that's fine. But if he hasn't drawn to replace or moved any
> counters what's the bid deal?

From the way the post reads to me, it sounds like the adjustment was
almost immediately and they made 10 their declaration. That would be
my ruling too (from the facts presented).

> LSJ- When have you offical "taken your hand off the piece"?

Let me give a vague answer that Scott might give:

"When you've completed your declaration."

or possibly:

"When your hand is no longer touching the piece."

I think that might be the heart of the issue in the original post.
(Mixing metaphors but here goes) Was the hand off the piece when "10"
was announced or was the hand still on the piece? If the hand was on
the piece then then "10" is allowed. If the hand was off the piece
then "11" is allowed. Let the judge decide.

-Robert
 >> Stay informed about: Declaration of minion tap [LSJ] 

> One time I remember in a draft a guy played (I believe) "Enrage" with one of
> his vampires, intending to do the superior version ("Put this card on any
> vampire. This vampire must burn 2 blood to attempt any action except for
> hunting and actions to enter combat. Burn this card after resolving this
> vampire's action.) he then realized that his minion only had inferior
> presence, but others at the table said that he had played the card so he had
> to continue with the minor action ("Put this card on a vampire you control.
> This vampire has +1 strength and may enter combat with another minion as a
> (D) action. Burn this card at the end of this turn.). Afterwards, I realized
> that was probably not fair.


For me this is a fine line (not the situation, but the spirit of it).
I know in competitive play you need a strict interpretation of the
rules, but I feel there can be an over zealous enforcement of a rule.
I know this is why we have judges.

I'm probably one of the few people who believe this, but don't you
want to win because you built the better deck, had a better strategy,
and/or made the better plays? I don't want to win because I caught
someone on a slip that worked to my advantage.
 >> Stay informed about: Declaration of minion tap [LSJ] 

Robert Goudie wrote:
I suspect there are few people in LA who would be pissed off by
> having to follow the rules.
>


Me! Me! That would mean an end the cheating phase, and we all know what
would happen then...

best -

chris
just don't cross the beams

--
Super Fun Cards
http://stores.ebay.com/superfuncards/
auctions.DeleteThis@superfuncards.com
 >> Stay informed about: Declaration of minion tap [LSJ] 

On Jan 27, 10:21 am, Robert Goudie <RobertT.Gou....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 27, 7:19 am, Name.Luckynum....TakeThisOut@gmail.com wrote:
> > It would really piss off LA, I think, but everyone else would probably
> > be fine with it. New players especially don't like to be punished for
> > trying to declare something.
>
> Ugh. I know this lingering reputation is our own fault (mine included)
> but I suspect there are few people in LA who would be pissed off by
> having to follow the rules.

As an outsider who has played with the LA playgroup sporadically over
the last ~4 years, I have noticed a significant improvement in their
playstyle, from overly anal to pleasantly fun. They still follow the
rules, of course, but they do it in a way that allows for new players
to be welcomed instead of scared.

Ira
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On Jan 28, 8:56 am, librarian <aucti....DeleteThis@superfuncards.com> wrote:
> Robert Goudie wrote:
>
> I suspect there are few people in LA who would be pissed off by
>
> > having to follow the rules.
>
> Me! Me!  That would mean an end the cheating phase, and we all know what
> would happen then...
>

The end-of-game 90-card pickup phase??? Followed by the ceremonial
booting out the door phase?
 >> Stay informed about: Declaration of minion tap [LSJ] 

On Jan 28, 8:21 am, James Coupe <ja....TakeThisOut@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
> In message <3eba31a7-10b7-4f8e-bae6-2778b4073....TakeThisOut@h11g2000prf.googlegroup
>
> s.com>, devil_in_the_pale_moon_li....TakeThisOut@yahoo.com writes:
> >I'm probably one of the few people who believe this, but don't you
> >want to win because you built the better deck, had a better strategy,
> >and/or made the better plays?  I don't want to win because I caught
> >someone on a slip that worked to my advantage.
>
> A player making a declaration and then changing it can also be trying to
> use a slip to their advantage, however.

This kind of question is why it needs to be the judges call. Something
like a poor declaration in a social game by a newbie should be treated
quite liberally, whereas an experienced player who has been making
multiple declarations in the middle of a Continental Championship
should be dealt with harshly.

More often then not, in a regular tournament, I'd give the player the
benefit of the doubt and let his new declaration stand, and caution
him to be more careful with his declarations. If they tried to pull of
the same thing twice I wouldn't let them get away with it, and hold
them to their first declaration. I'd also be a little more leniant to
someone who is obviously thinking out loud, like "I minion tap Marcus
for 5, uhm... [looks at hand, minion tap still in other hand],,,
hmm... let me see now... no, make that 4... yeah, I minion tap him for
4... [replaces card]" or also in a situation where the declaration
isn't really critically important (i.e. early game and no-one would
even bother calling a judge to question it).

I think it would be difficult to make any really definitive ruling on
how this situation should be handled without becoming unnecessarily
conservative about it - and that makes it very unfriendly for a newbie
trying to learn the game, or even experienced players who just want to
sit down and enjoy a game without it getting over-competitive.
 >> Stay informed about: Declaration of minion tap [LSJ] 

<devil_in_the_pale_moon_light.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:cfbbf47d-7b4c-4ce5-a464-12af5f5dc338@q21g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> I think if someone forces the other person to go with the 11 that's
> very unsportsmanlike. If he declares 11 does it and replaces his card
> then that's fine. But if he hasn't drawn to replace or moved any
> counters what's the bid deal?
>
> LSJ- When have you offical "taken your hand off the piece"?

This is a question that's come up in tournaments a couple times and
unfortunately it seems that the most vocal players rule whether something
can be taken back or not.

One time I remember in a draft a guy played (I believe) "Enrage" with one of
his vampires, intending to do the superior version ("Put this card on any
vampire. This vampire must burn 2 blood to attempt any action except for
hunting and actions to enter combat. Burn this card after resolving this
vampire's action.) he then realized that his minion only had inferior
presence, but others at the table said that he had played the card so he had
to continue with the minor action ("Put this card on a vampire you control.
This vampire has +1 strength and may enter combat with another minion as a
(D) action. Burn this card at the end of this turn.). Afterwards, I realized
that was probably not fair.

Neil
 >> Stay informed about: Declaration of minion tap [LSJ] 

> For example, you may deduce from someone's reaction or body language
> something that you didn't know, and then wish you'd declared the action
> differently, for example.  Similarly, you can get into problems when a
> player says "Unnatural Disaster on your KRCG." "Sudden Reversal." "No
> wait, I meant his Alamut."

This is slightly twisting what I'm saying. In the original situation,
it's my understanding, no card has been replace, no cards have been
played in response, and no counters have been moved.

In your situation, it seems obvious the player is trying a new target
because he knows one will not fly.

I suppose this all plays into you saying this is why we have judges,
and that's true. There is a level of sportsmanship that all players
should observe in my opinion, but I know there isn't.
 >> Stay informed about: Declaration of minion tap [LSJ] 

>but I know there isn't.

That should read "but I know not everyone does."

Sorry, it's early morning, and I'm dealing with a crying baby.
 >> Stay informed about: Declaration of minion tap [LSJ] 

In message <3eba31a7-10b7-4f8e-bae6-2778b4073fb5 RemoveThis @h11g2000prf.googlegroup
s.com>, devil_in_the_pale_moon_light RemoveThis @yahoo.com writes:
>I'm probably one of the few people who believe this, but don't you
>want to win because you built the better deck, had a better strategy,
>and/or made the better plays? I don't want to win because I caught
>someone on a slip that worked to my advantage.

A player making a declaration and then changing it can also be trying to
use a slip to their advantage, however.

For example, you may deduce from someone's reaction or body language
something that you didn't know, and then wish you'd declared the action
differently, for example. Similarly, you can get into problems when a
player says "Unnatural Disaster on your KRCG." "Sudden Reversal." "No
wait, I meant his Alamut."

--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
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