DR - Absorption

On Jan 21, 12:17 pm, Max Wilson <wilson.... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> 10x. If I take a full -80% limitations, then it's only 2x as expensive
> as invisibility (80 pts.). Whence comes the 4x?

This is obviously wrong. The minimum possible cost for DR is 1 pt., so
invisibility could cost 40 pts. (I haven't run the numbers to figure
out how crippling your limitations would have to be to get -180% to
offset +100% for absorptive. I tend to think Reflective DR is a
smarter buy for anyone who actually needs DR, and Modular Abilities is
better for anyone who just needs flexible powers.)

-Max
 >> Stay informed about: DR - Absorption 

On Jan 21, 2:19 pm, David Johnston <da....DeleteThis@block.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 12:17:06 -0800 (PST), Max Wilson
> >True, yes, you could use DR limitations, but I don't understand "4
> >times as much" unless that's also a reference to limitations.
> >Absorptive DR without extra limitations costs 10 CP per point,
>
> Why are you counting the cost of the DR itself instead of just the
> cost of the absorbtion?

Because DR is a prerequisite to buying the absoptive DR. The
opportunity cost (the set of powers you're actually interested in)
might or might not include DR.

If you could buy "raw absorption" separately from DR ("each point of
basic damage dealt to you gives you 1 CP, as per absorptive DR") you
could obviously leave the cost of DR out of the equation. Hmm. In that
case, there might be cases where it's smartest to take 2 points or so
of DR and a whole bunch of points of raw absorption, and have your
buddies shoot you up with 1d-3(0.2) flechettes or something. Weird.

-Max
 >> Stay informed about: DR - Absorption 

On 2008-01-21, Max Wilson <wilson.max DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> What happens if you use points absorbed to improve social traits, like
> Status ("Mr. X is considered quite respectable in this town, but oddly
> enough only while his butler is beating him with a stick") or Wealth?

Wealth is simple enough. ("Behold my amazing Pinata Powers! When I am
struck a resounding blow, gold coins fly everywhe-- ow! OW! Stop that!
OW!")

--
--- An' thou dost not get caught, do as thou wilt shall be the law ---
"Religion disperses like a fog, kingdoms perish, but the works of
scholars remain for an eternity." - Ulughbek
 >> Stay informed about: DR - Absorption 

On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 08:45:35 -0800 (PST), Max Wilson
<wilson.max.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:

>Absorption is conceptually a really cool enhancement on a power, but
>it's also a tremendously inefficient way to spend your points. To get
>a power through Absorption costs ten times as much as just buying it
>outright (or eight times if you take it with Tough Skin, etc.), which
>means it would generally be better just to buy regular DR and buy the
>power.

4 times as much. If you pile up an 80% limitation on your DR, you'll
break even (or better if you use multiplicative modifiers). It's
still a good deal if the trait you are increasing is hit points or
fatigue.
 >> Stay informed about: DR - Absorption 

On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 12:17:06 -0800 (PST), Max Wilson
<wilson.max.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Jan 21, 11:43 am, David Johnston <da....DeleteThis@block.net> wrote:
>> On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 08:45:35 -0800 (PST), Max Wilson
>>
>> <wilson.....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >Absorption is conceptually a really cool enhancement on a power, but
>> >it's also a tremendously inefficient way to spend your points. To get
>> >a power through Absorption costs ten times as much as just buying it
>> >outright (or eight times if you take it with Tough Skin, etc.), which
>> >means it would generally be better just to buy regular DR and buy the
>> >power.
>>
>> 4 times as much.  If you pile up an 80% limitation on your DR, you'll
>> break even (or better if you use multiplicative modifiers).  It's
>> still a good deal if the trait you are increasing is hit points or
>> fatigue.  
>
>True, yes, you could use DR limitations, but I don't understand "4
>times as much" unless that's also a reference to limitations.
>Absorptive DR without extra limitations costs 10 CP per point,

Why are you counting the cost of the DR itself instead of just the
cost of the absorbtion?
 >> Stay informed about: DR - Absorption 

On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 16:41:38 -0800 (PST), Max Wilson
<wilson.max RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:

>On Jan 21, 2:19 pm, David Johnston <da... RemoveThis @block.net> wrote:
>> On Mon, 21 Jan 2008 12:17:06 -0800 (PST), Max Wilson
>> >True, yes, you could use DR limitations, but I don't understand "4
>> >times as much" unless that's also a reference to limitations.
>> >Absorptive DR without extra limitations costs 10 CP per point,
>>
>> Why are you counting the cost of the DR itself instead of just the
>> cost of the absorbtion?
>
>Because DR is a prerequisite to buying the absoptive DR.

But DR has value in itself. If you are going to talk about cost
effectiveness, you can't just ignore that if you want a valid result.
 >> Stay informed about: DR - Absorption 

On Jan 21, 4:59 pm, David Johnston <da....DeleteThis@block.net> wrote:
> But DR has value in itself.  If you are going to talk about cost
> effectiveness, you can't just ignore that if you want a valid result.

David, please stop snipping the parts of my message that address your
point, and then arguing with me as if I hadn't said the thing I just
said.

-Max
 >> Stay informed about: DR - Absorption 

On Jan 22, 11:49 am, David Johnston <da... DeleteThis @block.net> wrote:
> You didn't address my point.  See here:
> >If you could buy "raw absorption" separately from DR ("each point of
> >basic damage dealt to you gives you 1 CP, as per absorptive DR") you
> >could obviously leave the cost of DR out of the equation.
>
> That does not address my point.  It doesn't matter whether you can buy
> "raw absorption" separately.  DR still has value in itself.  

I quote: "Because DR is a prerequisite to buying the absoptive DR. The
opportunity cost (the set of powers you're actually interested in)
might or might not include DR."

The normal way of evaluating opportunity cost is to count the cost of
the best available alternative. In this case, it would be the cheapest-
possible way of attaining the utility you get from absorptive DR. I
didn't dwell on this because it's tangential to my main point
(absorptive DR and social traits), but you do the calculation this
way: if I want to have DR 10 and Invisibility, this can be purchased
either by buying absorptive DR 40 (400 pts) or DR 10 and Invisibility
(90 pts). The net cost of buying this with absorptive DR is 310
points. There are some other miscellaneous effects, such as needing to
continually take damage in order to stay invisible and the
counterbalancing versatility and healing potential, but if versatility
were particularly important to me (maybe I want to fly sometimes, too)
it should be included that in the opportunity cost.

It's hard to imagine a scenario where absorptive DR is actually point-
efficient. It has tremendous "coolness," but in practice Reflective
probably offers much better utility.

-Max
 >> Stay informed about: DR - Absorption 

On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 10:55:30 -0800 (PST), Max Wilson
<wilson.max DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:

>On Jan 21, 4:59 pm, David Johnston <da... DeleteThis @block.net> wrote:
>> But DR has value in itself.  If you are going to talk about cost
>> effectiveness, you can't just ignore that if you want a valid result.
>
>David, please stop snipping the parts of my message that address your
>point, and then arguing with me as if I hadn't said the thing I just
>said.

You didn't address my point. See here:

>
>If you could buy "raw absorption" separately from DR ("each point of
>basic damage dealt to you gives you 1 CP, as per absorptive DR") you
>could obviously leave the cost of DR out of the equation.

That does not address my point. It doesn't matter whether you can buy
"raw absorption" separately. DR still has value in itself.
 >> Stay informed about: DR - Absorption 

On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:51:45 -0800 (PST), Max Wilson
<wilson.max DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:

>On Jan 22, 11:49 am, David Johnston <da... DeleteThis @block.net> wrote:
>> You didn't address my point.  See here:
>> >If you could buy "raw absorption" separately from DR ("each point of
>> >basic damage dealt to you gives you 1 CP, as per absorptive DR") you
>> >could obviously leave the cost of DR out of the equation.
>>
>> That does not address my point.  It doesn't matter whether you can buy
>> "raw absorption" separately.  DR still has value in itself.  
>
>I quote: "Because DR is a prerequisite to buying the absoptive DR. The
>opportunity cost (the set of powers you're actually interested in)
>might or might not include DR."

When evaluating whether it's worth the point investment however to
get absorption ignoring the full value of the trait doesn't make
sense.

>
>The normal way of evaluating opportunity cost is to count the cost of
>the best available alternative. In this case, it would be the cheapest-
>possible way of attaining the utility you get from absorptive DR. I
>didn't dwell on this because it's tangential to my main point
>(absorptive DR and social traits), but you do the calculation this
>way: if I want to have DR 10 and Invisibility, this can be purchased
>either by buying absorptive DR 40 (400 pts)

No, 360 points.

or DR 10 and Invisibility
>(90 pts).

If that's what you want, that's what you should get. Turning
invisible by Absorption doesn't make a lot of sense anyway. But I'll
note that the first guy does have 30 more points of DR so I'm guessing
if the two of them were to fight, he'd have a substantial edge despite
his weird and ineffective design.

The net cost of buying this with absorptive DR is 310
>points. There are some other miscellaneous effects, such as needing to
>continually take damage in order to stay invisible and the
>counterbalancing versatility and healing potential, but if versatility
>were particularly important to me (maybe I want to fly sometimes, too)
>it should be included that in the opportunity cost.
>
>It's hard to imagine a scenario where absorptive DR is actually point-
>efficient.

It's much easier when you try to do something remotely sensible with
it rather than something barking mad like absorption to invisiblity.
As long as the single trait you are boosting is Hit Points, which is
allowed, it'll give you some pretty scarey staying power. The guy
with 40 DR absorbative can take up to 60 points of damage no matter
how many times he's hit, even healing his hit points as long as the
damage on a particular round is less than 60. He's way, way better
than the guy with 40 DR and 20 extra hits. And if you have multiple
trait absorption then comparing it to the same amount of +Modular
abilities says 40DR absorbative costs 400 while the modular equivalent
costs 800 - the accessibility limitation for needing to be hit. Then
you have to buy your DR separately.
 >> Stay informed about: DR - Absorption