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lemuel.pitkin

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Since: Aug 01, 2006
Posts: 33



(Msg. 1) Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:53 pm
Post subject: Crawl suggestions (long)
Archived from groups: rec>games>roguelike>misc (more info?)

Having finally beaten this game, I feel ready to suggest improvements.
A broad principle and then some ideas.

The principle: Balancing should make different options more, not less,
distinct. For example:
* Is Crystal Spear too powerful? Don't reduce its damage, lower its
range. What if earth conjurations all had a range of 4 or 5? There
aren't many (any?) spells with that kind of range right now - it
would create a whole new set of tactical problems.
* Are shields too weak? Don't just boost their general effectiveness,
leave them weak for melee but very effective against missile weapons.
* If artifact weapons are weak because they can't be enchanted,
don't just adjust things so the pluses end up closer, give artifacts
other advantages. For instance, what if an artifact weapon could have
multiple brands, or an offensive evocation?

And some YANIs:

1. More high-level consumables. Some of these should be so rare that
you might not find even one in a normal game, justifying the use of an
acquirement on a potion or scroll. Potion of full healing; potion of
invulnerability; potion of degradation (permanently lowers a stat);
potion of permanence (greatly extends any current magic effects);
potion of fiery breath (gives you a temporary breath weapon); potion of
power (like might, but for spellcasters); potion of polymorph (acts as
a *-form spell); potion of detonations (very powerful with Evaporate);
potion of growth/shrinking (works with the new size system); potion of
resistance (fire, cold and electricity); potion of gaseous form (big
evasion and stealth boost; can't physically attack; can pass through
walls); scrolls of devotion (big piety boost; nice when you're
switching gods) and heresy (angers your god); scroll that instantly
transports you to the first level of any discovered branch (would not
work when teleport control is impossible); scroll of mass charming;
scroll of enchant item (boosts the power of variable-effect jewelry);
scroll of banishment (instantly sends you to the Abyss).

2. Make miscellaneous items more useful. Why should the disk of storms
be unusable if you have shock resistance? - it would be cool if that
could be your main form of attack. And making the summoning items
depend on elemental skills makes them almost useless (except the
nondescript stone). Either get rid of the dependence, or let use of
element-linked items practice elemental skills.

3. If it wouldn't require too much coding trouble, let vision radius
vary. That would create a whole new dimension for tradeoffs among
races, items, gods, etc. If monsters had variable range vision that
would create more variation there too. Of course you'd have to figure
out how to deal with attacks from outside visual range. The simplest
solution would just be to make a ranged attacker always visible on the
target's next turn.

4. More kinds of monster attacks and defenses. How about one or two
kinds of monsters (maybe an aquatic one and a slow-moving land one)
that could grab the player and prevent movement? Make golems immune to
all magic attacks, like in earlier editions of D&D. Add one or two
monsters that can steal or permanently destroy equipment. How about a
monster (maybe some kind of 1) that can cause you to forget spells?
Better bring your spellbooks to Hell. A monster that reflects beam
attacks. Let Q's create permanent new monsters of the appropriate
type. Then put a bunch of them in the last level of the Hive - it
would be a totally different challenge if k's were being created as
fast as you could kill them until you forced your way through to the
queens. A monster that can pass through rock, and flees into the walls
when damaged. The best way to kill it would be in an open area.

5. New weapon brands. Madness (charms, confuses, scares, paralyzes or
slows target, with a probability based on your Enchantment skill;
drains intelligence when wielded). Dancing (evoke to animate).
Treachery (boosts stabbing damage). Shattering (may destroy
opponent's equipment; nasty if a monster is wielding it). Entangling
(whips only; prevents opponent from fleeing.) Whirlwind (may strike
additional monsters next to original target; of course to use it
effectively you have to be fighting multiple opponents.)

6. More nasty traps. Trapdoors and shafts that drop you down one or
more levels); antimagic traps that drain your mana and cancel any
current magical effects; bear traps like in some other roguelikes.

7. More gods. A Nethack-style god whose piety rises over time, who
helps you with your most serious problem when you pray, but who
doesn't like to be prayed to too often. An earth god who helps you
with earth magic and earth-based attacks (including thrown stones) and
at high levels allows you to create golems based on the size and type
of items on your square (another reason to hoover), whose piety rises
as you go deeper underground and also likes sacrifices of gold. A
thieves' god who boosts your stealth when praying, has an invocation
that attempts to sleep all monsters in LOS, likes killing monsters
unawares, and dislikes making loud noises (no wands of lightning for
you!) A god of wild magic who gives a number of enchantment-type
invocations but dislikes the use of magic devices - anything that
trains the evocation skill. Among existing gods, the necromantic-magic
one should be changed so the invocations better complement spells.
Instead of summoning a reaper, how about an invocation to heal, haste,
or otherwise empower all nearby undead? Demonspawn should not be
allowed to worship a god - there should be an atheist option besides
demigods.

8. The tradeoff between spell schools should be harder, such that
it's basically impossible to cast top-shelf spells from both of
opposed schools. Either LCS or Deflect Missiles, either Fire Storm or
.... well, we might need a new high-powered Ice spell. Similarly with
the non-elemental schools - you should really have to pick two or
three. Right now spellcasters all seem to end up with the same list,
which is kind of dull.

9. Make doors matter somehow. If pillar-dancing is eliminated (it does
seem un-Crawl-like), there should be some way to use doors to get away
from pursuers, at least if they can't open them. Maybe the solution
is to make it easier to open up a space from a pursuer, but make nearby
monsters follow you up stairs with a couple turn delay. So closing a
door would be the best way to get time to rest - especially if there
were some way to lock it.

10. Suppose the chance of leaving a corpse depended on the attack form.
(Would fit with the flavor text in the readme.) Say you're more
likely to get a corpse with a polearm, short blade, poison or
non-conjuration spell, as likely as currently with a quarterstaff, long
blade, unarmed attack, missile weapon or low-level conjuration, and
least likely with an axe, mace or high-level conjuration. Would be
something else to consider when choosing a weapon skill.

Lemuel

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sterjs

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Since: Mar 03, 2006
Posts: 118



(Msg. 2) Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Crawl suggestions (long) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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lemuel.pitkin.RemoveThis@gmail.com wrote:
> 3. If it wouldn't require too much coding trouble, let vision radius
> vary.

IMO, this would be very annoying and add almost nothing to the game.

> Make golems immune to
> all magic attacks, like in earlier editions of D&D.

Silly, IMO. You just force conjurers to learn melee weapons to beat
Zot: 5.

> Add one or two
> monsters that can steal or permanently destroy equipment.

Too annoying, Crawl is tough enough. J's are enough of a bitch and they
just take off a few plusses if you're not careful.

> How about a
> monster (maybe some kind of 1) that can cause you to forget spells?

Orange statues can. Purple 3's? Brain worms? Not sure about the last
two.

> 7. More gods. A Nethack-style god whose piety rises over time, who
> helps you with your most serious problem when you pray, but who
> doesn't like to be prayed to too often.

Boring. If you want Nethack gods, play Nethack.

I think there are plenty of Gods. Kiku, Zin, TSO don't see too much
play, unfairly IMO as they all have their advantages.

> 8. The tradeoff between spell schools should be harder, such that
> it's basically impossible to cast top-shelf spells from both of
> opposed schools. Either LCS or Deflect Missiles, either Fire Storm or
> ... well, we might need a new high-powered Ice spell...

Like Ice Storm? Ice storm is comparable to Fire Storm and it even does
1/2 damage to resistant creatures.

> Right now spellcasters all
> seem to end up with the same list,
> which is kind of dull.

Unfortunately, in practice this would still result in spellcasters all
looking the same...they'd just have an even more limited spell
selection. Deflect Missiles is great, but LCS is critical--without it
you can't take out fire/ice resistant creatures.

4.1.xx will nerf vehumet's enhancement and enhancer staves, so I think
we'll see some radical changes to spellcasters.

> 10. Suppose the chance of leaving a corpse depended on the attack form.

Does this really add to the game?

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Denis

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Since: Dec 16, 2005
Posts: 150



(Msg. 3) Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Crawl suggestions (long) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

lemuel.pitkin.RemoveThis@gmail.com wrote:
> Having finally beaten this game, I feel ready to suggest improvements.
> A broad principle and then some ideas.
>
> The principle: Balancing should make different options more, not less,
> distinct. For example:
> * Are shields too weak? Don't just boost their general effectiveness,
> leave them weak for melee but very effective against missile weapons.

I think shields skill bonus multiplier should be (15+skill)/15 instead
of (20+skill)/20.
It should also be possible to remove the speed penalty with skill, -1
at level 10 and -2 at maybe level 20. Right now with a large shield +
1handed weapon you're limited to 90 speed while with a two-handed
weapon you can get down to 70 speed, and have more damage.

> * If artifact weapons are weak because they can't be enchanted,
> don't just adjust things so the pluses end up closer, give artifacts
> other advantages. For instance, what if an artifact weapon could have
> multiple brands, or an offensive evocation?

Multiple brands could be fun, would have to be rare though. And maybe a
second brand must come with a random negative effect (fast metabolism,
minus resist)

Also rods need to be made weaker, must have hungering and maybe fail
rate based on skill.
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B0rsuk

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Since: Mar 23, 2006
Posts: 78



(Msg. 4) Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:45 am
Post subject: Re: Crawl suggestions (long) [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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> * Are shields too weak? Don't just boost their general effectiveness,
> leave them weak for melee but very effective against missile weapons.

I sort of agree. I would make it this way:
smaller shields are fairly good in melee (against single opponents, not
groups), but not great agains missiles.
bigger shields are better against missiles, but worse in melee.

> invulnerability; potion of degradation (permanently lowers a stat);
> potion of permanence (greatly extends any current magic effects);

Why a potion ?

potion of power (like might, but for spellcasters); potion of polymorph
(acts as
> a *-form spell);

Why not a scroll ? What's next ? Potion of 'You go to work when I drink
it' ?

>
> 2. Make miscellaneous items more useful.

To this, I would like to add: make some items weaker. I don't like the
fact that so many games are centered about single item, like amulet of
gourmand or rage. Amulet of gourmand is evil because it removes
advantage of many obscure races like kobold, ogre, hill orc, troll who
are able to eat chunks with little side effects and in some cases even
to 'full' status. You don't even have to keep " of gourmand on your
neck, you just wear it when it's safe to eat. I think the amulet should
be reworked so that it works only if you wore it for last 150 turns or
so. It should require some dedicated usage. I don't see why it's even
an amulet if you don't have to wear it except for special cases.
Amulet of rage is too powerful for my taste. So much that warriors
typically don't wear anything else - variety of choice suffers. I'd be
happy to see crawl players argue about which amulet is the best. Such
arguments about game strategy are a sign of good balance. It's not
going to happen as long as " of rage is so good. I'd say it should make
wearer pass out AFTER EACH RAGE. As an added benefit, it would make
Trog and potion of Berserk more unique. Especially potions of Berserk
are quite pointless for such a rare item. When was the last time you
were excited when you identified one of those ?
Wait, I have a great idea ! Make Scrolls of Amnesia potentially useful
! Make them make you partially forget one (or all) of your skills -
skill points moved from skills to unallocated points pool. For example
when you read one of these, you'd forget 3% of each of your skills.
>
> 3. If it wouldn't require too much coding trouble, let vision radius
> vary. That would create a whole new dimension for tradeoffs among
> races, items, gods, etc. If monsters had variable range vision that
> would create more variation there too. Of course you'd have to figure
> out how to deal with attacks from outside visual range. The simplest
> solution would just be to make a ranged attacker always visible on the
> target's next turn.

I'm afraid it can't be done easily. I heard monsters see you when you
can see them. I suppose extending vision range would extend monsters'
vision range, too. A pity, because it would be a cool feature and I
already thought about it.
However, it can still be used. Make a fire-based misc item, or a fire
spell Flare, which would extend vision radius with all of its pros and
cons, such as greater field of view but also greater vulnerability to
ranged monsters and worse stealth. Another cool tactical decision to
make = good.
>
> 4. More kinds of monster attacks and defenses. How about one or two
- a monster that blocks line of sight (either very big, or a cloud of
some sort)
- a monster which prevents you from moving (and lowers your dodging) as
long as you're adjacent to it.
- a monster that can switch places with other monsters.
- a monster which flees and eats corpses to regain strength
- gremlin: small, fast, cowardous, screams for help when threatened
(like scroll of noise). Moves safely over traps.
- a spellcaster that heals other monsters, buffs them, teleports
monsters from other parts of level


>
> 5. New weapon brands. Madness (charms, confuses, scares, paralyzes or
> slows target, with a probability based on your Enchantment skill;
> drains intelligence when wielded). Dancing (evoke to animate).
> Treachery (boosts stabbing damage). Shattering (may destroy
> opponent's equipment; nasty if a monster is wielding it).
Shattering probably too powerful, make it disarm monster instead
(weapon falls to ground). I like others.

Whirlwind (may strike
> additional monsters next to original target; of course to use it
> effectively you have to be fighting multiple opponents.)

In my opinion this is how weapons of electricity should work like.

>
> 6. More nasty traps. Trapdoors and shafts that drop you down one or
> more levels); antimagic traps that drain your mana and cancel any
> current magical effects; bear traps like in some other roguelikes.

One of things I like about Crawl is that traps are survivable even
without Traps skill. You can just wear heavy armor and you'll probably
survive, even if it's ocassionaly painful and dangerous.

> 7. More gods. A Nethack-style god whose piety rises over time, who

A god of Trickery/Adventure. Easily bored. Not Nemelex, he's a
powergamer's/abuser's god.

Powers would include:
Sense Earth invocation (short range)
Swiftness
Tukima's Dance perhaps (highest, costly)

May help you when pleased by:
- revealing some traps for you
- when you're in danger, may try to teleport away all monsters close to
you.
- may identify all items you're carrying (highest reward)

When angered:
- FULL amnesia + teleport
- waits until you descend a staircase and teleports you/reads scroll of
noise
- summons phantoms, imps, unseen horrors or other invisibles to punish
you

Pleased by:
- discovering traps or doors
- revealing uncharted areas other than Abyss. Shouldn't work with
amnesia.
- cumulative bonus for entering a new branch
- backstabs
- reading an unidentified scroll
- drinking an unknown potion

Angered by:
- piety continuously goes down fairly fast, so you have to keep
exploring.
===========
Unfortunately, Brent Ross seems to be more interested in limiting
choices, it seems. From what I heard, he came up with an idea of
Unarmed bonus at Dex 15, and weapons limited by stats. GOGO Ogre Mages,
now you have to pump all your points into Str and wear rings of Str
just to use your racial ability.
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enurmi

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Since: Feb 06, 2006
Posts: 51



(Msg. 5) Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:53 am
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lemuel.pitkin.TakeThisOut@gmail.com wrote:
> Having finally beaten this game, I feel ready to suggest improvements.
> A broad principle and then some ideas.
>
> The principle: Balancing should make different options more, not less,
> distinct. For example:
> * Is Crystal Spear too powerful? Don't reduce its damage, lower its
> range. What if earth conjurations all had a range of 4 or 5? There
> aren't many (any?) spells with that kind of range right now - it
> would create a whole new set of tactical problems.
> * Are shields too weak? Don't just boost their general effectiveness,
> leave them weak for melee but very effective against missile weapons.
> * If artifact weapons are weak because they can't be enchanted,
> don't just adjust things so the pluses end up closer, give artifacts
> other advantages. For instance, what if an artifact weapon could have
> multiple brands, or an offensive evocation?

I like your principle and these ideas! On the other hand, I don't think
shields are too weak as such, they do block things very, very well. I
think the issue here is that they have various side effects which all
are negative. If I rememger right these include weapon speed,
spellcasting, EV malus (?), weapon accuracy (?). I would personally
rather chance these. For example, why would it affect spellcasting when
two-handed weapons don't? I think shields would be better balanced if
we could drop both the spellcasting malus and the weapon speed malus. I
think these don't make much sense. I believe weapon accuracy would be
reduced if you are wearing a shield, but not the speed since you
wouldn't do anything with that hand anyway.

> 5. New weapon brands. Madness (charms, confuses, scares, paralyzes or
> slows target, with a probability based on your Enchantment skill;
> drains intelligence when wielded). Dancing (evoke to animate).
> Treachery (boosts stabbing damage). Shattering (may destroy
> opponent's equipment; nasty if a monster is wielding it). Entangling
> (whips only; prevents opponent from fleeing.) Whirlwind (may strike
> additional monsters next to original target; of course to use it
> effectively you have to be fighting multiple opponents.)

I like many of these! Madness seems a good idea, although a character
that has high Enchantment skill propably values his intelligence and
would not use this. Perhaps some other downside? I think the shattering
one would be a bad idea, and the Entangling would not work, since if
you have caught something with your whip, you could not hit it with the
same whip. The others sound very good to me.

> 7. More gods. A Nethack-style god whose piety rises over time, who
> helps you with your most serious problem when you pray, but who
> doesn't like to be prayed to too often.

This I don't like. Too much nethack, since one of the key differences
in religion is that in Crawl you should be praying a lot, I mean it
seems that the "pray" command in these to games has almost nothing
similar, just the name.

> An earth god who helps you
> with earth magic and earth-based attacks (including thrown stones) and
> at high levels allows you to create golems based on the size and type
> of items on your square (another reason to hoover), whose piety rises
> as you go deeper underground and also likes sacrifices of gold. A
> thieves' god who boosts your stealth when praying, has an invocation
> that attempts to sleep all monsters in LOS, likes killing monsters
> unawares, and dislikes making loud noises (no wands of lightning for
> you!) A god of wild magic who gives a number of enchantment-type
> invocations but dislikes the use of magic devices - anything that
> trains the evocation skill.

Good ideas!

> 10. Suppose the chance of leaving a corpse depended on the attack form.
> (Would fit with the flavor text in the readme.) Say you're more
> likely to get a corpse with a polearm, short blade, poison or
> non-conjuration spell, as likely as currently with a quarterstaff, long
> blade, unarmed attack, missile weapon or low-level conjuration, and
> least likely with an axe, mace or high-level conjuration. Would be
> something else to consider when choosing a weapon skill.

I agree on this one! The crawl manual (crawl.txt, not the readme.txt)
states the following: "If you manage to kill a monster delicately
enough to avoid scattering bits of it around the room, it may leave a
corpse behind for you to play with". I believe this is the flavor text
you refer to. For a long time I thought, based on this text, that it
would be less propable to leave a corpse when you are a troll swinging
a giant club compared to, say, a spriggan stabbing with a dagger. It
would be a good idea to make this really happen. It would propably make
a STR 35 troll's inventory look like this:
a +0 giant spiked club
(for killing)
b +0 hammer
(food preparing tool)
c +0 dagger
(butchering tool)

Also high-level conjurers would have to use a cooking spell (throw
flame / stone arrow) to avoid blowing the corpse up.

Well, either this or simply change the manual text.

Erkki Nurmi
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erisdiscordia

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Since: Apr 20, 2005
Posts: 381



(Msg. 6) Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:35 am
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lemuel.pitkin.RemoveThis@gmail.com wrote:

[ideas for cool stuff]

Reducing throwaways and no-brainers among existing stuff is a higher
priority than adding new cool stuff. On a day when the number of
multiple, independent report of "XYZ sucks" or "XYZ means you wouldn't
want anything else" reports is a quarter or an eighth of what it is
today, it'll be another story. Also note that adding new items means
playing with item generation rates, which Brent has said are very hard
to balance right.

[ideas for cool game mechanics]

Ditto.

[LCS overpowered]

LCS is a level 8 spell. It's *supposed* to hit hard.

> 2. Make miscellaneous items more useful. Why should the disk of storms
> be unusable if you have shock resistance?

Because then you have a infinitely reusable risk-free 0-MP mega-attack,
applicable against almost every monster type until the endgame, limited
in power only by your Evocations skill.

Do you have an alternative idea? It's certainly true that the disc of
storms is currently useless to all but a very limited selection of
characters (who have high HP and either high evasion or missile
repelling/deflection). Broadening that a little would make this item a
bit less throwaway.

> - it would be cool if that
> could be your main form of attack. And making the summoning items
> depend on elemental skills makes them almost useless (except the
> nondescript stone). Either get rid of the dependence,

There has to be *some* cost for an infinite supply of e.g. friendly
earth elementals, so success must be either dependent on *something*,
or fixed at some low level, or each use must have a high cost in MP or
something similar.

> or let use of element-linked items practice elemental skills.

This would bypass the usual two of the usual investments for elemental
summoning -- Spellcasting and Summoning -- and would allow training of
4 different magic skills even without having any levels of Spellcasting
yet. Pretty powerful. Of course for any skill except Earth, each
training would involve the creation of a hostile elemental for a pretty
long time. (Earth needs 5 skill levels, Fire needs 10, and Ice and, I
believe, Air need 15 for nearly-guaranteed friendlies from Summon
Elemental, and I believe from misc items too.)

Simple to implement, suggested more than once... maybe I'd add 2
things: a requirement to have at least 1 level of Spellcasting before
usage can cause training, and a "naughty" flag for Trog, since it would
look funny for players to go about repeatedly training a magical skill
(outside the unavoidable 1 Spellcasting level from scrolls) without
Trog caring.

Stones of Earth Elementals could become balance problems here (5 levels
of Earth magic is really easy to get) even with the "must have some
Spellcasting first" restriction, so they should provide a bit less
training.

> 8. The tradeoff between spell schools should be harder, such that
> it's basically impossible to cast top-shelf spells from both of
> opposed schools. Either LCS or Deflect Missiles, either Fire Storm or
> ... well, we might need a new high-powered Ice spell. Similarly with
> the non-elemental schools - you should really have to pick two or
> three. Right now spellcasters all seem to end up with the same list,
> which is kind of dull.

This here is a balance complaint (from a single source so far, I think,
but that could change), but I don't see the problem. My spellcasters
have quite varied lists, except for a few chestnuts for certain types
-- e.g. a *pure* conjurer, *if* I'll be taking him to the Hells and
beyond and *if* it's not a contest or a challenge game, of course I'll
give him LCS if it's available. But I just can't convince myself to be
bothered by that. It's one spell. There aren't too many more like that.

> 9. Make doors matter somehow.

Another first complaint (all "to the best of my knowledge" of course)
on a subject. But no matter, just one more person makes "multiple." Smile


Doors already do protect you -- they protect you from all animals
(including unseen horrors!), and for a stealthy character, can keep
still-"groggy" enemies from seeing you until you choose to engage them.
That's already pretty strong, so I see this as "ain't broke."

> If pillar-dancing is eliminated (it does
> seem un-Crawl-like), there should be some way to use doors to get away
> from pursuers, at least if they can't open them. Maybe the solution
> is to make it easier to open up a space from a pursuer, but make nearby
> monsters follow you up stairs with a couple turn delay. So closing a
> door would be the best way to get time to rest - especially if there
> were some way to lock it.

That's a pretty complex set of changes just to strengthen doors. Smile
Door locking does sound nice, though, a feature to consider when the
time for cool features comes. A lot of complexity/implementation work
for the given amount of coolness, though. (New items and new spells for
un/locking, monster usage of them, etc.)

> 10. Suppose the chance of leaving a corpse depended on the attack form.

Ugh.

> (Would fit with the flavor text in the readme.)

Then the flavor text needs changed. Smile

e.
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erisdiscordia

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Since: Apr 20, 2005
Posts: 381



(Msg. 7) Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:50 am
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sterjs DeleteThis @gmail.com wrote:
> lemuel.pitkin DeleteThis @gmail.com wrote:

> I think there are plenty of Gods. Kiku, Zin, TSO don't see too much

> > 8. The tradeoff between spell schools should be harder, such that
> > it's basically impossible to cast top-shelf spells from both of
> > opposed schools. Either LCS or Deflect Missiles, either Fire Storm or
> > ... well, we might need a new high-powered Ice spell...
>
> Like Ice Storm? Ice storm is comparable to Fire Storm and it even does
> 1/2 damage to resistant creatures.

That's just like Brent would say it. Are you sure you're not Brent
suffering from identity loss? Very Happy

(I agree with you, by the way.)

e.
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erisdiscordia

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Since: Apr 20, 2005
Posts: 381



(Msg. 8) Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:12 am
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B0rsuk wrote:
> > * Are shields too weak? Don't just boost their general effectiveness,
> > leave them weak for melee but very effective against missile weapons.
>
> I sort of agree. I would make it this way:
> smaller shields are fairly good in melee (against single opponents, not
> groups), but not great agains missiles.
> bigger shields are better against missiles, but worse in melee.

It's fascinating to see just how much opinions vary on the
effectiveness of shields, how much it needs fixing, and what to do
about it. The average seems to be towards "somewhat ineffective,"
"somewhat needs fixing," and "YABLEOWUSOEDKWLELSOAHEKIMUGL QUIET DOWN
EVERYBODY!"

> gourmand or rage. Amulet of gourmand is evil because it removes
> advantage of many obscure races like kobold, ogre, hill orc, troll who
> are able to eat chunks with little side effects and in some cases even
> to 'full' status.

When it appears, then that's absolutely true. However, in very many
games it appears long after most of the period when you would have
appreciated it.

Brent's solution in 4.1 was, to oversimplify, to never lets the AotG
improve contaminated chunks to clean, let alone rotting chunks to clean
-- those go to Contaminated instead. Contaminated are the kind from
corpses of orcs, humans, elves, etc. Do you think you would better
enjoy a Crawl with that type of an AotG? When I first saw the idea, I
was almost angered by it Very Happy, but your point -- that (again, WHEN an
early AotG appears) it makes contaminated chunk resistance less
interesting -- is a good one.

> Amulet of rage is too powerful for my taste.

I strongly disagree. There are sooo many reasons for people who might
want to wear one of these to wear another amulet instead --
conservation is as good, clarity is as good if you value prevention of
rare instadeaths, resist slowing is as good if you can find another way
to berserk, resist mutation is near-vital in the endgame. Rage is
extremely powerful in the opening, when the difference between a
berserked you and an unberserked you is more powerful, but that period
ends soon. There's a reason why many wins with berserk-capable
characters contain the line "I rare berserked after the midgame." But
for those rare occasions, well, by the endgame, if you're not going to
be wearing an AoRM, then better for berserking is AoRS plus another
source -- by that time, you'll have one.

> Especially potions of Berserk are quite pointless for such a rare item.

This I agree with, however. Perhaps a character berserk from one of
these should never pass out? Or they should have the side effect of
providing about a choko's worth of satiation?

[ideas]

Again, I'm no fan of ideas until there aren't criticisms from all sides
of the balance for various existing "ideas" (shields, rods, items of
summoning, missile weapons, polearms, etc.)

> Unfortunately, Brent Ross seems to be more interested in limiting
> choices, it seems. From what I heard, he came up with an idea of
> Unarmed bonus at Dex 15, and weapons limited by stats. GOGO Ogre Mages,
> now you have to pump all your points into Str and wear rings of Str
> just to use your racial ability.

My guess is that Brent sees dexterity as being much more beneficial
than strength in b26, and, watching rgrm as poorly as he does (harsh,
but true), he doesn't realize that, rightly or wrongly, the player-base
places strength on a pedestal again and again, so he wanted to provide
stronger reasons for players to invest in strength. Very Happy

Incidentally, my experience with the 4.1 unarmed bonus is that it's too
all-or-nothing, at least early on (which is the period that counts most
anyway.) And my experience with the Str requirements is that while I
don't think they were quite as necessary as Brent believed, I'm not
bothered by them in principle, but they do often seem to be harshly
high, e.g. the Ogre Mages you mentioned. Hell, even Ogres themselves
have trouble crossing the line. (OTOH Ogres are better from turn 1 in
4.1 than in b26, so it doesn't matter as much as it might.)

e.
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lemuel.pitkin

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Since: Aug 01, 2006
Posts: 33



(Msg. 9) Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:58 am
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sterjs RemoveThis @gmail.com wrote:

>> 10. Suppose the chance of leaving a corpse depended on the attack form.
> Does this really add to the game?

It's another factor to consider when choosing a weapon type.

Denis wrote:

>> what if an artifact weapon could have multiple brands
> Multiple brands could be fun, would have to be rare though.

No objections yet to this one (beside the general
not-time-for-new-features, but this is also a balancing change.) It's
always seemed to me that the very best artifact weapons should offer
better melee attacks than any non-artifact, which isn't the case now
except in a few special cases.

B0rsuk wrote:

>Amulet of gourmand is evil because it removes
>advantage of many obscure races like kobold, ogre, hill orc, troll who
>are able to eat chunks with little side effects and in some cases even
>to 'full' status. You don't even have to keep " of gourmand on your
>neck, you just wear it when it's safe to eat.

Agree. The last point is key. There's no real tradeoff with gourmand
because you can get the full benefit while wearing something else 95%
of the time. What if gourmand (or all amulets for that matter) only
took effect once you'd been wearing it for 100 turns or something?
("Your palate feels more sophisticated," at which point it would
auto-ID.)

>- a monster that blocks line of sight (either very big, or a cloud of
>some sort)
>- a monster which prevents you from moving (and lowers your dodging) as
>long as you're adjacent to it.
>- a monster that can switch places with other monsters.
>- a monster which flees and eats corpses to regain strength
>- gremlin: small, fast, cowardous, screams for help when threatened
>(like scroll of noise). Moves safely over traps.
>- a spellcaster that heals other monsters, buffs them, teleports
>monsters from other parts of level

I like these a lot, especially the last one. Doesn't 4.1 allow
monsters in general to switch places, tho? I hope this is going to be
done in a way that's logical, e.g. only if the monsters are of
"allied" types or if they're both small.

> A god of Trickery/Adventure.

I was thinking of something very similar. In other words, a
speedrunner's god.

Enurmi wrote:

>Madness seems a good idea, although a character
>that has high Enchantment skill propably values his intelligence and
>would not use this. Perhaps some other downside?

My other thought was that it could confuse/slow/paralyze you when
wielded, the same model as distortion.

>> 10. Suppose the chance of leaving a corpse depended on the attack form.
>I agree on this one!

Well, that makes two of us.

Lemuel
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lemuel.pitkin

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Posts: 33



(Msg. 10) Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:02 am
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erisdiscordia wrote:

> > or let use of element-linked items practice elemental skills.
>
> Simple to implement, suggested more than once... maybe I'd add 2
> things: a requirement to have at least 1 level of Spellcasting before
> usage can cause training, and a "naughty" flag for Trog, since it would
> look funny for players to go about repeatedly training a magical skill
> (outside the unavoidable 1 Spellcasting level from scrolls) without
> Trog caring.
>
> Stones of Earth Elementals could become balance problems here (5 levels
> of Earth magic is really easy to get) even with the "must have some
> Spellcasting first" restriction, so they should provide a bit less
> training.

Or increase the skill for friendlies to 10. Otherwise, sounds like a
great solution to me.

Lemuel
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erisdiscordia

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Since: Apr 20, 2005
Posts: 381



(Msg. 11) Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:21 am
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lemuel.pitkin DeleteThis @gmail.com wrote:
> sterjs DeleteThis @gmail.com wrote:

[To all: sorry for spamming rgrm so much lately.]

> >> 10. Suppose the chance of leaving a corpse depended on the attack form.
> > Does this really add to the game?
>
> It's another factor to consider when choosing a weapon type.

But a larger number of smaller factors (or worse yet, a large variety
of factors, some large, some small) is harder to balance than a smaller
number of medium-to-large factors.

> Denis wrote:
>
> >> what if an artifact weapon could have multiple brands
> > Multiple brands could be fun, would have to be rare though.
>
> No objections yet to this one (beside the general
> not-time-for-new-features, but this is also a balancing change.)

You're right, it's a balancing change. That I passed it over in my
reply was an error of ommission.

> It's
> always seemed to me that the very best artifact weapons should offer
> better melee attacks than any non-artifact, which isn't the case now
> except in a few special cases.

I agree. Brent apparently also agrees, but his solution was simpler:
tighten the hard and soft limits for scrolls of enchant weapon, and
bork the Speed ego. There's something to said for simple. Your solution
*is* way cool, however, and less player-hostile than "punishing"
ego-weapon use. On the other hand, the player-hostile simple solution
could just be compensated with fighter-friendliness somewhere else.

I think "Ego > artifact" is also a problem for b26 armours, would you
agree? Mark Mackey reports that armour enchantment limits in 4.1 are
tied to the armour's base protection. Wave goodbye to "ascension
kit-like" status for robes of resistance if that's true.

[B0rsuk monster suggestions, including, erm, something that makes the
following relevant :-$]

> I like these a lot, especially the last one. Doesn't 4.1 allow
> monsters in general to switch places, tho? I hope this is going to be
> done in a way that's logical, e.g. only if the monsters are of
> "allied" types or if they're both small.

The alpha has monsters not caring too much about "alliances." I've seen
a wounded snake flee past a gnoll before, for example. (Dang!) There is
some attention paid to hitdice, though, and to social hierarchies for
same-species monsters (e.g. orc knights shoving past orc warriors, in
some way somehow that I don't know what it is that's not just a matter
of them having more hitdice).

> >> 10. Suppose the chance of leaving a corpse depended on the attack form.
> >I agree on this one!
>
> Well, that makes two of us.

Aaaaaargh! Smile

e.
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lemuel.pitkin

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Posts: 33



(Msg. 12) Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:37 am
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erisdiscordia wrote:

> a larger number of smaller factors (or worse yet, a large variety
> of factors, some large, some small) is harder to balance than a smaller
> number of medium-to-large factors.

OK.

> > It's
> > always seemed to me that the very best artifact weapons should offer
> > better melee attacks than any non-artifact, which isn't the case now
> > except in a few special cases.
>
> I agree. Brent apparently also agrees, but his solution was simpler:
> tighten the hard and soft limits for scrolls of enchant weapon, and
> bork the Speed ego. There's something to said for simple. Your solution
> *is* way cool, however, and less player-hostile than "punishing"
> ego-weapon use. On the other hand, the player-hostile simple solution
> could just be compensated with fighter-friendliness somewhere else.

See, this was my point. Brent's change makes artifacts and ego weapons
*more similar*. My suggestion makes them *more distinct*. That's the
issue, not that it's bad for players (which as you say can always be
compensated for elsewhere).

>
> I think "Ego > artifact" is also a problem for b26 armours, would you
> agree? Mark Mackey reports that armour enchantment limits in 4.1 are
> tied to the armour's base protection. Wave goodbye to "ascension
> kit-like" status for robes of resistance if that's true.

Armor seems like less of a problem, (1) because enchant armor scrolls
are rarer relative to the number of them you need, (2) armor is more
likely to be damaged by acid, so that advantage of artifacts counts for
more, and (3) choosing artifact armor mainly for resistances seems more
reasonable than choosing artifact weapons for that reason.

> The alpha has monsters not caring too much about "alliances." I've seen
> a wounded snake flee past a gnoll before, for example. (Dang!) There is
> some attention paid to hitdice, though, and to social hierarchies for
> same-species monsters (e.g. orc knights shoving past orc warriors, in
> some way somehow that I don't know what it is that's not just a matter
> of them having more hitdice).

That's disappointing. Only letting monsters of the same or related
species move past each other would make more sense, preserve some
important strategies (e.g. for killing UHs), and make monster types
more distinct. I wonder if he'll reconsider?

Lemuel
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Denis

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Since: Dec 16, 2005
Posts: 150



(Msg. 13) Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:53 am
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lemuel.pitkin.DeleteThis@gmail.com wrote:
> Having finally beaten this game, I feel ready to suggest improvements.
> A broad principle and then some ideas.

Is someone willing to impliment the simple improvements into 4.00b26 ?
There were several people working with the code or willing to maintain
the game.

I think we should compile a list of some things that we all agree need
to be improved/weakened with quantified changes. Then someone can edit
the code to include them.
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thiskidrob

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Since: Dec 17, 2005
Posts: 55



(Msg. 14) Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:00 am
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>
> 9. Make doors matter somehow. If pillar-dancing is eliminated (it does
> seem un-Crawl-like), there should be some way to use doors to get away
> from pursuers, at least if they can't open them. Maybe the solution
> is to make it easier to open up a space from a pursuer, but make nearby
> monsters follow you up stairs with a couple turn delay. So closing a
> door would be the best way to get time to rest - especially if there
> were some way to lock it.


I don't see how pillar dancing in non Crawl like. Crawl is a roguelike
game. This is a basic strategy of a roguelike game, just like fighting
monsters in a corridor to take them on one at a time.

If you were in the dungeon, and you wanted to escape with the orb, and
your life was on the line, wouldn't you do everything you could,
including running around a pillar from a monster, in order to save your
life?

Hell yes you would. You wouldn't just sit there and die for some
unknown reason!
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erisdiscordia

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Since: Apr 20, 2005
Posts: 381



(Msg. 15) Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:20 am
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lemuel.pitkin DeleteThis @gmail.com wrote:
> erisdiscordia wrote:

> > > It's
> > > always seemed to me that the very best artifact weapons should offer
> > > better melee attacks than any non-artifact, which isn't the case now
> > > except in a few special cases.
> >
> > I agree. Brent apparently also agrees, but his solution was simpler:
> > tighten the hard and soft limits for scrolls of enchant weapon, and
> > bork the Speed ego. There's something to said for simple. Your solution
> > *is* way cool, however, and less player-hostile than "punishing"
> > ego-weapon use. On the other hand, the player-hostile simple solution
> > could just be compensated with fighter-friendliness somewhere else.
>
> See, this was my point. Brent's change makes artifacts and ego weapons
> *more similar*. My suggestion makes them *more distinct*. That's the
> issue, not that it's bad for players (which as you say can always be
> compensated for elsewhere).

Artifacts are already the only weapons that can have susceptibilities,
mutagenicness/noisiness, resistances, activations, stat modifiers, and
defensive modifiers, the only weapons that are change-immune (for good
and for ill), and are the only weapons that can break the ego
restriction rules for weapon generation. That's already pretty
distinct! So I don't see a need to make them more distinct. But, I'm
just one guy.

I don't see limiting ego max enchantments as making them more similar
to artifacts, though -- just as making them a less dominant
*competitor* to artifacts.

> > I think "Ego > artifact" is also a problem for b26 armours, would you
> > agree? Mark Mackey reports that armour enchantment limits in 4.1 are
> > tied to the armour's base protection. Wave goodbye to "ascension
> > kit-like" status for robes of resistance if that's true.
>
> Armor seems like less of a problem, (1) because enchant armor scrolls
> are rarer relative to the number of them you need,

I'm not sure about that. Body armours only have one plus to increase,
rather than two. And one's only working towards +8 instead of +9. And
accessory armours worth enchanting often already come with one or both
pluses towards their limit. To play devil's advocate to myself, though,
a lot of artifact accessory armours are good competitors to ego ones.
(This also speaks against your "enchant armour is rarer" argument,
though, as wherever you can fill in with an artifact piece, you've
saved two scrolls.) However, it's easy to compete when they're
competing with a max of +2, rather than of +8.

> (2) armor is more likely to be damaged by acid, so that advantage
> of artifacts counts for more,

Acid damage is a pretty insignificant issue if you're careful around
its sources. Jellies and spiny worms are slower than the player,
jellies and acid blobs give warning messages when you're on a level
with one, etc. So usually exposing armour to acid is a matter of
inexperience, lack of knowledge of the alternatives, or laziness. The
exception is Oklob plants, but whole games can go by with no Oklob
plants, and you only really need to suffer one round of corrosion
unless you're deathly short on scrolls of blinking.

> and (3) choosing artifact armor mainly for resistances seems more
> reasonable than choosing artifact weapons for that reason.

You're far less likely to accidentally switch one out, true. But
resistance to fire, cold, magic (hrm), negative energy (hrm) and poison
are already available from ego armours. That leaves multiple
resistances and other randart-style benefits, but it's sooo rare to
find a combination of randart-style benefits and enchantment level that
beats out an already-attainable ego armour (or dragon armour) for more
than a small portion of a given game.

> > The alpha has monsters not caring too much about "alliances." I've seen
> > a wounded snake flee past a gnoll before, for example. (Dang!) There is
> > some attention paid to hitdice, though, and to social hierarchies for
> > same-species monsters (e.g. orc knights shoving past orc warriors, in
> > some way somehow that I don't know what it is that's not just a matter
> > of them having more hitdice).
>
> That's disappointing. Only letting monsters of the same or related
> species move past each other would make more sense, preserve some
> important strategies (e.g. for killing UHs), and make monster types
> more distinct.

I agree. The behavior also just plain felt unnatural -- unless the
whole dungeon population is one big borg hivemind all out to get the
player, then what motivation does that gnoll have to be nice to that
wounded snake?

e.
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