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Since: Mar 23, 2005 Posts: 42
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:04 pm
Post subject: Conditional Rationalization, or Avoiding a Wood Shampoo Archived from groups: alt>games>whitewolf (more info?)
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My usual players are very good at telling stories. Ironically, they
are better at telling Mage stories than I am.
I had originally pushed for the Mage world to be very surreal, like a
planet-wide drug trip, with such a bizarre, whimsical tone that there
were effectively no Sleeper witnesses for most magic. That vision
never worked out in play; at best, we had a bizarre, panicky bad acid
trip that scared the hell out of the players.
My players passed the conch of Story-telling, giving me a chance to
play, and their visions agreed much more closely with each other and
with the mainstream White Wolf stuff. It was basically a superhero
game, with almost no surreal or New Age elements, strongly grounded in
a common-sense Sleeper reality. They told some really excellent
action-adventure stories.
The usual players had a concept that Reality itself, the Tellurian,
almost always functioned as a Sleeper witness. Only in very few
situations could one work vulgar magic without witnesses. Throwing a
fireball at a room full of vampires was no problem -- vampires were
supernatural themselves and used Disciplines all the time. But having
a Umbrood cross the Gauntlet and do tasks in the normal world, even
without any witnesses, was vulgar, because in the absence of other
witnesses, the Tellurian itself was rather like a Sleeper.
After the new book comes out, I'll start a campaign with new players,
who are naive about Mage and who don't have the same preconceptions as
my usual group. One trick I'm planning on using -- first with NPCs,
but the PCs will know about its existence, is the following:
Conditional Rationalization (4 Time, 3 Mind)
Before going out into public, the mage prepares (a) mental images which
can confuse perception of paranormal events, and (b) mental
interpretations that can rationalize reasoning about paranormal events.
These effects are hung outside time, and will be broadcast to any mind
perceiving the mage's vulgar magick. Each use of the rote produces a
limited number of successes that are used up as witnesses are fooled.
Example in use: Ronny Elvis, Cultist of Ecstasy, uses the rote before
going outside to juggle Volkswagen Beetles, outrun the 9:15 from
Sacramento, and turn dumpsters in flaming spears. He rolls twenty
successes. In the parking lot, a crowd of passer-by cannot help but
notice the fact that VW Beetles, which weigh at least a ton, are being
thrown through the air. Conditional Rationalization kicks in, and
everyone in the crowd "recalls" that similar "freak windstorms" were
noticed during the recent Asian earthquakes. Because "freak
windstorms" do not involve hippie dudes, the crowd fails to notice
Ronny Elvis is picking up the cars: they just notice the cars in
motion. The crowd uses up seven successes and Ronny still has
thirteen.
Later, by the railroad tracks, a crowd of porters and travellers
notices Ronny moving beside the tracks, much faster than the train.
However, Conditional Rationalization kicks in and they all hallucinate
a motorcycle. They believe that a crazy man is riding a fast
motorcycle, not running on his own two feet. The crowd uses up seven
successes and Ronny still has six.
Later, Ronny picks up a dumpster and magickally sets it on fire. A
crowd of bemused senior citizens watch. The crowd requires seven
successes, but Ronny only has six. Paradox spirits coincidentally
provide the senior citizens with wooden bludgeons and unusually
vigorous upper-body strength. The onlookers decide that Ronny is
hopped up on meth and PCP, and close in to give that rotten hippie a
"wood shampoo," just like the good old days of the 1969 riots.
The weaker version (available to starting PCs) is called :
Very Fast Rationalization (3 Time, 3 Mind)
Very Fast Rationalization allows the mage to notice Sleeper witnesses
while the magick is still happening, before a coherent mental image has
formed, and uses Mind magick to distort perception on the fly.
.. . .
I don't claim the tricks above are original ... they're just something
I've never had a chance to work into a campaign quite as I had
envisioned. If used commonly, there might be no need for Blatancy.
In past campaigns, I loved Mind 3 illusions, but my players didn't.
They always backed down and let NPCs with illusory armies intimidate
them. >> Stay informed about: Conditional Rationalization, or Avoiding a Wood Shampoo |
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Since: Jan 23, 2005 Posts: 97
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 11:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Conditional Rationalization, or Avoiding a Wood Shampoo [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Rip Rock wrote:
> After the new book comes out, I'll start a campaign with new players,
> who are naive about Mage and who don't have the same preconceptions
as
> my usual group.
A Mage: the Awakening game? Then what Spheres, Vulgar Magic, and
Tellurian are you talking about?^^
Or did you mean you'll start a new Mage 2nd/Rev game? In which case,
such Mind effects *could* work, if you're not going with the strict
definition of "Reality itself as witness" you cite above. You kind of
have to wonder, tho, why Magi in general wouldn't have twigged onto
that a long time ago. If they have, then Paradox as we know it changes
considerably...But that's certainly a valid take! Hell, you can just
tell your current players that you're Golden Ruling a different take on
Consensus, surely? The book even *says* you can, in case they
disagree!^__^
Dex,
liking the idea of Magick as a world-wide acid trip...^^ >> Stay informed about: Conditional Rationalization, or Avoiding a Wood Shampoo |
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Since: Mar 23, 2005 Posts: 42
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:23 am
Post subject: Re: Conditional Rationalization, or Avoiding a Wood Shampoo [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Hand-of-Omega wrote:
> Rip Rock wrote:
> > After the new book comes out, I'll start a campaign with new
players,
> > who are naive about Mage and who don't have the same preconceptions
> as
> > my usual group.
>
> A Mage: the Awakening game? Then what Spheres, Vulgar Magic, and
> Tellurian are you talking about?^^
I hadn't heard that the Awakening was going to get rid of that stuff.
I haven't heard anything substantial. Are there any decent rumor sites
on the web? I didn't see anything on the whitewolf site...
>
> Or did you mean you'll start a new Mage 2nd/Rev game?
At the rate I'm going, there might not be much Mage left when I get
done making the house rules.
[boring ST rant moved to bottom...]
> In which case,
> such Mind effects *could* work, if you're not going with the strict
> definition of "Reality itself as witness" you cite above.
It's not explicit in the rules. The rules promote a logically naive
concept of positivism that wouldn't last five minutes at a math
department whiteboard.
[boring math rant moved to bottom...]
> You kind of
> have to wonder, tho, why Magi in general wouldn't have twigged onto
> that a long time ago.
Probably because while it eliminates some Paradox, it doesn't eliminate
all Paradox, because the effect is still vulgar and vulgar effects
generate Paradox even if no one witnesses them.
Also, if you're not in permanent Quiet *before* processing Mind
Paradox, you might go in afterward.
One long-running character in a campaign became a Marauder and was
taken out of play.
> If they have, then Paradox as we know it changes
> considerably...
Well, the rules are not consistent, complete, or unambiguous, so most
groups have several conflicting notions of Paradox as they know it.
My usual group had to eliminate Blatancy because we couldn't agree on
how to use it.
> But that's certainly a valid take! Hell, you can just
> tell your current players that you're Golden Ruling a different take
on
> Consensus, surely?
I don't know of anywhere in any edition of the rules where they ever
really defined Consensus to my satisfaction, giving sufficient examples
of how to apply it to specific effects.
If you could be more specific, it would help me. Thanks.
> The book even *says* you can, in case they
> disagree!^__^
>
> Dex,
> liking the idea of Magick as a world-wide acid trip...^^
I'm glad you like that idea. I think my original vision for the
campaign would have flown better if more of the players had been able
to draw on personal experiences of psychedelic drugs.
And anyone who isn't bored already probably should stop reading now,
before I start hideously dry monologues about obscure trivia.
....
[boring ST rant]
Currently I want to put points on paradigms and foci. The original
game design irritated me to no end because it would spark debates about
how paradigms ought to interact.
My current thought is to break down paradigms into logical components
and to describe sphere effects as predicate logic claims. Then, if a
claim holds in a logical set of axioms corresponding to a dominant
paradigm, it produces no paradox -- otherwise it does.
White Wolf lumped together various ill-defined effects -- more than 45
effects lump together into 45 sphere levels. So any effects that are
going to stay need to be separated and defined over an appropriate set
with a manageable number of elements -- I hope fewer than twenty
elements.
Ironically, doing predicate logic is more fun (to me) than trying to
prepare background material, so even if Mage: the Awakening makes the
predicate logic useless for the game, it might still be a fun/useful
exercise.
[boring math rant]
Mathematics tends to neo-platonistic idealism; physics tends toward
special pleading to promote materialism. (Note that such special
pleading, while an informal fallacy, might well be rational. It just
bothers me that physicists are unwilling to notice themselves doing
it.) And psychology would say that humans are so bad at observation
that most Sleeper witnesses would only see what they wanted to see
anyway, so the issue is moot. >> Stay informed about: Conditional Rationalization, or Avoiding a Wood Shampoo |
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Since: Jan 23, 2005 Posts: 97
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Conditional Rationalization, or Avoiding a Wood Shampoo [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Rip Rock wrote:
> Hand-of-Omega wrote:
> > Rip Rock wrote:
> > > After the new book comes out, I'll start a campaign with new
> players,
> > > who are naive about Mage and who don't have the same
preconceptions
> > as
> > > my usual group.
> >
> > A Mage: the Awakening game? Then what Spheres, Vulgar Magic, and
> > Tellurian are you talking about?^^
>
> I hadn't heard that the Awakening was going to get rid of that stuff.
> I haven't heard anything substantial. Are there any decent rumor
sites
> on the web? I didn't see anything on the whitewolf site...
>
No, absolutely nothing. Maybe Stephenls has heard something? All I know
is, none of that stuff is promised to be in it, and they said that Mage
was the most changed of all the games. We'll see...
>
> >
> > Dex,
> > liking the idea of Magick as a world-wide acid trip...^^
>
> I'm glad you like that idea. I think my original vision for the
> campaign would have flown better if more of the players had been able
> to draw on personal experiences of psychedelic drugs.
>
You might want to refer them to the writings of Phillip K. Dick and
Grant Morrison, as well as...[tries to think of some good psychedelic
films]
>
> White Wolf lumped together various ill-defined effects -- more than
45
> effects lump together into 45 sphere levels. So any effects that are
> going to stay need to be separated and defined over an appropriate
set
> with a manageable number of elements -- I hope fewer than twenty
> elements.
>
I actually had a dream where I found an advance copy of MtA in a
bookstore, but didn't have time to sit and read it!>_< One of the
things I remember seeing when flipping thru it was that there were 3
Spheres, I think for Body/Mind/Spirit...
Dex >> Stay informed about: Conditional Rationalization, or Avoiding a Wood Shampoo |
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Since: Aug 06, 2004 Posts: 453
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:26 am
Post subject: Re: Conditional Rationalization, or Avoiding a Wood Shampoo [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Hand-of-Omega wrote:
> No, absolutely nothing. Maybe Stephenls has heard something? All I know
> is, none of that stuff is promised to be in it, and they said that Mage
> was the most changed of all the games. We'll see...
Well, there's the most recent WW LJ post by Justin:
http://www.white-wolf.com/lj.php
It's got M:tAw info but nothing really related to the setting or the system.
Beyond that, Justin said that M:tAw won't have paradigms in the old Mage
sense -- when he was asked to clarify what he meant by "not in the old
Mage sense" he said that that of course it'll have a paradigms in the
sense that all games have paradigms, because a paradigm is, like, if
you've got "the game is made to be played this way," that's a paradigm,
and without a paradigm the game wouldn't be a game. No game would be a
game without some paradigm at its foundation. D&D's paradigm, for
instance, is "tactical combat vs. monsters," while 3e's paradigm in
specific is "Back to the dungeon."
But it looks like paradigm won't actually be mentioned in the book as a
game element.
We don't know anything else. Coincidental, vulgar, spheres, no spheres,
traditions, technocracy, avatars, essences, we haven't heard anything
about any of it.
--
Stephenls
Geek
"You do your arguments no favor by insulting those you ought persuade."
-Greg Stolze, Rites of the Dragon >> Stay informed about: Conditional Rationalization, or Avoiding a Wood Shampoo |
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Since: Jan 23, 2005 Posts: 97
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 2:18 pm
Post subject: Re: Conditional Rationalization, or Avoiding a Wood Shampoo [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Stephenls wrote:
> Hand-of-Omega wrote:
>
> > No, absolutely nothing. Maybe Stephenls has heard something? All I
know
> > is, none of that stuff is promised to be in it, and they said that
Mage
> > was the most changed of all the games. We'll see...
>
> Well, there's the most recent WW LJ post by Justin:
>
> http://www.white-wolf.com/lj.php
>
Mage is being cancelled?! Sorry, I stopped reading at that line and
spread the news all over the net...(kidding!^^)
> It's got M:tAw info but nothing really related to the setting or the
system.
>
> But it looks like paradigm won't actually be mentioned in the book as
a
> game element.
>
So, my Mage can do Anything, Anything at all! Yeah, right. Somehow, I
doubt they're gonna make it that easy on us...^~
> We don't know anything else. Coincidental, vulgar, spheres, no
spheres,
> traditions, technocracy, avatars, essences, we haven't heard anything
> about any of it.
Well, didn't one of the Quarterlies get into detail about the general
Theme and Atmosphere? Sometime about Humanity being cursed into being
Sleepers since Ancient times, and Mages being the ones who have thrown
off the Curse to Awaken...Wonder who did the cursing and if they're
still about? Umbrood? I also wonder if the setting will be made to fit
in smoothly with the previous two games?
Vampire has always been, and continues to be, largely spiritually
blind, so no worries there. Werewolves and Mages, however, have always
had connected backyards. Will Magi go to the same Shadow world that
Werewolves do or another Spirit world entirely, if any? Food for
thought...
Dex >> Stay informed about: Conditional Rationalization, or Avoiding a Wood Shampoo |
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Since: Mar 23, 2005 Posts: 42
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:21 am
Post subject: Re: Conditional Rationalization, or Avoiding a Wood Shampoo [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Since: Jan 23, 2005 Posts: 97
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 12:46 pm
Post subject: Mage Updates? (Re: Conditional Rationalization, or Avoiding [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Since: Aug 06, 2004 Posts: 453
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 3:13 am
Post subject: Re: Mage Updates? (Re: Conditional Rationalization, or Avoid [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Hand-of-Omega wrote:
> Any idea when we can start expecting previews of Mage concepts on WWs
> website?
No. I'd guess soon, though -- the other two games each got roughly
three months' worth of spoilers, and three months before GenCon is the
end of May. So... 'bout a month, maybe?
--
Stephenls
Geek
"You do your arguments no favor by insulting those you ought persuade."
-Greg Stolze, Rites of the Dragon >> Stay informed about: Conditional Rationalization, or Avoiding a Wood Shampoo |
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