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Related Topics:
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Problem with a comp game - I hope I'm not breaking the rules by asking this, but what should I do with a game that I'm stuck on due to a bug? (I won't name the game, Do I have to either not rate the game, or rate it purely on the part I before
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External
Since: Nov 05, 2007
Posts: 30
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:14 pm
Post subject: IF Comp winners
Archived from groups: rec>games>int-fiction (more info?)
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I am thinking about the kinds of things that appeal to judges the most in IF
comp games ...
From a brief look, it seems that the winning games tend to have things like:
- a memorable PC (Lost Pig)
- a detailed story line (Floatpoint)
- thorough implementation (Lost Pig)
- original puzzles (The Edifice)
- fun things to do (Another Earth, Another Sky)
- unique / thought provoking concepts (Slouching Towards Bedlam, Photopia)
- surprise endings (name withheld)
- an immersive setting (Winter Wonderland)
Any others?
Which of these would you consider essential in a game to give it 10/10?
David Fisher |
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Posts: 30
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:34 pm
Post subject: Re: IF Comp winners [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"David Fisher" <davidfisher.DeleteThis@australiaonline.net.au> wrote in message
news:1196565247.302176@kangaroo.ozonline.com.au...
>I am thinking about the kinds of things that appeal to judges the most in
>IF comp games ...
>
> From a brief look, it seems that the winning games tend to have things
> like:
>
> - a memorable PC (Lost Pig)
> - a detailed story line (Floatpoint)
> - thorough implementation (Lost Pig)
> - original puzzles (The Edifice)
> - fun things to do (Another Earth, Another Sky)
> - unique / thought provoking concepts (Slouching Towards Bedlam, Photopia)
> - surprise endings (name withheld)
> - an immersive setting (Winter Wonderland)
....
> Which of these would you consider essential in a game to give it 10/10?
(Taking the risk of appearing to be insane by answering myself ... guess I'm
in a talkative frame of mind ...)
For me, it depends on the type of game:
* A pure puzzle game would have to have to be *very* interesting and
engaging for me to give it a maximum score (eg. "All Things Devours"). It
wouldn't have to be completely original, but there would need to be things
that weren't immediately obvious, and progressive education of the player in
how the world works. The initial premise wouldn't need to be completely
convincing, but everything afterwards would need to be internally consistant
and reasonable -- nothing arbitrary or too obscure (difficult is OK, as long
as it makes sense in retrospect). The conclusion would have to be somehow
satisfying as well; "you have solved the puzzle" wouldn't be enough of a
reward.
And -- it would need to be either fun (eg. Gourmet) or fascinating (eg.
Metamorphoses).
* A story-oriented game would need to have an interesting setting,
believable characters, and either a way for me to influence the story
significantly or have a very convincing reason to be linear. The story would
need to either have proper closure or have a clear set of possibilities at
the end; it is annoying if a major question is raised and not answered by
the end (though it is OK if there are clearly multiple paths through the
story, and you need to play several / all of them to get the whole picture).
It would need to be at least a little unpredictable, but not too full of
twists either. There would need to be some kind of overall theme or idea
that struck me.
* Whatever its type, if the game doesn't seem to have any goal (eg. if it is
just about contemplating a concept), I might give it a high score in the Art
Show, but not for the IF Comp.
* If the game doesn't have any particular type (just a whole lot of
unrelated events / places / concepts), that doesn't work very well for me
either.
Just some rambling thoughts,
David Fisher |
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Since: Dec 05, 2007
Posts: 2
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:11 am
Post subject: Re: IF Comp winners [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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> The initial premise wouldn't need to be completely
> convincing, but everything afterwards would need to be internally consistant
> and reasonable -- nothing arbitrary or too obscure (difficult is OK, as long
> as it makes sense in retrospect).
I guess this is the idea with science fiction. It's obviously not
based in reality but
a lot more enjoyable if it is internally consistent. It's interesting
that no matter
how fantastic as idea is, so long as it fits the story people won't be
left thinking,
"as if."
>The conclusion would have to be somehow
> satisfying as well; "you have solved the puzzle" wouldn't be enough of a
> reward.
This I think comes back to the game world the author has created. If
solving
a puzzle rewards the player with an object that is of value in the
game world,
and that value had been well crafted and conveyed before the puzzle
is
reached/ solved, then I think it is worthwhile.
> * A story-oriented game would need to have an interesting setting,
This is something I am struggling with at the moment. I am about to
start
writing a new game, and although I have chosen an interesting setting
it
is one that I don't have any personal experience with. This of course
means
that it will all come down to how well I do my research. I'm still in
two minds
though: do something interesting from research or write about
something
more everyday and draw on intimate personal experience...
> Just some rambling thoughts,
>
> David Fisher
Can't let you have a monopoly on rambling,
Stuart >> Stay informed about: IF Comp winners |
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Posts: 3
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:22 am
Post subject: Re: IF Comp winners [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Dec 1, 10:14 pm, "David Fisher"
<davidfis....RemoveThis@australiaonline.net.au> wrote:
> I am thinking about the kinds of things that appeal to judges the most in IF
> comp games ...
>
> From a brief look, it seems that the winning games tend to have things like:
>
> - a memorable PC (Lost Pig)
> - a detailed story line (Floatpoint)
> - thorough implementation (Lost Pig)
> - original puzzles (The Edifice)
> - fun things to do (Another Earth, Another Sky)
> - unique / thought provoking concepts (Slouching Towards Bedlam, Photopia)
> - surprise endings (name withheld)
> - an immersive setting (Winter Wonderland)
>
> Any others?
>
> Which of these would you consider essential in a game to give it 10/10?
>
> David Fisher
When I rate games for the competition, I score in four
categories:
The quality of the writing: about 40% for sentence structure, 50% for
over all story structure and 1 part for spelling and grammar and
spelling
The technical quality of the games: a game should have no obvious
bugs. But for full score in this category, the game also needs to be
a significant departure from the standard library of verbs and object
types. All Things Devours scored high in technical quality a few
years back, because I recognized the difficult programming involved in
this game. Lost Pig would have scored high (if I'd gotten to it
before the end of the competition) because so many of the default
messages have been modified.
The depth of implementation: Ideally, the map should cover a wide
area, and every object in the game should be examinable down to its
smallest part. Since comp games are limited to two hours, I don't
expect every map to be quite as sprawling as it was in this year's
Chinese Room, however in these less sprawling games, I expect a
correspondingly deeper level of implementation within those few
locations (as we saw in this year's Lord Bellwater).
Finally, I rate my "over all enjoyment of the game". Games lose
points if they are set on board a space ship, or start me out in bed
waking up from a nap. Points are lost if the technical and literary
aspects of the game are so bad they detract from my enjoyment. Points
are gained if the game is amusing, or makes me think, or if it allows
multiple solutions to problems, and multiple endings. I loved last
year's Primrose Path, and this year's Act of Murder.
The most important of these categories in determining my overall
impression of the game is, of course, the last.
Dave >> Stay informed about: IF Comp winners |
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Since: Nov 16, 2007
Posts: 22
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:15 pm
Post subject: Re: IF Comp winners [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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stuart RemoveThis @animats.net writes:
>> * A story-oriented game would need to have an interesting setting,
>
> This is something I am struggling with at the moment. I am about to
> start writing a new game, and although I have chosen an interesting
> setting it is one that I don't have any personal experience with. This
> of course means that it will all come down to how well I do my
> research. I'm still in two minds though: do something interesting from
> research or write about something more everyday and draw on intimate
> personal experience...
I think one thing that attracted me to "The Chinese Room" was it's
interesting setting. No, I didn't get an impression of spectacular
worldbuilding or something, that is something I think novels do better
anyway, but I found myself in surroundings that intrigued me and made me
want to explor it to learn more.
So, I don't think "interesting setting" and "story-oriented games" need
to be tied exclusively together.
I'm not entirely sure I understand story-oriented games, by the
way. I've played a few games where the story was the important thing,
and me as a player was just to sit back and read, one in a while
prodding the story along. No setting in the world can save such a
"game".
/Andreas
--
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail? >> Stay informed about: IF Comp winners |
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Posts: 2
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:33 pm
Post subject: Re: IF Comp winners [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Dec 6, 6:00 am, "David Fisher" <davidfis....RemoveThis@australiaonline.net.au>
wrote:
> Now I'm curious about your setting! But perhaps that would be giving too
> much away ...
>
> David Fisher
It's nothing that amazing (or secret). At the moment I'm thinking of
doing a
game set in Darwin during the February 1942 bombings. I've always
liked
reading WWII books, but there doesn't seem to be much in the way of
WWII IF.
Of course having now read your post I'm going to have to scrap the
whole
sneak-past-the-pygmies puzzle.
Stuart >> Stay informed about: IF Comp winners |
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Posts: 7
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:09 pm
Post subject: Re: IF Comp winners [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Dec 5, 2:20 pm, "David Fisher" <davidfis... RemoveThis @australiaonline.net.au>
wrote:
> Mike Snyder wrote in his review of Orevore Courier
> (http://www.sidneymerk.com/comp07/orevore.shtml):
>
> In many ways, my own voting guidelines are rubbish. I've tried to
> describe what makes a game deserving of a given score by outlining
> what I look for in a good game. One like Orevore Courier can
> hardly be faulted for featuring a story without any real depth when
> it's supposed to be a puzzle box, not thought-provoking literature.
I don't have this codified into a numerical guideline, but I mostly
vote depending on
-- how well the work (whether game or story) achieves its goals
-- whether those goals were a) clear and b) worthwhile in the first
place
Everything else is commentary. As we've seen extensively this year
(Lost Pig, Deadline Enchanter), a specific vision can partly or wholly
suspend the usual standards about technical writing finesse or
implementation depth. Other elements -- the presence and quality of
puzzles, complexity of setting, characterization of NPCs -- are even
more dependent on what the author is trying to do. >> Stay informed about: IF Comp winners |
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Since: Nov 17, 2007
Posts: 9
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:41 pm
Post subject: Re: IF Comp winners [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Dec 5, 4:09 pm, Emily Short <emsh....DeleteThis@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> I don't have this codified into a numerical guideline, but I mostly
> vote depending on
>
> -- how well the work (whether game or story) achieves its goals
> -- whether those goals were a) clear and b) worthwhile in the first
> place
>
> Everything else is commentary. As we've seen extensively this year
> (Lost Pig, Deadline Enchanter), a specific vision can partly or wholly
> suspend the usual standards about technical writing finesse or
> implementation depth. Other elements -- the presence and quality of
> puzzles, complexity of setting, characterization of NPCs -- are even
> more dependent on what the author is trying to do.
I do try to vote with consistent criteria for every game -- when my
judging is spread out over a month or more I need some kind of
baseline. Though I've noticed some judges play all the games in such
little time that maybe they don't need any formal criteria.
My criteria are creativity (a catch-all for imagination, ideas, what
the IF is about), execution (how well the game plays), and WTF,
basically how far the author is pushing the envelope. >> Stay informed about: IF Comp winners |
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Since: Nov 16, 2007
Posts: 22
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:04 pm
Post subject: Re: IF Comp winners [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"David Fisher" <davidfisher.DeleteThis@australiaonline.net.au> writes:
> "dave" <dgenglish.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:b8abad19-e67e-446c-919b-f109479d447b@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> When I rate games for the competition, I score in four
>> categories:
>>
>> The quality of the writing
>> The technical quality of the games
>> The depth of implementation
>> Over all enjoyment of the game
>
> Sounds fair ...
>
> Do you ever come across a game that doesn't fit well with your scoring
> system? (I guess all types of game can have good or bad writing ... could
> you give 10/10 to a game with "average" technical quality or depth of
> implementation, or are they both absolute requirements for any game?)
>
> Mike Snyder wrote in his review of Orevore Courier
> (http://www.sidneymerk.com/comp07/orevore.shtml):
>
> In many ways, my own voting guidelines are rubbish. I've tried to
> describe what makes a game deserving of a given score by outlining
> what I look for in a good game. One like Orevore Courier can
> hardly be faulted for featuring a story without any real depth when
> it's supposed to be a puzzle box, not thought-provoking literature.
While I've only voted in one Comp I also think voting guidelines are
rubbish.
Do you like the game? That means it's above or at average -> at least 5
points. Do you like the writing? Add 2. Do you think the implementation
is leaking? Subtract 2. Add and subtract items that stuck in your mind
after 2 hours. Tally the final score.
It worked for me, at least for one comp.
/Andreas
--
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail? >> Stay informed about: IF Comp winners |
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Posts: 30
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:00 am
Post subject: Re: IF Comp winners [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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<stuart.RemoveThis@animats.net> wrote in message
news:ab956dd7-b730-4a24-9164-02c8023550d0@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
>> * A story-oriented game would need to have an interesting setting,
>
> This is something I am struggling with at the moment. I am
> about to start writing a new game, and although I have chosen
> an interesting setting it is one that I don't have any personal
> experience with. This of course means that it will all come
> down to how well I do my research. I'm still in two minds
> though: do something interesting from research or write about
> something more everyday and draw on intimate personal
> experience...
For me, I wouldn't be too worried about minor factual inaccuracies in an
unusual setting .. only if it was something glaringly obvious, like pygmies
living in Australia (featured in a Bugs Bunny cartoon once  ).
I would probably enjoy an interesting setting with minor inaccuracies more
than a mundane one that was 100% correct, come to think of it. (Not that
your personal experiences are necessarily mundane ...)
Now I'm curious about your setting! But perhaps that would be giving too
much away ...
David Fisher >> Stay informed about: IF Comp winners |
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:20 am
Post subject: Re: IF Comp winners [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"dave" <dgenglish RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b8abad19-e67e-446c-919b-f109479d447b@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
> When I rate games for the competition, I score in four
> categories:
>
> The quality of the writing
> The technical quality of the games
> The depth of implementation
> Over all enjoyment of the game
Sounds fair ...
Do you ever come across a game that doesn't fit well with your scoring
system? (I guess all types of game can have good or bad writing ... could
you give 10/10 to a game with "average" technical quality or depth of
implementation, or are they both absolute requirements for any game?)
Mike Snyder wrote in his review of Orevore Courier
(http://www.sidneymerk.com/comp07/orevore.shtml):
In many ways, my own voting guidelines are rubbish. I've tried to
describe what makes a game deserving of a given score by outlining
what I look for in a good game. One like Orevore Courier can
hardly be faulted for featuring a story without any real depth when
it's supposed to be a puzzle box, not thought-provoking literature.
David Fisher >> Stay informed about: IF Comp winners |
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Posts: 3
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:19 am
Post subject: Re: IF Comp winners [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Dec 5, 2:20 pm, "David Fisher" <davidfis....TakeThisOut@australiaonline.net.au>
wrote:
> "dave" <dgengl....TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:b8abad19-e67e-446c-919b-f109479d447b@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > When I rate games for the competition, I score in four
> > categories:
>
> > The quality of the writing
> > The technical quality of the games
> > The depth of implementation
> > Over all enjoyment of the game
>
> Sounds fair ...
>
> Do you ever come across a game that doesn't fit well with your scoring
> system? (I guess all types of game can have good or bad writing ... could
> you give 10/10 to a game with "average" technical quality or depth of
> implementation, or are they both absolute requirements for any game?)
>
snip
I can't claim that my scoring in the four categories you quoted
above are entirely independent of one another. If I really enjoy a
game, I might be willing to overlook weakness in the implementation,
which I would penalize severely in another game. But I try to be
consistent, and there is usually at least one game in a competition
which excells in all of these specific categories. So I couldn't
bring myself to give 10/10 to an otherwise enjoyable game which
doesn't.
Dave >> Stay informed about: IF Comp winners |
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:03 pm
Post subject: Re: IF Comp winners [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Emily Short" <emshort RemoveThis @mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:84b5feb4-7ee4-40f9-be94-151bd403d2d9@p69g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>
> I don't have this codified into a numerical guideline, but I mostly
> vote depending on
>
> -- how well the work (whether game or story) achieves its goals
> -- whether those goals were a) clear and b) worthwhile in the
> first place
Trying to think like a lawyer, I can't see any immediate "loopholes" in this
system ... b) sounds like it catches the cases where something might be
extremely well done but uninteresting.
It seems risky for IF Comp entries to be too experimental, since half of the
audience might not think the experiment was worthwhile. On the other hand,
being creative and original seems to be a highly sought after goal ...
It may be impossible to answer, but do some experimental directions seem
safer than others (in terms of not losing the audience)?
David Fisher >> Stay informed about: IF Comp winners |
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Posts: 1
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:37 pm
Post subject: Re: IF Comp winners [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"David Fisher"
> The depth of implementation: Ideally, the map should cover a wide
> area, and every object in the game should be examinable down to its
> smallest part. Since comp games are limited to two hours, I don't
> expect every map to be quite as sprawling as it was in this year's
> Chinese Room, however in these less sprawling games, I expect a
> correspondingly deeper level of implementation within those few
> locations (as we saw in this year's Lord Bellwater).
Just a couple of things to note:
Comp games aren't actually limited to two hours. The final score must
be awarded at the two hour mark, but I feel that having a game longer
than two hours is not a problem at all. In fact, if your game has a
richly implemented, deep world, then you can really hurt your game by
trying to cram all of this in two hours.
"every object in the game should be examinable down to its smallest
part" I agree with this statement whole-heartedly. Nothing breaks my
concentration and enjoyment of a game more than "I don't know
(noun)." Default message or not, if a noun is mentioned at ANY point
in game, it MUST be recognized by the game to avoid losing points in
my opinion. If you don't want to implement many nouns, then don't
fill your descriptions with nouns. Please note that I mean ALL nouns,
down to the nth level of detail.
That being said, if you don't want to implement the screwheads holding
the coffeemaker of dhoom together, that's fine. Just don't mention
them in any descriptive text.
just a few thoughts,
joker >> Stay informed about: IF Comp winners |
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