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Shawn Wilson

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Since: Nov 09, 2005
Posts: 72



(Msg. 1) Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 9:29 am
Post subject: Comments on some Neverwinter Nights race and class ideas wan
Archived from groups: alt>games>neverwinter-nights, others (more info?)

First, I don't like the given DnD Dwarf. It's all over the place and
doesn't feel 'real' or cohesive.

So, my ideas for changes-

Dwarves are not less well liked than other races, nor do they have weaker
personalities. The -2 Cha adjustment is thus inappropriate. Instead, since
Dwarves are a lot of things but they aren't fast or agile, substitute a -2
Dex adjustment. This also pushes them towards the heavier armors instead of
lighter, which is the stereotype. This makes them slightly weaker since Dex
is more important than Cha.


Since Giants, Orcs and Goblins don't get bonuses fighting dwarves, and
Dwarven society isn't so violent that *every single Dwarf* would have
experience fighting them, eliminate all the fighting syle feats. Another
(very) small weakening.


Instead of Hardiness v poisons and Hardiness v spells, substitute Iron Will
and Great Fortitude. As creatures of the Earth Dwarves have strong minds
and strong bodies, but there's no reason for a Dwarf to be able to dodge a
fireball better than any other race. They will be tough against most
everything, but will not like artillery type spells since they have no
reflex save bonus and have lower Dex. This is about a wash, gaining on the
uncommon will and fortitude saves, but losing on the more common reflex
saves.


Everything ese is the same.


I think this isn't unbalanced and feels more cohesive and meaningful.



The class ideas are limited by what can be done with a 2da file and existing
feats.


Class idea- Weapon Expert.

This is a basic Fighter-type prestige class and quasi replacement for Weapon
Master with more stuff going on-

Fighter skills and points
Fighter saves
Weapon Focus, Discipline 8+, BAB 5+, Int 13+


Feat at every level-

1 Improved Initiative
2 Disarm
3 Knockdown
4 Imp Critical
5 Weapon Specialization
6 Imp Disarm
7 Imp Knockdown
8 Epic Weapon Focus
9 Overwhelming Critical
10 Epic Weapon Specialization

For epic levels say a bonus feat every 2 levels

More feats than a Fighter would earn, but mostly the interesting but less
often used ones. He gets epic stuff early, but this *is* a prestige class.



Class idea- Knife Fighter

Agile fighter.

Rogue saves
4 skill points/level, (discipline, tumble, heal, lore, craft, parry, taunt,
concentration)
Dex 15+, Int 13+, BAB 7+, Weapon Focus (dagger), Weapon Finesse, Dodge,
Mobility

1 Imp Initiative
2 Weapon Finesse
3 Two weapon Fighting
4 Expertise
5 Ambidexterity
6 Spring Attack
7 Imp Two Weapon Fighting
8 Imp Expertise
9 Epic Weapon Focus (dagger)
10 Armor Skin



Class idea- Axe Murderer

Thug

Fighter saves
Fighter skills/points
Str 17+, Weapon Focus (greataxe), Power attack, BAB 5+

Imp Initiative
Imp Critical (greataxe)
Cleave
Imp Power Attack
Weapon Specialization (greataxe)
Great Cleave
Epic Weapon Focus (greataxe)
Overwhelming critical (greataxe)
Epic Weapon Specialization (greataxe)
Devastating Critical (greataxe)



Class idea- Coward

When trouble rears its ugly head, you're the first out the door...

Rogue saves
Fighter skills/points (+tumble, spot)
Dex 13+, Int 13+, BAB 5+, Dodge, Mobility, Persuade 5+ (to beg for your
life...), Alertness

1 Blooded (initiative and spot bonuses...)
2 Thug (initiative and persuade bonuses...)
3 Imp Initiative
4 Expertise
5 Spring Attack
6 Imp Expertise
7 Superior Initiative
8 Armor Skin
9 Blinding Speed
10 Epic Dodge


Class Idea- Academic Mage

You know more about spellcasiting then anyone, though you don't usually
actually practice...

Wizard saves
Wizard skills/points
Int 15+, Spell Focus, Courteous Magocracy
(note- doesn't add any spell levels)

Spell Penetration
Greater Spell Focus
Greater Spell Penetration
Silent Spell
Empower Spell
Extend Spell
Maximize Spell
Still Spell
Epic Spell Focus
Epic Spell Penetration

(if I can make this simply 10 generic wizard feats I will)

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Maxon

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Since: Mar 13, 2005
Posts: 1516



(Msg. 2) Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 3:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Comments on some Neverwinter Nights race and class ideas [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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This is how I play anyway - I'm not sure I'd grace it with a class all to
itself.

Best wishes
maxon

"Shawn Wilson" <ikonoqlast.DeleteThis@cox.net> wrote in message
news:4C55g.8065$QP4.7612@fed1read12...
> Class idea- Coward
>
> When trouble rears its ugly head, you're the first out the door...
>

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Rupert Boleyn

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Since: Apr 16, 2004
Posts: 1280



(Msg. 3) Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:55 pm
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On Sun, 30 Apr 2006 09:29:50 -0700, "Shawn Wilson"
<ikonoqlast DeleteThis @cox.net> wrote:

>Instead of Hardiness v poisons and Hardiness v spells, substitute Iron Will
>and Great Fortitude. As creatures of the Earth Dwarves have strong minds
>and strong bodies, but there's no reason for a Dwarf to be able to dodge a
>fireball better than any other race. They will be tough against most
>everything, but will not like artillery type spells since they have no
>reflex save bonus and have lower Dex. This is about a wash, gaining on the
>uncommon will and fortitude saves, but losing on the more common reflex
>saves.

This is not a wash - it further weakens the Dwarf, because they can't
take those feats later to stack with their racial bonuses. I grant
that it does make their entry into some PrCs easier, but I don't think
that's a balancing effect for most dwarves.

>I think this isn't unbalanced and feels more cohesive and meaningful.

So, you knock the dwarf back in two or three palces and still claim
they are 'balanced'? I've never seen them as being over-powered to
start with.
--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn DeleteThis @paradise.net.nz>
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Shawn Wilson

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Since: Nov 09, 2005
Posts: 72



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Comments on some Neverwinter Nights race and class ideas [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn.RemoveThis@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:cnda521g6euq1ea1n1k2h6rdjp5r9ohe6r@4ax.com...

>>Instead of Hardiness v poisons and Hardiness v spells, substitute Iron
>>Will
>>and Great Fortitude. As creatures of the Earth Dwarves have strong minds
>>and strong bodies, but there's no reason for a Dwarf to be able to dodge a
>>fireball better than any other race. They will be tough against most
>>everything, but will not like artillery type spells since they have no
>>reflex save bonus and have lower Dex. This is about a wash, gaining on
>>the
>>uncommon will and fortitude saves, but losing on the more common reflex
>>saves.
>
> This is not a wash - it further weakens the Dwarf, because they can't
> take those feats later to stack with their racial bonuses.


Eh... No one takes those feats anyway.

If it was PnP I could just make it +2 to Will and Fortitude saves, and still
allow the feats to be taken. But it's NWN and I can't. I could give them
Strong Soul (+1 Will +1 Fort, +1 v Death) but that seems too weak.



>>I think this isn't unbalanced and feels more cohesive and meaningful.
>
> So, you knock the dwarf back in two or three palces and still claim
> they are 'balanced'? I've never seen them as being over-powered to
> start with.


Well, the combat feats are about worthless in most campaigns.

+2 v poisons is worth a lot less than +2 to all fort saves, so that's a
plus.

+2 Will substitutes almost perfectly for +2 v spells as far as Will save
spells is concerned. I can't think of any non spell Will saves.

Reflex saves is a dead loss, and a significant one versus spells since it's
the most common save.

Dwarves also get some minor skill bennies and Darkvision.

I think on the whole they're reasonably well balanced my way.

But I would be interested in how you'd balance them. The only rule is that
those combat feats have got to go. And, while not a rule, I really like the
Will and Fort Save bennies better than poison and spell saves.
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Madkaugh

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Since: Jul 28, 2005
Posts: 561



(Msg. 5) Posted: Mon May 01, 2006 7:41 am
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Shawn Wilson wrote:

<Dwarven Waraxe and Dwarven Urgrosh>

> I don't know how to do that in NWN, and the Urgrosh doesn't exist anyway.

You can stuff that's not in the base game. If you add stat and
behavior scripting (bastard sword as a template) and backpack
graphics, you'd have a functional item; use a stock set of axe
animations.


> I could give Dwarves proficiency with all exotic weapons, but that's as close
> as I can get. Part of the difficulty is that I am limited to the Feats
> hardwired into the NWN game engine.

Giving Elves rapier, longsword, & longbow is probably
scripted, not hardwired. I'd check for that for sample code.


> In your opinion (and I mean everyone), what progression of Damage Resistance
> (three points at a time) and possibly a 1 time +2 to AC would best balance
> the normal +4 to AC and + 6 to DR progression?

You should be able to script the progression.


MadKaugh
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Rupert Boleyn

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Since: Apr 16, 2004
Posts: 1280



(Msg. 6) Posted: Mon May 01, 2006 7:55 am
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On Sun, 30 Apr 2006 15:47:09 -0700, "Shawn Wilson"
<ikonoqlast.DeleteThis@cox.net> wrote:

>+2 Will substitutes almost perfectly for +2 v spells as far as Will save
>spells is concerned. I can't think of any non spell Will saves.

Any supernatural mind-affecting effect. Harpy song, for example.

>But I would be interested in how you'd balance them. The only rule is that
>those combat feats have got to go. And, while not a rule, I really like the
>Will and Fort Save bennies better than poison and spell saves.

I'd probably give them proficiency in dwarven weapons (waraxe, urgosh)
for free.
--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn.DeleteThis@paradise.net.nz>
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Shawn Wilson

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Since: Nov 09, 2005
Posts: 72



(Msg. 7) Posted: Mon May 01, 2006 7:55 am
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"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn.RemoveThis@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:fhrb52pp76rcgvct9v743f7scsn2rtbd08@4ax.com...

>>+2 Will substitutes almost perfectly for +2 v spells as far as Will save
>>spells is concerned. I can't think of any non spell Will saves.
>
> Any supernatural mind-affecting effect. Harpy song, for example.
>
>>But I would be interested in how you'd balance them. The only rule is
>>that
>>those combat feats have got to go. And, while not a rule, I really like
>>the
>>Will and Fort Save bennies better than poison and spell saves.
>
> I'd probably give them proficiency in dwarven weapons (waraxe, urgosh)
> for free.


I don't know how to do that in NWN, and the Urgrosh doesn't exist anyway. I
could give Dwarves proficiency with all exotic weapons, but that's as close
as I can get. Part of the difficulty is that I am limited to the Feats
hardwired into the NWN game engine. There's stuff I'd like to do but can't,
like give Dwarven Defenders their proper AC bonuses. (although the Red
Dragon Disciple class has almost exactly the proper AC progression built
into it, (nailed to levels in the RDD class, so I can't extract it) and is
generally consider wildly overpowered and could be dumped in favor of
changing everything in it into a new DD class...)

Speaking of DDs, I want to adjust the DD class in NWN. I can't give tham
their proper AC bonuses, all I can do is give them a one time +2 to AC. I
can increase their DR bonus though.

In your opinion (and I mean everyone), what progression of Damage Resistance
(three points at a time) and possibly a 1 time +2 to AC would best balance
the normal +4 to AC and + 6 to DR progression?
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Shawn Wilson

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Since: Nov 09, 2005
Posts: 72



(Msg. 8) Posted: Mon May 01, 2006 8:12 am
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"Madkaugh" <madkaugh.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1146494518.142244.205260@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...

> <Dwarven Waraxe and Dwarven Urgrosh>
>
>> I don't know how to do that in NWN, and the Urgrosh doesn't exist anyway.
>
> You can stuff that's not in the base game. If you add stat and
> behavior scripting (bastard sword as a template) and backpack
> graphics, you'd have a functional item; use a stock set of axe
> animations.


Outside my skill set.





>> I could give Dwarves proficiency with all exotic weapons, but that's as
>> close
>> as I can get. Part of the difficulty is that I am limited to the Feats
>> hardwired into the NWN game engine.
>
> Giving Elves rapier, longsword, & longbow is probably
> scripted, not hardwired. I'd check for that for sample code.



There's an existing feat- WeapProfElf which elves get.

I don't know how to get into and edit feats.




>> In your opinion (and I mean everyone), what progression of Damage
>> Resistance
>> (three points at a time) and possibly a 1 time +2 to AC would best
>> balance
>> the normal +4 to AC and + 6 to DR progression?
>
> You should be able to script the progression.


Scripting is outside my skill set. I'm only at the learning to crawl stage.

Even skilled scripters can't do certain things. They can give effects but
can't make them show up in the character stats. I want stuff that does show
up. Knowing that it's 'really there' isn't enough for me.

I can access any feat in the feat.2da file, which includes all the normal
feats, race feats and class feats. Some I can't make work in an 'alien'
environment because they are pegged to levels in their class (eg the Dragon
Disciple armor feat doesn't work when translated to the Dwarven Defender
class, because it's effects are pegged to levels in Dragon Disciple). I can
change prerequisites of feats in that file (eg I can make Weapon Focus xxx a
prerequisite for Improved Critical xxx), but not how they work.

I can change which feats races get, and their attribute modifiers.

I can change the skills and feats the different classes get.

I can change skill points and hit points.

But that's about it.
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White Spirit

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Since: Apr 26, 2006
Posts: 5



(Msg. 9) Posted: Mon May 01, 2006 11:55 am
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Shawn Wilson wrote:

> First, I don't like the given DnD Dwarf. It's all over the place and
> doesn't feel 'real' or cohesive.

> So, my ideas for changes-

> Dwarves are not less well liked than other races, nor do they have weaker
> personalities. The -2 Cha adjustment is thus inappropriate.

This is due to institutionalised racism on the part of DnD developers.
Anti-dwarf discrimination is a pervasive cancer that undermines the
fabric of DnD society. This is why many games these days now have
weapons and armour with limited lifespans - a reflection of the
lessening of quality in these items since many disgruntled dwarves have
downed tools and refused to work the forges.

> Instead, since
> Dwarves are a lot of things but they aren't fast or agile, substitute a -2
> Dex adjustment. This also pushes them towards the heavier armors instead of
> lighter, which is the stereotype. This makes them slightly weaker since Dex
> is more important than Cha.

But the stereotypical view of the dwarf is what has led to this
situation in the first place. Now you want to make it worse by
portraying them as weak? Just wait until the NAADP (National
Association for the Advancement of Dwarven People) finds out about this.
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madkaugh

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Since: Aug 17, 2005
Posts: 16



(Msg. 10) Posted: Mon May 01, 2006 2:04 pm
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Shadow Wolf wrote:
> "Madkaugh" <madkaugh.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in
> news:1146494518.142244.205260@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com:
>
> >
> >> I could give Dwarves proficiency with all exotic weapons, but that's
> >> as close as I can get. Part of the difficulty is that I am limited
> >> to the Feats hardwired into the NWN game engine.
> >
> > Giving Elves rapier, longsword, & longbow is probably
> > scripted, not hardwired. I'd check for that for sample code.
>
> It's hardwired. Rapier is listed as "Martial, Rogue, or Elven" Proficiency
> needed, for instance.
>
> Proficiency types in NWN: Simple, Martial, Exotic, Rogue, Druid, Wizard,
> Elven.

I seem to remember something about an overide folder.
Would that let you change the proficiencies?

MadKaugh
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Shawn Wilson

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Since: Nov 09, 2005
Posts: 72



(Msg. 11) Posted: Mon May 01, 2006 2:25 pm
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<madkaugh DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1146517440.043097.57050@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>> Proficiency types in NWN: Simple, Martial, Exotic, Rogue, Druid, Wizard,
>> Elven.
>
> I seem to remember something about an overide folder.
> Would that let you change the proficiencies?


All the stuff I have mentioned I can change are via the override folder. In
fact nearly all changes are via the override folder. But I don't have the
skills to write new scripts. I can only use existing tools.

I was kind of hoping for some feedback on the classes I made up. Are they
reasonable? Overpowered? (I'll admit right now that Axe Murderer is too
much, maybe I'll jack up the prereqs so you can't take it until level 11 and
scale back some things). If the new Dwarf isn't enough what should be
added?
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Madkaugh

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Since: Jul 28, 2005
Posts: 561



(Msg. 12) Posted: Mon May 01, 2006 3:50 pm
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Shawn Wilson wrote:
> <madkaugh.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1146517440.043097.57050@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> Proficiency types in NWN: Simple, Martial, Exotic, Rogue, Druid, Wizard,
> >> Elven.
> >
> > I seem to remember something about an overide folder.
> > Would that let you change the proficiencies?
>
>
> All the stuff I have mentioned I can change are via the override folder. In
> fact nearly all changes are via the override folder. But I don't have the
> skills to write new scripts. I can only use existing tools.
>
> I was kind of hoping for some feedback on the classes I made up. Are they
> reasonable? Overpowered? (I'll admit right now that Axe Murderer is too
> much, maybe I'll jack up the prereqs so you can't take it until level 11 and
> scale back some things). If the new Dwarf isn't enough what should be
> added?

Your classes yield feats much more quickly than
P&P D&D and the stock NWN game. In that sense
they are overpowered. If it is for playing solo, who
cares? It's your game. If it is for a world you are
hosting, you're the DM, it's your house rules. Ask
your players if they're ok with it.

For me, I want NWN to be as much like D&D as
I can have it, so I would not want those classes.
That does not make you wrong.

I would like a Swashbuckler class from Complete
Adventurer, because it is a valuable class for dex
fighters. I would like to not have the three class
cap. If I didn't have the cap, I would be taking four
or five classes for some builds.


MadKaugh
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Shawn Wilson

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Since: Nov 09, 2005
Posts: 72



(Msg. 13) Posted: Mon May 01, 2006 4:09 pm
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"Madkaugh" <madkaugh.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1146523819.317542.199650@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...

>> I was kind of hoping for some feedback on the classes I made up. Are
>> they
>> reasonable? Overpowered? (I'll admit right now that Axe Murderer is too
>> much, maybe I'll jack up the prereqs so you can't take it until level 11
>> and
>> scale back some things). If the new Dwarf isn't enough what should be
>> added?
>
> Your classes yield feats much more quickly than
> P&P D&D and the stock NWN game.



I don't think they're that far off for prestige classes, Monks gets
something every level. Bladesinger gets 11 feats in 10 levels, counting
extra spellcasting as a feat. Cavalier, Darkhunter, Darkwood Stalker,
Dervish, Drunken Master... In fact nearly every single Prestige class in
Complete warrior gets at least one feat every single level. Sure many are
+1 use per day or 'Do X better', but many aren't, and many of the feats in
my classses are weak and rarely chosen.



> I would like a Swashbuckler class from Complete
> Adventurer, because it is a valuable class for dex
> fighters. I would like to not have the three class
> cap. If I didn't have the cap, I would be taking four
> or five classes for some builds.


NWN 2 will allow four classes. It won't have Swashbuckler, but it *will*
have Warlock. And it will be fully 3.5 rules.
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madkaugh

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Since: Aug 17, 2005
Posts: 16



(Msg. 14) Posted: Mon May 01, 2006 7:21 pm
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Shawn Wilson wrote:
>
> I don't think they're that far off for prestige classes,

Your game, your call.


> NWN 2 will allow four classes.

D&D has no cap. Too many won't work, but cherrypicking
classes off your prefered class works well, as does adding
prestige classes that don't count against your XP.


> It won't have Swashbuckler, but it *will* have Warlock.

It should have classes scripted, not hard coded, for
flexibility.


> And it will be fully 3.5 rules.

NWN is not 'fully' 3.0; NWN 2 may be closer to 3.5 but
I expect gaps, even WRT the core rules.

MadKaugh
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Alex Mars

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Since: Sep 11, 2005
Posts: 330



(Msg. 15) Posted: Mon May 01, 2006 8:44 pm
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This thread demonstrates why I don't use any prestige class that isn't
in the official game, it takes too much time to weed out the
overpowered and unbalanced ones. It is just like in the old days of
PnP D&D where people would publish totally overpowered character
classes in fanzines.

>D&D has no cap.

Doesn't 3.0 have an exp penalty for the third+ classes unless it is a
favoured class?
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