Christmas Update Predictions

On Dec 26 2007, 1:22 pm, Krice <pau....RemoveThis@mbnet.fi> wrote:
> On 26 joulu, 12:26, sandra <sandra.ivce....RemoveThis@zg.t-com.hr> wrote:
>
> > Angband is hardly an example of a game turned into a
> > munchkin-fest.
>
> Yeah. It's hard to turn something into munchkin-fest
> if it already is that:)

But I don't see it as bad. In fact, I've often been frustrated
by the lack of release of the ADOM source code, as I really
wanted to learn how some important parts of the game
worked. Really, above all else I wanted the source code
for educational/academic purposes.

Also, with Angband, even if there's this giant "munchkin-fest"
pile of variants out there, that does not in any way, at least
in my opinion, detract from the game. The original game still
exists and one can still play it. Although I never really liked
it that much, but that had nothing to do with there being a
lot of variants.
 >> Stay informed about: Christmas Update Predictions 

On Jan 8, 5:18 am, Tlis <tli....TakeThisOut@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On 24 Dec 2007, 08:17, mike3 <mike4....TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:> ""? You think he *hated* working on ADOM? Then why be so protective
> > of the source code, not wanting it to turn into a "munchkin-fest" and
> > all?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I remember a long time ago TB complained about the ADOM code being not
> as neatly written as he would like it to be. Modifying such a code
> must be a nightmare Probably TB does not want to release the code,
> as this would reveal the not-so-high quality of his coding. I bet,
> that JADE is exactly an attempt to start from scratch, doing it better
> than in ADOM, with possibly better tools than several years ago. As
> long, as the Creator has the control over the source code, he can
> produce executables, that just work ... even though the source code is
> probably very difficult to maintain. This would also explain the long
> delays between the releases ...

Hmm. TB not wanting to have his ego hurt by such a release and
the resulting criticism it might draw?
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On 10 tammi, 07:36, mike3 <mike4....RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
> as I really wanted to learn how some important parts of the
> game worked.

For any part of roguelike there are probably just couple
of ways to do that, nothing exciting really..

> Really, above all else I wanted the source code
> for educational/academic purposes.

Academic? It's a game.
 >> Stay informed about: Christmas Update Predictions 

On 10 tammi, 07:37, mike3 <mike4... DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hmm. TB not wanting to have his ego hurt by such a release and
> the resulting criticism it might draw?

There is one explanation that isn't considered, because
it may be somewhat insulting.. what if TB constructed
ADOM on top of some other roguelike's source code? I can't
imagine what RL that would have been, but it's one possible
reason he can't release the source code. It would also
explain how he was able to do ADOM in such short time and
also explains the vast number of bugs ADOM has, because it's
harder to detect bugs from a project that wasn't written by
the author from the beginning.
 >> Stay informed about: Christmas Update Predictions 

"Krice" <paulkp.DeleteThis@mbnet.fi> wrote in message
news:84649c85-2e2b-49d7-b81b-affed244fbc8@t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...

> On 10 tammi, 07:37, mike3 <mike4....DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Hmm. TB not wanting to have his ego hurt by such a release and
>> the resulting criticism it might draw?
>
> There is one explanation that isn't considered, because
> it may be somewhat insulting.. what if TB constructed
> ADOM on top of some other roguelike's source code? I can't
> imagine what RL that would have been, but it's one possible
> reason he can't release the source code. It would also
> explain how he was able to do ADOM in such short time and
> also explains the vast number of bugs ADOM has, because it's
> harder to detect bugs from a project that wasn't written by
> the author from the beginning.

Haha, now that's just insane. ADOM did not have an unusually quick
development time for a start. Any such plagiarism would be quite easily
recognisable, especially since ADOM is one of the biggest roguelikes around.
The reason for the bugs is extremely obvious - one guy coding it all, and
often not playtesting it properly. ADOM has a lot of fairly individual
features and complex coding, including one of the best level creation
algorithms of any roguelike. It's quite obvious that TB is very capable of
making a roguelike himself from scratch (he even produced QHack to help
others do the same).

There are far far more believable explanations out there for why TB wants to
keep the game to himself, all of which have been discussed here time and
time again.

--
Darren Grey
 >> Stay informed about: Christmas Update Predictions 

On Jan 10, 9:23 am, "Darren Grey" <darreng....DeleteThis@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> "Krice" <pau....DeleteThis@mbnet.fi> wrote in message
>
> news:84649c85-2e2b-49d7-b81b-affed244fbc8@t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On 10 tammi, 07:37, mike3 <mike4....DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> Hmm. TB not wanting to have his ego hurt by such a release and
> >> the resulting criticism it might draw?
>
> > There is one explanation that isn't considered, because
> > it may be somewhat insulting.. what if TB constructed
> > ADOM on top of some other roguelike's source code? I can't
> > imagine what RL that would have been, but it's one possible
> > reason he can't release the source code. It would also
> > explain how he was able to do ADOM in such short time and
> > also explains the vast number of bugs ADOM has, because it's
> > harder to detect bugs from a project that wasn't written by
> > the author from the beginning.
>
> Haha, now that's just insane.  ADOM did not have an unusually quick
> development time for a start.  Any such plagiarism would be quite easily
> recognisable, especially since ADOM is one of the biggest roguelikes around.
> The reason for the bugs is extremely obvious - one guy coding it all, and
> often not playtesting it properly.  ADOM has a lot of fairly individual
> features and complex coding, including one of the best level creation
> algorithms of any roguelike.  It's quite obvious that TB is very capable of
> making a roguelike himself from scratch (he even produced QHack to help
> others do the same).
>
> There are far far more believable explanations out there for why TB wants to
> keep the game to himself, all of which have been discussed here time and
> time again.
>

Of course this comes up with the question of why not to
release descriptions for the basic algorithms even if
not the game code? That's what I wanted the most, out
of everything there.

Like, for example, I'd want to know how the
level generator works. A simple description of the algorithm,
abstracted from code, would be good. Or the monster AI, or the
inventory handler, or... (although without the specific data items,
parameters, and quirks that make it _ADOM_.)

None of these things would make it real easy to create a
variant of ADOM, and one could at most end up with an imperfect
clone of the game that would then be made into the variant.
And it would still be a non-trivial project. This stuff would,
however,
be educational for people who want to write their own game, and
that's what I want. I do not actually need to see the source code
of ADOM. Although it would be nice... but then again maybe I've
swallowed too much RMS / FSF / GNU stuff But I do not demand
it. I'd be equally satisfied getting algorithm specifications for
those
basic areas.
 >> Stay informed about: Christmas Update Predictions 

On 11 tammi, 04:23, mike3 <mike4... DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote:
> Like, for example, I'd want to know how the
> level generator works.

Why? Level generators are pretty easy to do once you
understand some basic concepts.. In my opinion they are
one of the easiest things in roguelike development, well
depending somewhat on how complex generator you want to do.

> None of these things would make it real easy to create a
> variant of ADOM, and one could at most end up with an imperfect
> clone of the game that would then be made into the variant.

Sounds like you want to create a variant or even a clone
of ADOM. And that doesn't sound good at all:)
 >> Stay informed about: Christmas Update Predictions 

On Jan 10, 9:40 pm, "Darren Grey" <darreng... DeleteThis @ntlworld.com> wrote:
> "mike3" <mike4... DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote...
> >None of these things would make it real easy to create a
> >variant of ADOM, and one could at most end up with an imperfect
> >clone of the game that would then be made into the variant.
> >And it would still be a non-trivial project. This stuff would,
> >however,
> >be educational for people who want to write their own game, and
> >that's what I want. I do not actually need to see the source code
> >of ADOM. Although it would be nice... but then again maybe I've
> >swallowed too much RMS / FSF / GNU stuff But I do not demand
> >it. I'd be equally satisfied getting algorithm specifications for
> >those basic areas.
>
> Maybe he's just a big meanie poo?  



> Anyway, there's plenty of other sources
> out there you can have a gander at if you want to learn about making
> roguelikes.  I doubt ADOM would give that much extra enlightenment
> (especially if the source is a mess).  

Like I said, it was algorithms I was after, more than sources.

> The Nethack source, being maintained
> and polished by lots of people, would give a far better lesson in ways to
> code these things.  I'm quite happy with this free game thats given me years
> of entertainment - expecting to get parts of the source too seems a little
> greedy to me.
>

I've looked at it some, by the way, but don't really like the
results of it's level generator. It might help with the other
items I mentioned though.
 >> Stay informed about: Christmas Update Predictions 

On Jan 10, 11:59 pm, Krice <pau....TakeThisOut@mbnet.fi> wrote:
> On 11 tammi, 04:23, mike3 <mike4....TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Like, for example, I'd want to know how the
> > level generator works.
>
> Why? Level generators are pretty easy to do once you
> understand some basic concepts.. In my opinion they are
> one of the easiest things in roguelike development, well
> depending somewhat on how complex generator you want to do.
>

But the rub is getting levels that have nicely-formed tunnels
like in ADOM. That's what I'm after.

> > None of these things would make it real easy to create a
> > variant of ADOM, and one could at most end up with an imperfect
> > clone of the game that would then be made into the variant.
>
> Sounds like you want to create a variant or even a clone
> of ADOM. And that doesn't sound good at all:)

?

No, it would be quite a bit different from ADOM. Different
world, different monsters, different (mostly) storyline, etc.
 >> Stay informed about: Christmas Update Predictions 

"mike3" <mike4ty4 DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote...

>None of these things would make it real easy to create a
>variant of ADOM, and one could at most end up with an imperfect
>clone of the game that would then be made into the variant.
>And it would still be a non-trivial project. This stuff would,
>however,
>be educational for people who want to write their own game, and
>that's what I want. I do not actually need to see the source code
>of ADOM. Although it would be nice... but then again maybe I've
>swallowed too much RMS / FSF / GNU stuff But I do not demand
>it. I'd be equally satisfied getting algorithm specifications for
>those basic areas.

Maybe he's just a big meanie poo? Anyway, there's plenty of other sources
out there you can have a gander at if you want to learn about making
roguelikes. I doubt ADOM would give that much extra enlightenment
(especially if the source is a mess). The Nethack source, being maintained
and polished by lots of people, would give a far better lesson in ways to
code these things. I'm quite happy with this free game thats given me years
of entertainment - expecting to get parts of the source too seems a little
greedy to me.

--
Darren Grey
 >> Stay informed about: Christmas Update Predictions 

On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 23:32:46 -0800, mike3 wrote:

> On Jan 10, 9:40 pm, "Darren Grey" <darreng....TakeThisOut@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> "mike3" <mike4....TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote...
>> >None of these things would make it real easy to create a
>> >variant of ADOM, and one could at most end up with an imperfect
>> >clone of the game that would then be made into the variant.
>> >And it would still be a non-trivial project. This stuff would,
>> >however,
>> >be educational for people who want to write their own game, and
>> >that's what I want. I do not actually need to see the source code
>> >of ADOM. Although it would be nice... but then again maybe I've
>> >swallowed too much RMS / FSF / GNU stuff But I do not demand
>> >it. I'd be equally satisfied getting algorithm specifications for
>> >those basic areas.
>>
>> Maybe he's just a big meanie poo?  
>
>
>
>> Anyway, there's plenty of other sources
>> out there you can have a gander at if you want to learn about making
>> roguelikes.  I doubt ADOM would give that much extra enlightenment
>> (especially if the source is a mess).  
>
> Like I said, it was algorithms I was after, more than sources.
>
>> The Nethack source, being maintained
>> and polished by lots of people, would give a far better lesson in ways to
>> code these things.  I'm quite happy with this free game thats given me years
>> of entertainment - expecting to get parts of the source too seems a little
>> greedy to me.
>>
>
> I've looked at it some, by the way, but don't really like the
> results of it's level generator. It might help with the other
> items I mentioned though.

I havn't really tried it but perhaps the QHack sources for level
generation? It would make sense to me that he would write them fairly
similarly to the ones from ADOM...


Lochok
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"mike3" <mike4ty4.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote...

>I've looked at it some, by the way, but don't really like the
>results of it's level generator. It might help with the other
>items I mentioned though.

Have you checked out Omega? Even the original Hack had nice level
generation actually. ADOM is the best, of course, and has a lot of
complexities, but you can understand quite a few things just by looking at
the game. For instance the cavern levels can be seen to be normal levels
with large balls of space added wherever there should be doors (thus
retaining some original features like corridors and some square walls, but
making a much more open level). River generation is... well, quite flawed
actually. They're just thrown in the middle of the level, meaning that you
can end up with dungeon features like altars or the stairs smack in the
middle of a wide river. The maze levels are much more interesting - I don't
know how he does those, but I imagine it's a simple algorithm that can
produce conplex looking results.

--
Darren Grey
 >> Stay informed about: Christmas Update Predictions 

On Jan 12, 1:34 am, "Darren Grey" <darreng....RemoveThis@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> "mike3" <mike4....RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote...
> >I've looked at it some, by the way, but don't really like the
> >results of it's level generator. It might help with the other
> >items I mentioned though.
>
> Have you checked out Omega?  

Yes, actually. I was not impressed w/ the dungeon generator.
It was fairly poor.

> Even the original Hack had nice level
> generation actually.  

Hmm.

> ADOM is the best, of course, and has a lot of
> complexities, but you can understand quite a few things just by looking at
> the game.  For instance the cavern levels can be seen to be normal levels
> with large balls of space added wherever there should be doors (thus
> retaining some original features like corridors and some square walls, but
> making a much more open level).  River generation is... well, quite flawed
> actually.  They're just thrown in the middle of the level, meaning that you
> can end up with dungeon features like altars or the stairs smack in the
> middle of a wide river.  The maze levels are much more interesting - I don't
> know how he does those, but I imagine it's a simple algorithm that can
> produce conplex looking results.
>

There are several well-known maze generation algorithms out there,
ex. Prim's algorithm, Kruskal's algorithm, depth-first search, etc.

What I'm most interested in is the ordinary dungeon levels and how he
does the corridors as to avoid all sorts of oddities like "wide"
corridors/
"pseudo rooms" (a squarish block of "wide" corridor), corridors that
take
off part of a room's walls, etc.
 >> Stay informed about: Christmas Update Predictions