Bug: Prison Camps

On Dec 4, 4:55 am, Phaidros <tiab....TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 4 Dez., 08:41, Fabian <fab....TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Playing as Solorian or EE my camps produce income at a 100% efficiency
> > nevertheless how many prisoners are in the camp. E.g. a 1000-camps-
> > base with only 40k pris produces just like a 100k-pris-base.
>
> > Can anyone confirm this? Is it a known problem? Havn't read anything
> > likt it on the newsgroup recently.
>
> > Cheers,
>
> > Fabian
>
> I have experienced similar things in the past with the Draconians.
>
> Phaidros

EE has been reported to work with 25% 100 camp with only 25K
prisoners.
I have seen report for other labor camp race prior to this thread.

Bug report sent ?

Lord Lancelot
 >> Stay informed about: Bug: Prison Camps 

On Dec 4, 5:52 am, Lord Lancelot <polan....RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> EE has been reported to work with 25% 100 camp with only 25K
> prisoners.
> I have seen report for other labor camp race prior to this thread.
>
> Bug report sent ?

It's not a bug. It's an EE bonus feature. Other races don't get that
bonus.

Magik
 >> Stay informed about: Bug: Prison Camps 

Ok... so EE can run camps with only 25% of the needed prisoners
present, right?

In this case I'll check my Solorians again. Maybe I just found some
weird numbers and thought "this must be the same as with the empire".

Cheers,

Fabian
 >> Stay informed about: Bug: Prison Camps 

On Dec 4, 1:32 pm, "Black No.1" <keineahnung... DeleteThis @gmx.de> wrote:
> "Magik" <rickglo... DeleteThis @paulhastings.com> schrieb im Newsbeitragnews:f0856f70-3c89-47e6-8c74-48d3d6b1a71f@b40g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Dec 4, 5:52 am, Lord Lancelot <polan... DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> EE has been reported to work with 25% 100 camp with only 25K
> >> prisoners.
> >> I have seen report for other labor camp race prior to this thread.
>
> >> Bug report sent ?
>
> > It's not a bug. It's an EE bonus feature. Other races don't get that
> > bonus.
>
> > Magik
>
> Any chance that this gets changed?
>
> Right now EE get double bonus:
>
> They need only 1/4 of the prisoners and get 4x the income, so they effectively
> get 16x the normal money...
>
> Cheers,
> Jochen

I think it is ok, the labor mine also got a huge boost lately, and
with the 1/4 prisoners needed EE could do ok with just a farm world or
two instead of the need of a HW.
In a game with high player skill a EE player can only hope for a fam
world.

Lord Lancelot
 >> Stay informed about: Bug: Prison Camps 

"Magik" <rickglover DeleteThis @paulhastings.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:f0856f70-3c89-47e6-8c74-48d3d6b1a71f@b40g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 4, 5:52 am, Lord Lancelot <polan... DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> EE has been reported to work with 25% 100 camp with only 25K
>> prisoners.
>> I have seen report for other labor camp race prior to this thread.
>>
>> Bug report sent ?
>
> It's not a bug. It's an EE bonus feature. Other races don't get that
> bonus.
>
> Magik

Any chance that this gets changed?

Right now EE get double bonus:

They need only 1/4 of the prisoners and get 4x the income, so they effectively
get 16x the normal money...

Cheers,
Jochen
 >> Stay informed about: Bug: Prison Camps 

>
> Lets take a farm world with 100.000 colonists and have a look at the initial
> gain (this will drop as prisoners are dying):
>
> 1.000 normal labor camps: 3.000 MC
> 1.000 labor mines: 12.000 MC (if there are enough metals to mine)
> Lizard selling prisoners: 6,600 MC
>
> 4.000 EE labor camps: 48.000 MC
>
> If that happens at the start of the game, this is likely to break the game.
>
> Cheers,
> Jochen

Most slaver have both camp so 15 000 MC per turn.

IMO The EE is the master slaver race and should do the most.
The math 48 000 MC make me realize that is it too much.
That could be reduced to 16 000- 20 000 MC instead.

Make the EE LC do 16 MC (or even 20 MC) per camp instead of their 12
MC now and remove the 25% special.
They would still be the best and be less game breaking.

Also note that EE hull cost a lot and they make little money outside
the prisoner economy, while let say the Stormer make a ok economy
without the prisoners and get 15 000 for the prisoners and their hull
are cheap. On top of that Stormer could make extra money popping
amorphous.

Lord Lancelot
 >> Stay informed about: Bug: Prison Camps 

I am considering putting some code in place that will limit the income
generated from any single source to 10k mc per turn. That would
affect Centaur Marketplace, Labor Camps/Mines, Gambling Deck, Pyramid
Lounge, etc. Do you think a blanket change like this would make
sense?

Magik
 >> Stay informed about: Bug: Prison Camps 

On Dec 5, 7:31 am, Magik <rickglo....TakeThisOut@paulhastings.com> wrote:
> I am considering putting some code in place that will limit the income
> generated from any single source to 10k mc per turn. That would
> affect Centaur Marketplace, Labor Camps/Mines, Gambling Deck, Pyramid
> Lounge, etc. Do you think a blanket change like this would make
> sense?
>
> Magik

It would help limit "windfall" income.

It is already more efficient to spread your prisoners out, since fewer
prisoners die for the same money.

If the Mine/Camps are limited like this, be sure and limit the death
rate as well.
 >> Stay informed about: Bug: Prison Camps 

I am opposed to such a blanket cap. I'd rather see the special Evil
Empire income bonus toned somewhat down.

Phaidros
 >> Stay informed about: Bug: Prison Camps 

On Dec 5, 9:31 am, Magik <rickglo....DeleteThis@paulhastings.com> wrote:
> I am considering putting some code in place that will limit the income
> generated from any single source to 10k mc per turn. That would
> affect Centaur Marketplace, Labor Camps/Mines, Gambling Deck, Pyramid
> Lounge, etc. Do you think a blanket change like this would make
> sense?
>
> Magik

"will limit the income generated from any single source to 10k mc per
turn."

I see many trouble with that, is that per base ? or per player (all
base & ships) ?

I do not think the Centaur Market place need a limit, it like if you
put a max income on a Borg HW (with king present & tot A active) it
make no sense, leave the market place without cap.

But for the other device it could be a good idea, but it need a
multiply by turn # factor. Yes +10 K is good at turn 10, but at turn
20 ,30, 50, 100 ?
Perhaps a max of 1k per turn, turn 10 = 10k, turn 50 = 50k.

Having a max income per base for those device could be an extra
incitative to spread out, and be more open to attack (a good thing).

New H config switch
Limit income = Y/N (default Y)
Limit income per base per turn = 1000 Mc Default (500-5000)

P.S.
In any case a town down of the EE income from LC is needed 16 or 20 mc
per LC would be a good change Dropping the 25%.
I think this is more needed than an overall max, witch can be good but
will need a lot of rules to be fair for all races.
 >> Stay informed about: Bug: Prison Camps 

"Lord Lancelot" <polandor.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:5ffca9df-2902-4ea2-9428-1ee848cd84f8@b40g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 4, 1:32 pm, "Black No.1" <keineahnung....RemoveThis@gmx.de> wrote:
>> "Magik" <rickglo....RemoveThis@paulhastings.com> schrieb im
>> Newsbeitragnews:f0856f70-3c89-47e6-8c74-48d3d6b1a71f@b40g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > On Dec 4, 5:52 am, Lord Lancelot <polan....RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> EE has been reported to work with 25% 100 camp with only 25K
>> >> prisoners.
>> >> I have seen report for other labor camp race prior to this thread.
>>
>> >> Bug report sent ?
>>
>> > It's not a bug. It's an EE bonus feature. Other races don't get that
>> > bonus.
>>
>> > Magik
>>
>> Any chance that this gets changed?
>>
>> Right now EE get double bonus:
>>
>> They need only 1/4 of the prisoners and get 4x the income, so they
>> effectively
>> get 16x the normal money...
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Jochen
>
> I think it is ok, the labor mine also got a huge boost lately, and
> with the 1/4 prisoners needed EE could do ok with just a farm world or
> two instead of the need of a HW.
> In a game with high player skill a EE player can only hope for a fam
> world.
>
> Lord Lancelot

Lets take a farm world with 100.000 colonists and have a look at the initial
gain (this will drop as prisoners are dying):

1.000 normal labor camps: 3.000 MC
1.000 labor mines: 12.000 MC (if there are enough metals to mine)
Lizard selling prisoners: 6,600 MC

4.000 EE labor camps: 48.000 MC

If that happens at the start of the game, this is likely to break the game.

Cheers,
Jochen
 >> Stay informed about: Bug: Prison Camps 

On Dec 6, 1:31 am, Magik <rickglo... DeleteThis @paulhastings.com> wrote:
> I am considering putting some code in place that will limit the income
> generated from any single source to 10k mc per turn.

I am opposed to any sort of hardcoded limits and stepfunctions. It
makes it advantageous to operate close to that limit and hence
increases micromanagement.


> That would
> affect Centaur Marketplace, Labor Camps/Mines, Gambling Deck, Pyramid
> Lounge, etc. Do you think a blanket change like this would make
> sense?

Limiting any income that is based on one's own population one way or
another strikes me as counterproductive. Economy is (and should) be an
important part in this game. A sliding limit as Lord Lancelot
suggested is also problematic, because it would be difficult to make
it match all possible starting conditions and host-settings.

Limiting "windfalls" _may_ be needed, then again, I wouldn't call it a
windfall if e.g. an EE manages to take over a HW by turn 7. Possibly
the gains from that need to be toned down, but not to the level other
races would get, since the EE _do_ have _real_ disadvantages (growth-
rate being the big one).
In general, I think most people playing this game concentrate far too
much on what the other races could possibly do to them, instead of
using their own race's strengths to inflict maximum pain to others

Cheers,
Michael
 >> Stay informed about: Bug: Prison Camps 

On Dec 6, 11:04 am, "Black No.1" <keineahnung....TakeThisOut@gmx.de> wrote:
> "rumata" <mmoser....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitragnews:a2f41e89-76f3-4a55-adff-0ca951fe7b50@d27g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> > Limiting "windfalls" _may_ be needed, then again, I wouldn't call it a
> > windfall if e.g. an EE manages to take over a HW by turn 7. Possibly
> > the gains from that need to be toned down, but not to the level other
> > races would get, since the EE _do_ have _real_ disadvantages (growth-
> > rate being the big one).
> > In general, I think most people playing this game concentrate far too
> > much on what the other races could possibly do to them, instead of
> > using their own race's strengths to inflict maximum pain to others
>
> > Cheers,
> > Michael
>
> Sure I think we all agree that EE needs money and should get it - but with
> the current rules they don't even need to capture a hw to break the game.
> So that's surely over the top.

Does it happen often?

All these "what if scenarios" mostly concentrate on one factor, in
this case (using your numbers from above): The EE makes 4times (labor
mines) or 8 times (lizard slaves) more money from prisoners than other
races. That ignores that the EE also has to invest 4 times what the
labor mine race has to invest (and the Lizards invest 0). For an EE
who tries to pour everything into Star destroyers and bots or
training, the needed 8000mc and 4000 supplies are a _big_ chunk of
resources.

And once he's pulled it off and is earning big bucks, he needs to
build ships and bring them to the next target (with short range
hypedrives).
This is going to take time.
Imho enough time to allow a few people to have grav defences. And no
matter how much money an EE has, fighting e.g. the Borg is going to be
a painful (and probably futile ) exercise for him.

Which brings me back to my first question, does it happen often? Is
the Empire winning games left right and center? With no early drops
and evenly matched players?

Cheers,
Michael
 >> Stay informed about: Bug: Prison Camps