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Beginner tips for human reaver?

 
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Gerry Quinn

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Since: Nov 27, 2004
Posts: 799



(Msg. 1) Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:55 pm
Post subject: Beginner tips for human reaver?
Archived from groups: rec>games>roguelike>misc (more info?)

Hi, I just started playing Crawl (tiled version, if that matters - I
don't do ASCII). As with most games I start with a character type and
get used to it. In this case I chose a human reaver for some reason,
and he seems a decent enough monster-basher.

My Lvl 6 character just died on dungeon level 4 (almost cleared) after
my best game so far. I thought I was safe fighting an ogre who was
nearly dead, but then he hit me with his club for 19. Sigh. Maybe
that +2 animal skin wasn't the best choice of armour, I had +0 orcish
splint mail which would have given me much armour but poor evasion.

I had an amulet of gourmand and a ring of poison resistance, nothing
else special. I found the book of cantrips and learned summon small
mammals - unfortunately it mostly summons stupid bats that fly away and
get lost. My workhouse spell was throw frost, which did useful damage
at this level. Next time I'll learn it without delay - I dithered
until I had about 5 spell levels to use.

I assume a lot of the game is making the best of whatever random stuff
you find. But assuming I progress a bit further at some stage:

What should I plan to learn out of the book of conjurations?
What god should I worship?
What spell-schools should I go for, if I can (I figured summoning
couldn't be bad).

- Gerry Quinn

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thiskidrob

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Since: Dec 17, 2005
Posts: 55



(Msg. 2) Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Beginner tips for human reaver? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Gerry Quinn wrote:
> Hi, I just started playing Crawl (tiled version, if that matters - I
> don't do ASCII). As with most games I start with a character type and
> get used to it. In this case I chose a human reaver for some reason,
> and he seems a decent enough monster-basher.

This char is also going to be a powerful magic user if you care to
develop him that way. I would do whatever it takes to survive early
on, and then focus on a powerful long range spell magic to compliment
your early melee skills. Keep raising fighting to toughen your char
and raise HP. There are no huge amounts of experience to be gained in
the early game - only midgame. So, there is nothing wrong with waiting
for midgame when you catch a break (ring of wiz, good spellbooks, staff
of conjurations) to begin training your magic for real.

IMO, if you can survive up to the lair, if you can cast at that point,
you will be in good shape to live and be a good magic user. Train
conjurations first.


>
> My Lvl 6 character just died on dungeon level 4 (almost cleared) after
> my best game so far. I thought I was safe fighting an ogre who was
> nearly dead, but then he hit me with his club for 19. Sigh. Maybe
> that +2 animal skin wasn't the best choice of armour, I had +0 orcish
> splint mail which would have given me much armour but poor evasion.

The splint mail would hurt your ability to cast, so I dont blame you
for what you were wearing. I would have made the same choice. Did you
have any poisoned needles? If so, ogres are very large, with a very
low evasion, so it is surprisingly easy to hit them with 2 poisoned
needles, run away (in circles if necessary), and maybe throw one more.
He will surely die. And if you begin throwing as soon as the ogre
enters your line of site, you will likely be able to get in 2 to 3 hits
in before he ever gets close enough to touch you. Very effective.
Wand of disintegration is a great way to take one out in the early
game, if you can find one. Its always better to use your resources
(wand of fire, cold, etc) than die. Often times, zapping and killing
an early game ogre will give you level up, because they give high exp
for the early game. Better to level up than die Smile

>
> I had an amulet of gourmand and a ring of poison resistance, nothing
> else special. I found the book of cantrips and learned summon small
> mammals - unfortunately it mostly summons stupid bats that fly away and
> get lost. My workhouse spell was throw frost, which did useful damage
> at this level. Next time I'll learn it without delay - I dithered
> until I had about 5 spell levels to use.
>

Gourmand is an awesome item for a spellcaster. Def one of the top 5
most important. Summon small mammals isnt bad, especially if you have
a ring of wiz. You should program this macro

!a+.

This is the 'attack nearest monster' macro to be used when you have
command of monsters.
> I assume a lot of the game is making the best of whatever random stuff
> you find.

This is very true

But assuming I progress a bit further at some stage:
>
> What should I plan to learn out of the book of conjurations?

Most elemental magic spells use a combo of schools.

Stone arrow is Conj/Earth
Many fire spells are Conj/Fire
Throw Frost is Conj/Ice

So, I think it would be wise to bring conjurations up to at least 10,
by killing everything you could with magic dart. You would have been
able to cast that much because you had the gourmand. Without it, you
cant cast as much as you like generally because of food issues.

Then you need to start thinking about your endgame strategy, believe it
or not. You need a way to deal with the fire and cold resistant
monsters quickly, etc. Earth is good for that, and also Iskendrums
Mystic blast (which is basically magic dart on steroids. Very
effective, and never misses. Especially effective when you have
trained Conjurations high, and maybe even wield staff of conj and ring
of wiz.

> What god should I worship?

Prob Vehumet. He is pleased when you kill stuff. So, if you get it
set up right, you go through the entire midgame killing stuff with a
magic school you want to train for endgame, thus training that magic
skill up to the low to mid twenties, or even up to 27, and having an
effective means to win the game. Yet all the while, you need to
remember to pray before 95% of your kills, to make Vehumet happy. The
rewards are huge. So pray and kill stuff with your magic of choice.

Or, if you find a good enough combo that you dont need Vehumets aide,
you could worship Okawaru, and get his benefits, including what could
be a great set of armor and jewellery. Or any god you want. Or none.

> What spell-schools should I go for, if I can (I figured summoning
> couldn't be bad).
>

Summoning is advanced, yet doable. It is an indirect form of attack
magic. It is very useful for creating a few monsters to distract and
ogre for a minute while you run away. It will buy you a few turns,
almost like an indirect way of paralyzing an opponent.

Good luck...

Oh yes, and for any reaver, a ring of magical power is probably the
best early game find you could get, so when it happens, dont die. With
that ring, you can cast 10x as much magic dart that you could without,
if you find it while exp level 1. Use that to your advantage. If you
get a scroll of acquirement, go for the staff; the payoffs are
immediate, and that will assist you in the elemental schools as well as
other stuff. Conjurations touch many schools, so always a good idea...

- thiskid

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sterjs

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Since: Mar 03, 2006
Posts: 118



(Msg. 3) Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 1:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Beginner tips for human reaver? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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My advice would be to pick something easier to start out with. Human
Reaver is a very advanced combo. To use one effectively you need to
juggle your skills well and survive the early-mid game when your
fighting and spellcasting are both weaker than a pure character.

I recommend a Hill Dwarf Berserker or Minotaur Monk. These are both
pure fighter types with little spellcasting potential(aside from
Evocations, but that's another story). They are tough enough to survive
for a long time and see more of the dungeon. Troll Berserkers are a
good choice for beginners too, but they are very limited and don't
teach you fundamental skills like food management etc. If you'd like to
play a spellcaster, I recommend trying a Deep Elf Conjurer or Fire/Ice
Elementalist.

Of course, if HuRe's float your boat, have at it.
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nyra

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Since: Apr 24, 2005
Posts: 98



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 1:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Beginner tips for human reaver? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Gerry Quinn schrieb:
>
> Hi, I just started playing Crawl (tiled version, if that matters - I
> don't do ASCII). As with most games I start with a character type and
> get used to it. In this case I chose a human reaver for some reason,
> and he seems a decent enough monster-basher.
>
> My Lvl 6 character just died on dungeon level 4 (almost cleared) after
> my best game so far. I thought I was safe fighting an ogre who was
> nearly dead, but then he hit me with his club for 19. Sigh.

Ow. Well, ogres are heavy hitters and should be taken on from a
distance if at all possible.

> Maybe
> that +2 animal skin wasn't the best choice of armour, I had +0 orcish
> splint mail which would have given me much armour but poor evasion.

It would also have completely blown apart your spellcasting success.
And the ogre would have still had a chance to do the full 19 points of
damage with advantageous die rolls.

> I had an amulet of gourmand and a ring of poison resistance, nothing
> else special. I found the book of cantrips and learned summon small
> mammals - unfortunately it mostly summons stupid bats that fly away and
> get lost.

It's pretty damn pointless if you don't train it up quite a bit (at
level 8+ in Summoning skill it starts to become interesting, below
that it's mostly good for victory-dancing).

> My workhouse spell was throw frost, which did useful damage
> at this level. Next time I'll learn it without delay - I dithered
> until I had about 5 spell levels to use.
>
> I assume a lot of the game is making the best of whatever random stuff
> you find.

A good weapon or a nice armour item (not body armour, which has
repercussions for your future path) can make quite a difference early
on. Some of the weapon enchantment spells can help a lot with melee.
Spellcasters have the advantage of being not quite so item-dependent,
which is one of the good bits about reavers.

> But assuming I progress a bit further at some stage:
>
> What should I plan to learn out of the book of conjurations?

The second-level spell, as soon as you can. Can't remember off the
cuff what the choices in third-level spells are, but i think they're
either conjure flame or stone arrow (there are different versions of
the conjuration book, i think), neither of which is particularly
impressive. Most conjurations of level 4+ are worth learning.

You'll have to decide whether to be a fighter with magic backup or a
spellcaster with melee capacity. Don't neglect your backup but
remember to pump your main weapon. Specialisation is rewarded in
Crawl.

> What god should I worship?

For spellcasting, Vehumet or Sif Muna. For fighters, Okawaru's always
quite nice if you can abstain from summoning. Makhleb and Trog are
somewhat to seriously (in the case of Trog) counterproductive. The
remaining deities look so-so to me. It's nice to have what they can
offer, but there's no special benefit for your profession.

> What spell-schools should I go for, if I can (I figured summoning
> couldn't be bad).

I think summoning requires a fair bit of investment in experience and
spell levels to make it useful; i find conjurations more
straightforward, and they also don't collide with your combat
abilities.

--
Se on Jumalan sana, sanoi mies,
kun akkansa raamatulla löi.
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Gerry Quinn

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Since: Nov 27, 2004
Posts: 799



(Msg. 5) Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Beginner tips for human reaver? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In article <1152376385.461042.265710.RemoveThis@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
thiskidrob.RemoveThis@yahoo.com says...
> Gerry Quinn wrote:

> > Hi, I just started playing Crawl (tiled version, if that matters - I
> > don't do ASCII). As with most games I start with a character type and
> > get used to it. In this case I chose a human reaver for some reason,
> > and he seems a decent enough monster-basher.

Thanks to Nyra also. You have both made similar points.

> This char is also going to be a powerful magic user if you care to
> develop him that way. I would do whatever it takes to survive early
> on, and then focus on a powerful long range spell magic to compliment
> your early melee skills. Keep raising fighting to toughen your char
> and raise HP.

That was my idea.

> > My Lvl 6 character just died on dungeon level 4 (almost cleared) after
> > my best game so far. I thought I was safe fighting an ogre who was
> > nearly dead, but then he hit me with his club for 19. Sigh. Maybe
> > that +2 animal skin wasn't the best choice of armour, I had +0 orcish
> > splint mail which would have given me much armour but poor evasion.

> The splint mail would hurt your ability to cast, so I dont blame you
> for what you were wearing.

I didn't realise that armour affected spells, but I see it does.
However...

In my current game I've done better and reached Level 7, and just got
to the ecumenical temple. I had to run from a giant iguana on level 4,
then 5 had a load of creatures, so I ran down a stairs and ended up
here.

I got a +2 orcish ring mail of magic resistance from Ichb or whatever
his name is. I don't feel like taking that off even if it hurts my
spell casting. I also have a ring of wizardry. I found speed potions,
but burned one off trying potions, and the other killing an ogre and my
previously-mentioned ghost. But all in all this one is going much
better.

> I would have made the same choice. Did you
> have any poisoned needles? If so, ogres are very large, with a very
> low evasion, so it is surprisingly easy to hit them with 2 poisoned
> needles, run away (in circles if necessary), and maybe throw one more.
> He will surely die. And if you begin throwing as soon as the ogre
> enters your line of site, you will likely be able to get in 2 to 3 hits
> in before he ever gets close enough to touch you. Very effective.
> Wand of disintegration is a great way to take one out in the early
> game, if you can find one. Its always better to use your resources
> (wand of fire, cold, etc) than die. Often times, zapping and killing
> an early game ogre will give you level up, because they give high exp
> for the early game. Better to level up than die Smile

That was the speed potion, and I did level up.

> > What god should I worship?
>
> Prob Vehumet. He is pleased when you kill stuff.

I'll be doing a bit of that Wink
god you want. Or none.
>
> > What spell-schools should I go for, if I can (I figured summoning
> > couldn't be bad).
> >
> Summoning is advanced, yet doable. It is an indirect form of attack
> magic. It is very useful for creating a few monsters to distract and
> ogre for a minute while you run away. It will buy you a few turns,
> almost like an indirect way of paralyzing an opponent.

That was the idea. But while rats might work, bats don't...

- Gerry Quinn
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Gerry Quinn

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Since: Nov 27, 2004
Posts: 799



(Msg. 6) Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Beginner tips for human reaver? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In article <44AFDCE6.7BB7AE1A.RemoveThis@gmx.net>, nyra.RemoveThis@gmx.net says...
> Gerry Quinn schrieb:

> > What should I plan to learn out of the book of conjurations?
>
> The second-level spell, as soon as you can. Can't remember off the
> cuff what the choices in third-level spells are, but i think they're
> either conjure flame or stone arrow (there are different versions of
> the conjuration book, i think), neither of which is particularly
> impressive. Most conjurations of level 4+ are worth learning.

Thanks. Too late now, though, in my current game I thought the conjure
flame looked good to keep monsters at a distance while I kill them, but
with my armour I can't cast it reliably.

Unfortunately you can't cast it on a square with a monster in. That
would make it terrific.

- Gerry Quinn
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Elethiomel

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Since: Apr 08, 2005
Posts: 264



(Msg. 7) Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Beginner tips for human reaver? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Gerry Quinn wrote:
>
> Thanks. Too late now, though, in my current game I thought the conjure
> flame looked good to keep monsters at a distance while I kill them, but
> with my armour I can't cast it reliably.
>
> Unfortunately you can't cast it on a square with a monster in. That
> would make it terrific.

Just wait 'till you get Fire Storm. That's very castable on squares with
monsters in them.

I am impressed that you can already get reavers off the ground. Their
lower starting skill scores in the respective "useful" skills than
specialist starting characters tends to make them hurt too much to play
for me.

If you want some variety after a few more deaths, try starting out a
Deep Elf Conjurer. They get magic points galore, and rise in the magic
skills much more quickly than human reavers. Don't melee with them,
though, that is never a good idea. Unless you are Erik going for a DEBe win.

Remember that gods who like you to kill stuff (like Vehumet and Okawaru)
only lets you gain piety if you are 'p'raying as you kill. Vehumet is
extra cool for casters because he doesn't consume corpses you 'D'issect
while praying to him. Also, after a while it's a very good idea to be
praying constantly with Vehumet (but wait 'till the current prayer times
out before starting the next one if in a quiet area - book gifts are
only given when *starting* prayer, not when maintaining prayer), because
he gives higher success rates for conjurations and summongings, plus he
gives you warding while praying. Once he likes you enough, of course.
--
A good signature is a concise and original summary of personality. This
is not a good signature.
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Elethiomel

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Since: Apr 08, 2005
Posts: 264



(Msg. 8) Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 8:55 pm
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Martin Read wrote:
> Elethiomel <kkkk RemoveThis @lllllll.mmmm> wrote:
>
>>Remember that gods who like you to kill stuff (like Vehumet and Okawaru)
>>only lets you gain piety if you are 'p'raying as you kill. Vehumet is
>>extra cool for casters because he doesn't consume corpses you 'D'issect
>>while praying to him. Also, after a while it's a very good idea to be
>>praying constantly with Vehumet (but wait 'till the current prayer times
>>out before starting the next one if in a quiet area - book gifts are
>>only given when *starting* prayer, not when maintaining prayer), because
>>he gives higher success rates for conjurations and summongings, plus he
>>gives you warding while praying. Once he likes you enough, of course.
>
>
> There is profit, for those who mean to Reave, in starting the game as a
> fighter or gladiator, and adopting the worship of Vehumet on reaching
> the Ecumenical Temple. The god of destructive magic doesn't make any
> demands regarding *how* you cause death and destruction; he merely
> requires that you cause them with a decent frequency.

Yes, good point. I only meant to point out that the perks of being a
Vehumite are extra good for casters. Channel Energy is even good for
rodslingers, Warding is useful for everyone, and Summoning boost,
Conjurations boost, and spellbook gifts are good for anyone who wants to
*start* spellcasting as well as those who are already doing it.

I guess I wasn't making clear enough that the Vehumet option is good for
anyone who either is a caster or wants to be a (offensive) caster.
--
A good signature is a concise and original summary of personality. This
is not a good signature.
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Martin Read

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Since: Mar 23, 2005
Posts: 552



(Msg. 9) Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Beginner tips for human reaver? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Elethiomel <kkkk.TakeThisOut@lllllll.mmmm> wrote:
>Remember that gods who like you to kill stuff (like Vehumet and Okawaru)
>only lets you gain piety if you are 'p'raying as you kill. Vehumet is
>extra cool for casters because he doesn't consume corpses you 'D'issect
>while praying to him. Also, after a while it's a very good idea to be
>praying constantly with Vehumet (but wait 'till the current prayer times
>out before starting the next one if in a quiet area - book gifts are
>only given when *starting* prayer, not when maintaining prayer), because
>he gives higher success rates for conjurations and summongings, plus he
>gives you warding while praying. Once he likes you enough, of course.

There is profit, for those who mean to Reave, in starting the game as a
fighter or gladiator, and adopting the worship of Vehumet on reaching
the Ecumenical Temple. The god of destructive magic doesn't make any
demands regarding *how* you cause death and destruction; he merely
requires that you cause them with a decent frequency.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
\_\/_/ http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/dungeonbash/
\ / "tempted white eyes blinded by the night hollow like the towers from the
\/ inside laura's a machine she's burning insane" fields of the nephilim
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Getix

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Since: May 25, 2005
Posts: 74



(Msg. 10) Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 11:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Beginner tips for human reaver? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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> My advice would be to pick something easier to start out with. Human
> Reaver is a very advanced combo. To use one effectively you need to
> juggle your skills well and survive the early-mid game when your
> fighting and spellcasting are both weaker than a pure character.

I fully agree.

As a starting class, IMHO, you should choose something like Demigod Fighter
o Demonspawn Fighter..
Higher stats, higher HP makes starting easier Smile
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Gerry Quinn

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Since: Nov 27, 2004
Posts: 799



(Msg. 11) Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:55 am
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In article <44aff284.RemoveThis@news.broadpark.no>, kkkk.RemoveThis@lllllll.mmmm says...
>
> I am impressed that you can already get reavers off the ground. Their
> lower starting skill scores in the respective "useful" skills than
> specialist starting characters tends to make them hurt too much to play
> for me.

I've not played Crawl before, but I've played a lot of other roguelike
games and I know the ground-rules.

My best reaver got to Level 7, and died of over-confidence - he found a
nice weapon and went back to finish an armed orc warrior he'd been had
to run from twice after fairly even struggles. He forgot that most of
his 'escape-clause' items were used up...

I'm still getting enough variety with HuRe that I don't need to
increase it further by trying another combo. But it's nice to know
that I will be noticeably better at some stuff when I do switch...

What I like about HuRe is that it is not specialised, so you learn
about a few different things.

- Gerry Quinn
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johan.strandell

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Since: Mar 04, 2006
Posts: 80



(Msg. 12) Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:19 am
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Gerry Quinn wrote:

> I'm still getting enough variety with HuRe that I don't need to
> increase it further by trying another combo. But it's nice to know
> that I will be noticeably better at some stuff when I do switch...

It might be worthwhile running a few pure fighters and a few pure
conjurers so you can get a feel for how reavers differ from both of
them. You could likewise try a few other races to get a feel for how
the skill aptitudes work.

But if you like HeRe:s then play. They might be a good way of
sightseeing in Crawl since they have most of the options open.

> What I like about HuRe is that it is not specialised, so you learn
> about a few different things.

Someone described humans as generalists in a game that rewards
specialisation. And I think that goes for Reavers too. So if you find
Crawl hard, that's part of the explanation. (The other part is that
Crawl *is* hard.)

--
Johan
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