Barrin's Spite and Cannibalize

On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 01:01:28 -0500, B M <someone DeleteThis @somewhere.com> wrote:
> The rulings in Gatherer state that which creature is to be sacrifice
>and which creature is to be unsummoned (or receive two +1/+1 counters)
>is all chosen during Announcement. Is that true? It seems like it
>should be done during resolution.

That is true, because we have a rule that if a spell or ability will affect
different targets in different ways, you have to choose on announcement
which target(s) get affected which way(s) - 409.1e . And yes, Cannibalize and
Barrin's Spite are two of the canonical examples for why this rule is needed.

>Cannibalize >1B >Sorcery
>Choose a player and two target creatures that player
>controls. You remove one from the game and put two +1/+1 counters on the other.
> *10/4/2004 You choose the two target creatures during announcement,
>and you choose which gets the counters and which is to get removed from
>the game during announcement as well.
>
>Barrin's Spite >2UB >Sorcery
>Choose a player and two target creatures that player
>controls. The player chooses and sacrifices one of them. Return the
>other to its owner's hand.
> * 10/4/2004 If one the creatures is an illegal target on
>resolution, then the other one is still affected as chosen.
> * 10/4/2004 The player chooses which one to sacrifice and which to
>return on announcement.

Dave
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B M <someone.DeleteThis@somewhere.com> wrote:

> The rulings in Gatherer state that which creature is to be sacrifice
> and which creature is to be unsummoned (or receive two +1/+1 counters)
> is all chosen during Announcement. Is that true? It seems like it
> should be done during resolution.

The key word here is "target". Targets are chosen during announcement
regardless of the way the text is written -- "choose" doesn't have any
special meaning regarding to announcement or resolution, it simply tells
you to "choose".

If a card says that you have to "choose a target", you select what
target it is during announcement, then on resolution you follow the
instructions and "choose" it (which does Nothing useful), then, finally,
you do what the rest of the card says (sacrifice it, putting counters on
it, and so on). It's just a way to make the card's text clearer, rather
than putting ugly things such as "target creature controlled by the same
player" in the middle of the instructions.

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David DeLaney <dbd DeleteThis @gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:

> And yes, Cannibalize and
> Barrin's Spite are two of the canonical examples for why this rule is needed.

Duh. -1 to me for not reading the question correctly. Sorry.

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B M <someone.RemoveThis@somewhere.com> sent:
> The rulings in Gatherer state that which creature is to be sacrifice
> and which creature is to be unsummoned (or receive two +1/+1 counters)
> is all chosen during Announcement. Is that true? It seems like it
> should be done during resolution.

The stuff that you do on announcement is all laid out in rule 409.1.
The general rule of thumb is that targeting, and things about which
target is which, are done on announcement. Choosing things that are
not targets, that's all done on resolution.

Cannibalize {1}{B} Sorcery
/ Choose a player and two target creatures that player controls. You
remove one from the game and put two +1/+1 counters on the other.

> *10/4/2004 You choose the two target creatures during announcement,
> and you choose which gets the counters and which is to get removed from
> the game during announcement as well.

This is due to rule 409.1e:

409.1e If the spell or ability affects several targets in different
ways, the player announces how it will affect each target. If the
spell or ability requires the player to divide or distribute an
effect (such as damage or counters) among one or more targets, or any
number of untargeted objects or players, the player announces the
division. Each of these targets, objects, or players must receive at
least one of whatever is being divided.

You have to announce how the Cannibalize will affect each target - which
one it will remove from the game, and which one it will put counters
onto.

Barrin's Spite {2}{U}{B} Sorcery
/ Choose a player and two target creatures that player controls. The
player chooses and sacrifices one of them. Return the other to its
owner's hand.

> * 10/4/2004 If one the creatures is an illegal target on
> resolution, then the other one is still affected as chosen.
> * 10/4/2004 The player chooses which one to sacrifice and which to
> return on announcement.

This is 409.1e again, but with a dash of 409.2:

409.2. Some spells and abilities specify that one of their
controller's opponents does something the controller would normally
do while it's being played, such as choose a mode, choose targets, or
choose how the spell or ability will affect its targets. In these
cases, the opponent does so when the spell or ability's controller
normally would do so.

This applies if you happen to choose an opponent as the player - the
opponent then gets to say which one gets returned to hand and which one
gets sacrificed. If you happen to choose yourself, then you also make
the choice of which creature is which. But it's all done during
announcement, regardless of who's involved.

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