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Next: 7drl completion announcement - ASCIIWAR
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Since: Feb 05, 2008 Posts: 11
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:20 pm
Post subject: 7drl starting announcement Archived from groups: rec>games>roguelike>development (more info?)
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Well. I haven't written a roguelike before, but I've been trying to
plan one successfully for about five or six years. Mostly or more or
less entirely all of it on paper. I lost some notes.
I put the really, really old one on the back burner, then lost it,
then put the really old one on the back burner, then just the old one,
then I lost both the really old and just simply normally old ones. And
then I was planning one out recently, this year actually, and when I
heard about the 7drl I put it on the back burner and decided to whip
up a small, simple one just to get it out in the spirit of the
contest.
And my notes started to form some outlining, of course, to keep it all
organized.
And the outlining got really well-done and formatter, and I had to
keep up with conventionalising my method of formatting my outlining of
my notes, see, not really code, yet, can't have that. I hadn't gone
past coding, yet. (I'm an amateur coder so I don't want to crawl
through anybody else's thick commentaries and a web of #DEFINES,
really).
Actually the previous one, which I have now backburnered for the sake
of 7drl, at first I wanted to code it in ASM very badly but I couldn't
get ahold of an old DOS machine and I'd already tried the windows
skeleton and didn't want it. So I had been working on a virtual x86
BIOS (for direct screen-writes), running DOS with most interrupts
ready (I was going to make it compatible with FreeDOS), with an
attached high-level-assembler-interpreter (I was going to model it on
SpASM/RosAsm), with a plan to eventually implement pseudo-QEMM and
pseudo-DesqView and other typical environments (and to implement
ANSI.SYS fairly early on), and to emulate an EGA legacy video memory.
So I could program games for old DOS computers in assembler without
there being an old DOS computer anywhere in the known existence of
humankind including the spaces of scrapyards and asteroid belts. I
needed to make it~! And I needed it to be online-available from just
about any public computer, to meet my demands of availability. So I
was going to code it all in pure JAVA.
And I didn't. Instead I wrote a scathing livejournal entry about how
terrible JAVA is for programmers to read about, reference, use, or
implement, and then soon after I read a slashdot article about these
programmers who had just finished, days later, writing a scathing
report under the pay of the U.S. Air Force about defense software, how
it cannot rely on JAVA and how it cannot rely on JAVA-trained
programmers, and then I just wanted to give up.
Then I heard about 7DRL and built a header for quickly generating ANSI
codes and started on a much smaller roguelike just to make the
contest.
But I digress. Anyways, my outlines started to develope into ANSI-C. I
swear it, they "emerged". And I realised I couldn't possibly plan my
roguelike without outlines, so I trudged forward. And eventually, to
keep it all organized I was writing my notes down in a text editor and
they inevitably turned into code.
I'm sorry, I didn't mean for them to do that, because I wanted to
start on February 8th as was unscientifically reported here in RGRD.
But they are doing it themselves. I don't know if they will get done
when you said they should, and I don't know if I'm going to release
something unplayable. But I'm not working on it -- I'm just outlining
it and it's "emerging".
I didn't start with anybody's code except whoever wrote stdlib.h , and
I only have access to public computers, not my own, only certain times
of the day. So I don't think that the resulting mutation will be from
the same strain as most of the rest working here, so we should all be
safe.
Features will include:
* comes with freeansi.h, also available at http://www.lunarsurf.com/~eyenot/freeansi.h
* (above version may be slightly out of update)
* (don't cheer, it's just for my own use)
* a lot of tiles, but not all of them at once
* objects AND stairways
* a light map
* some potions
* (if source code is released) commentary will be in the source code
in some places >> Stay informed about: 7drl starting announcement |
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Since: Oct 17, 2007 Posts: 14
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:41 pm
Post subject: Re: 7drl starting announcement [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Feb 6, 11:20 am, eye....DeleteThis@gmail.com wrote:
> Well. I haven't written a roguelike before, but I've been trying to
> plan one successfully for about five or six years. Mostly or more or
> less entirely all of it on paper. I lost some notes.
>
> I put the really, really old one on the back burner, then lost it,
> then put the really old one on the back burner, then just the old one,
> then I lost both the really old and just simply normally old ones. And
> then I was planning one out recently, this year actually, and when I
> heard about the 7drl I put it on the back burner and decided to whip
> up a small, simple one just to get it out in the spirit of the
> contest.
>
> And my notes started to form some outlining, of course, to keep it all
> organized.
>
> And the outlining got really well-done and formatter, and I had to
> keep up with conventionalising my method of formatting my outlining of
> my notes, see, not really code, yet, can't have that. I hadn't gone
> past coding, yet. (I'm an amateur coder so I don't want to crawl
> through anybody else's thick commentaries and a web of #DEFINES,
> really).
>
> Actually the previous one, which I have now backburnered for the sake
> of 7drl, at first I wanted to code it in ASM very badly but I couldn't
> get ahold of an old DOS machine and I'd already tried the windows
> skeleton and didn't want it. So I had been working on a virtual x86
> BIOS (for direct screen-writes), running DOS with most interrupts
> ready (I was going to make it compatible with FreeDOS), with an
> attached high-level-assembler-interpreter (I was going to model it on
> SpASM/RosAsm), with a plan to eventually implement pseudo-QEMM and
> pseudo-DesqView and other typical environments (and to implement
> ANSI.SYS fairly early on), and to emulate an EGA legacy video memory.
> So I could program games for old DOS computers in assembler without
> there being an old DOS computer anywhere in the known existence of
> humankind including the spaces of scrapyards and asteroid belts. I
> needed to make it~! And I needed it to be online-available from just
> about any public computer, to meet my demands of availability. So I
> was going to code it all in pure JAVA.
>
> And I didn't. Instead I wrote a scathing livejournal entry about how
> terrible JAVA is for programmers to read about, reference, use, or
> implement, and then soon after I read a slashdot article about these
> programmers who had just finished, days later, writing a scathing
> report under the pay of the U.S. Air Force about defense software, how
> it cannot rely on JAVA and how it cannot rely on JAVA-trained
> programmers, and then I just wanted to give up.
>
> Then I heard about 7DRL and built a header for quickly generating ANSI
> codes and started on a much smaller roguelike just to make the
> contest.
>
> But I digress. Anyways, my outlines started to develope into ANSI-C. I
> swear it, they "emerged". And I realised I couldn't possibly plan my
> roguelike without outlines, so I trudged forward. And eventually, to
> keep it all organized I was writing my notes down in a text editor and
> they inevitably turned into code.
>
> I'm sorry, I didn't mean for them to do that, because I wanted to
> start on February 8th as was unscientifically reported here in RGRD.
> But they are doing it themselves. I don't know if they will get done
> when you said they should, and I don't know if I'm going to release
> something unplayable. But I'm not working on it -- I'm just outlining
> it and it's "emerging".
>
> I didn't start with anybody's code except whoever wrote stdlib.h , and
> I only have access to public computers, not my own, only certain times
> of the day. So I don't think that the resulting mutation will be from
> the same strain as most of the rest working here, so we should all be
> safe.
>
> Features will include:
> * comes with freeansi.h, also available athttp://www.lunarsurf.com/~eyenot/freeansi.h
> * (above version may be slightly out of update)
> * (don't cheer, it's just for my own use)
> * a lot of tiles, but not all of them at once
> * objects AND stairways
> * a light map
> * some potions
> * (if source code is released) commentary will be in the source code
> in some places
As I was ready this post I decided to read it to understand what you
are staying that is to say understand this post and then finish it
later but I finished it now so you are writing a 7drl I hope you
finish.
Good luck. >> Stay informed about: 7drl starting announcement |
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Gelatinous Mutant Coconut
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Since: Nov 14, 2007 Posts: 6
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:30 pm
Post subject: Re: 7drl starting announcement [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"freeansi.h" interests me; I am looking forward to seeing how it works
out. It looks like it has almost everything from Curses that I ever
use (except for getch(), addch(), noecho() and cbreak(); I will need
to see how you implement similar functions). If it goes well, I will
definitely use your library instead of Curses.
Good luck! >> Stay informed about: 7drl starting announcement |
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Since: Nov 21, 2007 Posts: 15
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:00 pm
Post subject: Re: 7drl starting announcement [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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There's not too many "amateur" (as you call yourself) programmers who
bother to learn x86 ASM, and fewer who would actually be skilled
enough to be considering coding with it, especially BIOS work. I'm
curious... in an era of high-level programmers and interface script-
kiddies, how'd you get into such special niche? >> Stay informed about: 7drl starting announcement |
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Since: Dec 11, 2007 Posts: 83
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 12:30 am
Post subject: Re: 7drl starting announcement [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Since: Nov 23, 2007 Posts: 39
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:05 pm
Post subject: Re: 7drl starting announcement [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In a state of madness Corremn wrote the following :
>> Features will include:
>> * comes with freeansi.h, also available athttp://www.lunarsurf.com/~eyenot/freeansi.h
>> * (above version may be slightly out of update)
>> * (don't cheer, it's just for my own use)
>> * a lot of tiles, but not all of them at once
>> * objects AND stairways
>> * a light map
>> * some potions
>> * (if source code is released) commentary will be in the source code
>> in some places
>
> As I was ready this post I decided to read it to understand what you
> are staying that is to say understand this post and then finish it
> later but I finished it now so you are writing a 7drl I hope you
> finish.
Kudos to you Corremn -- your reply made my morning  .
regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz >> Stay informed about: 7drl starting announcement |
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Since: Oct 17, 2007 Posts: 14
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:13 pm
Post subject: Re: 7drl starting announcement [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Feb 7, 12:05 am, Kornel Kisielewicz <admin RemoveThis @nospam_chaosforge.org>
wrote:
> In a state of madness Corremn wrote the following :
>
> >> Features will include:
> >> * comes with freeansi.h, also available athttp://www.lunarsurf.com/~eyenot/freeansi.h
> >> * (above version may be slightly out of update)
> >> * (don't cheer, it's just for my own use)
> >> * a lot of tiles, but not all of them at once
> >> * objects AND stairways
> >> * a light map
> >> * some potions
> >> * (if source code is released) commentary will be in the source code
> >> in some places
>
> > As I was ready this post I decided to read it to understand what you
> > are staying that is to say understand this post and then finish it
> > later but I finished it now so you are writing a 7drl I hope you
> > finish.
>
> Kudos to you Corremn -- your reply made my morning .
>
> regards,
> Kornel Kisielewicz
I aim to please
And no disrespect to the OP was intended and I look forward to playing
your game. >> Stay informed about: 7drl starting announcement |
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Since: Feb 05, 2008 Posts: 11
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 5:45 pm
Post subject: Re: 7drl starting announcement [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Feb 6, 1:00 am, Craig <craig.stic....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> There's not too many "amateur" (as you call yourself) programmers who
> bother to learn x86 ASM, and fewer who would actually be skilled
> enough to be considering coding with it, especially BIOS work. I'm
> curious... in an era of high-level programmers and interface script-
> kiddies, how'd you get into such special niche?
I consider myself amateur. I've never coded for work, or with others
on a project.
BIOS work seems to me to be just as simple as necessary. I was going
to, in the case of that abandoned project, set up the virtual x86 with
permanent, generic mouse and keyboard, etc. I was mainly hoping to use
BIOS to allow greater command of the EGA legacy video. On a side note,
I briefly toyed with the idea of creating a screen of MS-DHTML divs
that were event-linked to a variable that would behave as EGA video
memory, with artificial page breaks (to support both those who
directly page EGA video and those who set it up more linearly), and
which was event-linked back to the divs; I ran into the same problem,
that DHTML is not very comprehensibly documented and doesn't even
maintain internally a standard naming convention. So I don't see BIOS
as necessarily a "bar" for skill, any more than I see "asm" that way
though a lot of people do: I choose ASM because it's very simple and
effective, and there is absolutely no question about what's going on
within your program. A lot of people are discouraged by it, but they
don't have to be: HLA, implemented properly, can breeze your cares
away. I try to tell people who I want to see get into it, "it's like
playing with legos. You don't want to play with only things other
people put together, do you?"
I'm running out of time on the public computer. I will respond
tomorrow. >> Stay informed about: 7drl starting announcement |
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Since: Nov 21, 2007 Posts: 15
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:12 am
Post subject: Re: 7drl starting announcement [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Feb 7, 6:45 pm, eye....TakeThisOut@gmail.com wrote:
> I consider myself amateur. I've never coded for work, or with others
> on a project.
>
> BIOS work seems to me to be just as simple as necessary. I was going
> to, in the case of that abandoned project, set up the virtual x86 with
> permanent, generic mouse and keyboard, etc.
>
> (awesomeness cut out to save space )
>
> So I don't see BIOS as necessarily a "bar" for skill, any more than
> I see "asm" that way though a lot of people do: I choose ASM
> because it's very simple and effective, and there is absolutely no
> question about what's going on within your program.
I see BIOS work and ASM skill as an indicator of your affinity for
coding. I believe it's a mentality rather than a skillset: rather than
simply study abstractions and data access models you have actually
gone out of your way to learn *how* the computer thinks. You know what
the compiler is converting your statements into. You are not limited
by language, you are not limited by compilers; you can do things that
are impossible to do with other languages and platforms.
I know from my own experience that for larger projects it's nice to be
able to use something a little higher level, but you always have that
ace up your sleeve when the time comes. Don't like the display engine?
Make a better one. Memory manager too restrictive or wasteful? Make
one. Pathfinding slows to a crawl once 80 dwarves populate your
settlement? (sorry Toady) You can optimize! .. and better that what is
even theoretically possible with C/C++.
> A lot of people are discouraged by it, but they don't have to be: HLA,
> implemented properly, can breeze your cares away. I try to tell
> people who I want to see get into it, "it's like playing with legos.
> You don't want to play with only things other people put together,
> do you?"
Good analogy!
Martin Read joked:
> I don't want to hand-carve or injection-mould my own bricks, either
Ha ha! That's true sometimes!
But what happens when you really need a piece that doesn't exist?
I design electronics and software for a living. When I get a project,
I don't make the computing platform from the transistor level up, even
though I can. It's inefficient. But when I'm doing a contract and no
hardware exists that can do what I want, I am not limited to what AMD,
Dell, Intel, Microsoft, NVidia, D-Link, GeForce, ARM, Apple or Toshiba
dish out.
You bring up a good point though. You can go as far back as you want,
the trick is to not be stupid about it. The problem is that once you
know how to do it from scratch, it's hard to let go and let the
compiler do stuff because you can do it so much better. Then you're
stuck trying to carve every lego block you use by hand: it should be a
cap of the "feather-in-your" variety, rather than the "handi" type. >> Stay informed about: 7drl starting announcement |
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Since: Mar 23, 2005 Posts: 552
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 9:17 am
Post subject: Re: 7drl starting announcement [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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eyenot.TakeThisOut@gmail.com wrote:
>I try to tell people who I want to see get into it, "it's like
>playing with legos. You don't want to play with only things other
>people put together, do you?"
I don't want to hand-carve or injection-mould my own bricks, either
--
\_\/_/ some girls wander by mistake into the mess that scalpels make
\ / are you the teachers of my heart? we teach old hearts to break
\/ --- Leonard Cohen, "Teachers" >> Stay informed about: 7drl starting announcement |
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Since: Feb 05, 2008 Posts: 11
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:36 am
Post subject: Re: 7drl starting announcement [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Feb 6, 12:30 am, Gelatinous Mutant Coconut
<GelatinousMutantCoco....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> "freeansi.h" interests me; I am looking forward to seeing how it works
> out. It looks like it has almost everything from Curses that I ever
> use (except for getch(), addch(), noecho() and cbreak(); I will need
There are some simple x364 (ANSI) codes that return various data, but
sometimes there is a delay while the data is arriving, so I will have
to make a function that waits for the expected signal before returning
the data. I intended to do that after I have finished this 7drl. I am
not sure yet about the other functions.
> to see how you implement similar functions). If it goes well, I will
> definitely use your library instead of Curses.
>
Feel free to use the freeansi header as a base for anything you like,
or to modify it in any way. Thank you for your interest. >> Stay informed about: 7drl starting announcement |
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Since: Feb 05, 2008 Posts: 11
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:36 am
Post subject: Re: 7drl starting announcement [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Feb 6, 3:30 am, Krice <pau... RemoveThis @mbnet.fi> wrote:
> On 6 helmi, 03:20, eye... RemoveThis @gmail.com wrote:
>
> > I only have access to public computers, not my own, only certain
> > times of the day.
>
> Explain this.
Well, I am homeless, so I have to rely on library computers and open-
times. >> Stay informed about: 7drl starting announcement |
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Since: Feb 05, 2008 Posts: 11
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:40 am
Post subject: Re: 7drl starting announcement [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Feb 8, 4:17 am, Martin Read <mpr....DeleteThis@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> eye....DeleteThis@gmail.com wrote:
> >I try to tell people who I want to see get into it, "it's like
> >playing with legos. You don't want to play with only things other
> >people put together, do you?"
>
> I don't want to hand-carve or injection-mould my own bricks, either
> --
> \_\/_/ some girls wander by mistake into the mess that scalpels make
> \ / are you the teachers of my heart? we teach old hearts to break
> \/ --- Leonard Cohen, "Teachers"
Heh! I hadn't thought of that response.
Well. If you are working on making a specific thing and either:
a. you're missing a vitally important block
b. the lego company does not make such block
c. the blocks off the store shelves aren't behaving properly or won't
stick together
... then you will just have to whittle and/or mould your own, though. >> Stay informed about: 7drl starting announcement |
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Since: Nov 21, 2007 Posts: 15
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:30 pm
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Since: Nov 21, 2007 Posts: 15
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:47 pm
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On Feb 8, 12:50 pm, Martin Read <mpr... DeleteThis @chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
> I write OS-kernel-level software (device drivers, board support packages)
> for a living. I only write assembly code to do things that can't be done
> in C, like "initialise the system to the point where the C compiler's
> assumptions will actually work" or "address the processor's internal MMU
> control registers" or "invoke the processor's I/O sequencing enforcement
> mechanisms" - and for the latter two cases, I write the assembly code in
> such a way that the resulting function can be called from C.
Which in my mind is exactly what it should be used for. Cool! >> Stay informed about: 7drl starting announcement |
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