a few more questions (3.5E)

richard d wrote:
> 1) A spell which requires a melee touch attack doesn't discharge until
> the touch is successful. Is it the case, however, that a spell with a
> ranged touch attack discharges whether the ranged touch was succesful
> or not? This would make sense, since the ray (or whatever) fires out of
> your hand regardless of whether you hit with it.

Your conclusion and reasoning are correct.

> 2) Old D&D, ISTR, said
that when you went up a level your experience
> points went down to the minimum needed to qualify for that level (i.e.
> you started the level from scratch). Does 3E have this rule, and if not
> does that mean that you can go up by more than one level at a time?

No - there was a rule (may have been optional) that if your character
received enough experience to gain 2 levels, you reduced to just below
what was needed for the second level. Given how the
experience/challenge is logically set up, though, this situation is
very unlikely to happen (any encounter that would raise you up two
levels is likely to be fatal - TPK)

> 3) Does anyone else think WEB is an incredibly powerful spell? I ran a
> combat yesterday where 8 3rd level characters took on a 6th level Wiz,
> a 4th level Wiz and 4 1st level fighters (slitheren rat people,
> actually, in an underground setting), and the party was nearly wiped
> out (2 dead, 1 stabilised at -9) thanks to Web spells. Web combined
> with Summon Swarm (spiders makes sense), seems particularly effective too.

You should read the DMG section on encounter levels and challenge
ratings carefully. Depending on the setup, the 6th level Wizard could
have wiped out the entire party by himself. Web is OK, not overpowered
- a lot depends on other circumstances.
 >> Stay informed about: a few more questions (3.5E) 

With regards to the encounter difficulty, please enlighten me on this.

I thought the encounter was 50/50, and I think they only lost a couple
of characters because they made a few mistakes. Not serious mistakes,
but in a 50/50 encounter small mistakes can be costly.

Anyway, the DMG says first of all find the average party level, but
then it doesn't tell you what to do about the higher party numbers.

Clearly 8x3rd level characters is a more powerful force than 4x3rd
level characters, but how do you adjust the average party level for
this?

The only thing I can think of is to make the same rule as for monsters
(if I've understood that right) and make 8x3rd level characters the
equivalent of double 4x3rd level, which adds 2 to giev an average level
of 5.

As an encoutner, 8x3rd level has an ECL of 9.

The encounter itself was a 6 plus a 4 plus four halves. This is an ECL
of 7, which is difficult but not impossible.

Richard
 >> Stay informed about: a few more questions (3.5E) 

With regards to the encounter difficulty, please enlighten me on this.

I thought the encounter was 50/50, and I think they only lost a couple
of characters because they made a few mistakes. Not serious mistakes,
but in a 50/50 encounter small mistakes can be costly.

Anyway, the DMG says first of all find the average party level, but
then it doesn't tell you what to do about the higher party numbers.

Clearly 8x3rd level characters is a more powerful force than 4x3rd
level characters, but how do you adjust the average party level for
this?

The only thing I can think of is to make the same rule as for monsters
(if I've understood that right) and make 8x3rd level characters the
equivalent of double 4x3rd level, which adds 2 to giev an average level
of 5.

As an encoutner, 8x3rd level has an ECL of 9.

The encounter itself was a 6 plus a 4 plus four halves. This is an ECL
of 7, which is difficult but not impossible.

Richard
 >> Stay informed about: a few more questions (3.5E) 

I beg your pardon - don't know how this ended up here twice.

Richard
 >> Stay informed about: a few more questions (3.5E) 

Eric P. wrote:
> In article <1154435875.055654.67070.TakeThisOut@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> alordofchaos wrote:
> > No - there was a rule (may have been optional) that if your character
> > received enough experience to gain 2 levels, you reduced to just below
> > what was needed for the second level. Given how the
> > experience/challenge is logically set up, though, this situation is
> > very unlikely to happen (any encounter that would raise you up two
> > levels is likely to be fatal - TPK)
>
> Less fatal at higher levels. I had a party of four 13th - 15th level PCs
> defeat a 13th level druid and a 15th level ranger plus their companion
> creatures as the culmination of a short adventure, and the resulting
> XP bumped the 13th level PC up two levels. This was in 3.5e rules.

Are you supposed to include companion creatures when awarding XP?

If not, I figure four 13th level characters would receive 2,925 xp each
from defeating a 13th level character and a 15th level character.

Could someone check my math?
 >> Stay informed about: a few more questions (3.5E) 

richard d wrote:
> With regards to the encounter difficulty, please enlighten me on this.
>
> I thought the encounter was 50/50, and I think they only lost a couple
> of characters because they made a few mistakes. Not serious mistakes,
> but in a 50/50 encounter small mistakes can be costly.
>
> Anyway, the DMG says first of all find the average party level, but
> then it doesn't tell you what to do about the higher party numbers.
>
> Clearly 8x3rd level characters is a more powerful force than 4x3rd
> level characters, but how do you adjust the average party level for
> this?
>
> The only thing I can think of is to make the same rule as for monsters
> (if I've understood that right) and make 8x3rd level characters the
> equivalent of double 4x3rd level, which adds 2 to giev an average level
> of 5.
>

That's how I do it, but nothing works really well with large parties.

> As an encoutner, 8x3rd level has an ECL of 9.
>
> The encounter itself was a 6 plus a 4 plus four halves. This is an ECL
> of 7, which is difficult but not impossible.

IIRC that's correct. If this was a "boss encounter" that's about
right.

- Justisaur
 >> Stay informed about: a few more questions (3.5E) 

richard d wrote:
> Once again, all help gratefully received.
>
> 1) A spell which requires a melee touch attack doesn't discharge until
> the touch is successful. Is it the case, however, that a spell with a
> ranged touch attack discharges whether the ranged touch was succesful
> or not? This would make sense, since the ray (or whatever) fires out of
> your hand regardless of whether you hit with it.
>

Correct.

> 2) Old D&D, ISTR, said that when you went up a level your experience
> points went down to the minimum needed to qualify for that level (i.e.
> you started the level from scratch). Does 3E have this rule, and if not
> does that mean that you can go up by more than one level at a time?

No such rule. There might be something about not going up more than
one level at a time but IIRC I don't think so. I put a limit on it as
a house rule though if not.

>
> 3) Does anyone else think WEB is an incredibly powerful spell? I ran a
> combat yesterday where 8 3rd level characters took on a 6th level Wiz,
> a 4th level Wiz and 4 1st level fighters (slitheren rat people,
> actually, in an underground setting), and the party was nearly wiped
> out (2 dead, 1 stabilised at -9) thanks to Web spells. Web combined
> with Summon Swarm (spiders makes sense), seems particularly effective
> too.

Ah yes, web and summon swarm, my favorite low level conjurer combo.
Cast and wait for weak things to die. That used to be great in 3.0.
Not quite as good in 3.5, a person so trapped that has a torch can
pretty much take care of both in short order. The cover the web
provides can be a curse as much as a blessing as well. The party
wizard used web on some rogues (he didn't know were rogues) this gave
them the opportunity to hide and get out of the web allowing for a
couple of sneak attacks.

Web is definitely one of the more powerful 2nd lv spells when used by
an intelligent wizard or sorcerer in the right circumstances. It's not
good enough for a 3rd lv spell though.

- Justisaur
 >> Stay informed about: a few more questions (3.5E) 

richard d wrote:
> With regards to the encounter difficulty, please enlighten me on this.
>
> I thought the encounter was 50/50, and I think they only lost a couple
> of characters because they made a few mistakes. Not serious mistakes,
> but in a 50/50 encounter small mistakes can be costly.
>
> Anyway, the DMG says first of all find the average party level, but
> then it doesn't tell you what to do about the higher party numbers.
>
> Clearly 8x3rd level characters is a more powerful force than 4x3rd
> level characters, but how do you adjust the average party level for
> this?
>
> The only thing I can think of is to make the same rule as for monsters
> (if I've understood that right) and make 8x3rd level characters the
> equivalent of double 4x3rd level, which adds 2 to giev an average
> level of 5.
>
> As an encoutner, 8x3rd level has an ECL of 9.
>
> The encounter itself was a 6 plus a 4 plus four halves. This is an ECL
> of 7, which is difficult but not impossible.

Read Spiro's thread on Challenge Rating, started yesterday. I think most of
your questions are covered there.

An EL6 encounter is not massively overpowering for a group of eight
3rd-level characters, but a single CR6 creature is a lot more dangerous to
them individually than an EL6 encounter composed of several less powerful
opponents.


--
Mark.
 >> Stay informed about: a few more questions (3.5E) 

richard d wrote:

> 2) Old D&D, ISTR, said that when you went up a level your experience
> points went down to the minimum needed to qualify for that level (i.e.
> you started the level from scratch). Does 3E have this rule, and if
> not does that mean that you can go up by more than one level at a
> time?

Generally speaking, characters should not earn enough XP to level up more
than once at a time (I seem to recall there's a rule somewhere that they
will stop earning extra XP if they reach this point, but I'm not certain),
but the situation should not tend to occur. If it does, the DM is awarding
XP too infrequently.

--
Mark.
 >> Stay informed about: a few more questions (3.5E) 

In article <1154435875.055654.67070 DeleteThis @75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
alordofchaos DeleteThis @yahoo.com wrote:

> richard d wrote:
> > 1) A spell which requires a melee touch attack doesn't discharge until
> > the touch is successful. Is it the case, however, that a spell with a
> > ranged touch attack discharges whether the ranged touch was succesful
> > or not? This would make sense, since the ray (or whatever) fires out of
> > your hand regardless of whether you hit with it.
>
> Your conclusion and reasoning are correct.
>
> > 2) Old D&D, ISTR, said
> that when you went up a level your experience
> > points went down to the minimum needed to qualify for that level (i.e.
> > you started the level from scratch). Does 3E have this rule, and if not
> > does that mean that you can go up by more than one level at a time?
>
> No - there was a rule (may have been optional) that if your character
> received enough experience to gain 2 levels, you reduced to just below
> what was needed for the second level. Given how the
> experience/challenge is logically set up, though, this situation is
> very unlikely to happen (any encounter that would raise you up two
> levels is likely to be fatal - TPK)

Less fatal at higher levels. I had a party of four 13th - 15th level PCs
defeat a 13th level druid and a 15th level ranger plus their companion
creatures as the culmination of a short adventure, and the resulting
XP bumped the 13th level PC up two levels. This was in 3.5e rules.
No PC died, and the enemy druid was set free, with serious conditions.

YMMV
- E
 >> Stay informed about: a few more questions (3.5E) 

alordofchaos RemoveThis @yahoo.com wrote:
> Eric P. wrote:
>> In article <1154435875.055654.67070 RemoveThis @75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
>> alordofchaos wrote:
>>> No - there was a rule (may have been optional) that if your
>>> character received enough experience to gain 2 levels, you reduced
>>> to just below what was needed for the second level. Given how the
>>> experience/challenge is logically set up, though, this situation is
>>> very unlikely to happen (any encounter that would raise you up two
>>> levels is likely to be fatal - TPK)
>>
>> Less fatal at higher levels. I had a party of four 13th - 15th level
>> PCs defeat a 13th level druid and a 15th level ranger plus their
>> companion creatures as the culmination of a short adventure, and the
>> resulting
>> XP bumped the 13th level PC up two levels. This was in 3.5e rules.
>
> Are you supposed to include companion creatures when awarding XP?
>
> If not, I figure four 13th level characters would receive 2,925 xp
> each from defeating a 13th level character and a 15th level character.
>
> Could someone check my math?

You're right on both counts.

--
Mark.
 >> Stay informed about: a few more questions (3.5E) 

"richard d" <richard.DeleteThis@skaro.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1154443575.616356.301060@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Clearly 8x3rd level characters is a more powerful force than 4x3rd
> level characters, but how do you adjust the average party level for
> this?
>
> The only thing I can think of is to make the same rule as for monsters
> (if I've understood that right) and make 8x3rd level characters the
> equivalent of double 4x3rd level, which adds 2 to giev an average level
> of 5.

APL=5 is about right.

>
> As an encoutner, 8x3rd level has an ECL of 9.
>
> The encounter itself was a 6 plus a 4 plus four halves. This is an ECL
> of 7, which is difficult but not impossible.

When you get lots of variable monster CRs, calcing the encounter level gets
to be a bit screwy. Essentially, it isn't a closed mathmatical system. I
work from the bottom up, and then apply some experience; it's part math and
part art to get the number right.

4 CR1/2 critters is CR2. CR4 and CR2 is CR5. CR6 and CR5 is more than 7
and less than 8; CR6+CR4 would be EL7, while 2 CR6 would be EL8.

Your original description was that the mooks were 4 1st level fighters
(rat-people something). I'm not familiar with the base type, but unless
they're pretty ineffective, they very well may CR1 each. An equipped human
Ftr1 is CR1. If so, this then moves to a base EL of 8.

Environment also figures into things. If the wizards are coordinated to
cast web and summan swarm in an enclosed environment, that might be enough
to bump it one. Swarms against immobile opponents are just nasty; even vs.
slowed opponements.

All told, I would be leaning toward an EL of 8 here..a high 8. I would
expect a high chance of PC death here. The fact that you got two deaths
seems like a reasonable outcome. When you through out EL=APL+3 encounters,
you should expect it to be risky.

It just isn't all about the numbers. 8 3rd level characters have less
flexibility than 4 5th level PCs do. You have a good chance of several of
them being essentially out of action for the entire combat (either
unconscious early, webbed the entire time, etc).

As a final note, the resources that the PCs have for developping PCs matters
too. Experienced players with access to all splat books are going to put
together stronger PCs than new players looking just at the PHB.

David
 >> Stay informed about: a few more questions (3.5E) 

In article <1154449754.071374.123310 RemoveThis @m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
alordofchaos RemoveThis @yahoo.com wrote:

> Eric P. wrote:
> > In article <1154435875.055654.67070 RemoveThis @75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> > alordofchaos wrote:
> > > No - there was a rule (may have been optional) that if your character
> > > received enough experience to gain 2 levels, you reduced to just below
> > > what was needed for the second level. Given how the
> > > experience/challenge is logically set up, though, this situation is
> > > very unlikely to happen (any encounter that would raise you up two
> > > levels is likely to be fatal - TPK)
> >
> > Less fatal at higher levels. I had a party of four 13th - 15th level PCs
> > defeat a 13th level druid and a 15th level ranger plus their companion
> > creatures as the culmination of a short adventure, and the resulting
> > XP bumped the 13th level PC up two levels. This was in 3.5e rules.
>
> Are you supposed to include companion creatures when awarding XP?
>
> If not, I figure four 13th level characters would receive 2,925 xp each
> from defeating a 13th level character and a 15th level character.
>
> Could someone check my math?

Companion creatures count toward XP awards, but they yielded little.
The PCs were a 13th level and two 15th level characters plus a
companion brown bear. The enemy party included a dire badger
and a skeletal polar bear as companion creatures. Then there
was the story award, which is more than the highest level
opponent but less than a single encounter.

I don't recall if I saved the note paper where I divided up all the
XP for each PC or not. Only the 13th level character ended up
as 15th level, but then she was fairly close to reaching her next
CL before play.

I figure the character is where she needs to be anyway, within
the context of the campaign. There's more to come shortly that
will surely challenge her allies and herself.

- E
 >> Stay informed about: a few more questions (3.5E)