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Marcel Beaudoin

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Since: Jan 06, 2006
Posts: 289



(Msg. 1) Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:35 pm
Post subject: |[4e] 4E Rules Primer
Archived from groups: rec>games>frp>dnd (more info?)

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/news_20080228.zip

79k in size

--
Marcel

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My Conscience

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Since: Feb 28, 2008
Posts: 7



(Msg. 2) Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:35 pm
Post subject: Re: |[4e] 4E Rules Primer [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Marcel Beaudoin wrote:
> http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/news_20080228.zip
>
> 79k in size
>

Transcribed, sort of, for easier commentary:

1. Character roles are more clearly defined.
Everyone who’s played D&D knows that there are roles for
each character – some characters “tank”, some characters
are “artillery”, etc. 4th Edition defines those roles into four
types – controller, defender, leader, and striker. Controllers
(like wizards) deal with large amounts of enemies at once,
favoring offense over defense. Defenders (like fighters and
paladins) are the front-line characters that have great
defensive abilities and good melee offense. Leaders (like
clerics and warlords) are good at aiding other members of
the party by healing, inspiring, or protecting them. Strikers
(like rangers, rogues, and warlocks) deal large amounts of
damage to single targets at one time and quickly move about
the battlefield. Most adventuring parties consist of at least
one character of each of the roles.

2. Powers give you more combat options.
Clerics chant prayers, wizards incant spells, and fighters
attempt exploits. These are all examples of powers – your
suite of combat options. Three power sources – arcane,
divine, and martial – are presented in the Player’s Handbook.
Each character class draws abilities from one of these power
sources: clerics and paladins use divine powers (prayers),
warlocks and wizards use arcane powers (spells), and
fighters, rangers, rogues, and warlords use martial powers
(exploits).
You get a number of powers based on your character’s
level. Powers can be used at-will, once per encounter, or
once per day depending on the power.
TIP: Use your at-will powers instead of using basic
attacks. They’ll frequently do more than just a modest
amount of damage to one enemy.

3. Attacker rolls against a static defense.
In 4th Edition, you have 4 defense values – Armor Class,
Fortitude, Reflex, and Will. The attacker chooses an attack,
rolls 1d20, adds the attack bonus, and calls out the result
against the appropriate defense. The defenses are all static
numbers, just like Armor Class was in 3rd Edition. Attack
actions involve a “to hit” roll against any and all targets, so a
power that targets all enemies within 1 square requires a
separate attack roll against each enemy affected.
TIP: If you make an attack against multiple targets, you
don’t roll damage for each target – just roll that once. It’s best
when you attack multiple targets to roll damage first, and
then roll your attacks.

4. Standard, move, and minor actions.
Each time it’s your turn, you get one standard, one move,
and one minor action. Standard actions are usually attacks,
move actions are usually used to move, and minor actions
are little things like drawing a weapon or opening a door.
You can always exchange a standard action for a move
action or minor action, or a move action for a minor action.
There are also free actions, which take almost no time or
effort, such as dropping a held item or talking. You can take
free actions during your turn or anyone else’s turn, and as
many as you like (within reason).
There’s another category of actions called triggered
actions – these include opportunity actions (like opportunity
attacks) and immediate actions (like a readied action). Your
DM can tell you more about those should you need them.

5. Healing gets an overhaul.
Hit points still measure your ability to stay in the fight, but
healing’s no longer just the burden of one character
anymore. Each character has a certain number of healing
surges. Once during each encounter, you can take a
standard action called a second wind; this gives you a certain
amount of hit points back equal to your healing surge value
and gives you a +2 bonus to all your defenses until the start
of your next turn. You then tick off one of your healing
surges for the day. Some powers (like some cleric prayers)
will also heal you your healing surge value, and you’ll tick off
your healing surges for them as well. When you run out of
healing surges, you’ll want to take an extended rest.
If you’re outside of combat, you can take a short rest and
tick off the healing surges you need to heal up damage.
TIP: If you’ve been knocked down a few hit points and
can’t decide what to do when it’s your turn, taking a second
wind action is a good idea.

6. Short and extended rests.
Resting’s now divided into two groups – short and extended.
A short rest lasts 5 minutes, and is a long enough time for
you to regain your encounter powers and use healing surges
to heal up. An extended rest is akin to “camping” and lasts 6
hours. After an extended rest, you’re fully healed, you have a
full compliment of healing surges, you have your daily
powers back, and you reset your action points to 1.
TIP: It’s good to take an extended rest when some
members in the group are down to about 1 healing surge
remaining, or everyone has used all their daily powers.

7. Attack!
Attacks are divided up into a few different types. Melee attacks
are those you make usually when you’re adjacent to your target.
Ranged attacks can be made at any distance up to the maximum
range of the attack; however, if you take a ranged attack next to
an enemy you provoke an opportunity attack against you. Close
attacks affect an area starting with squares adjacent to you;
these attacks don’t provoke an opportunity attack. Area attacks
usually affect an area at range; these attacks do provoke
opportunity attacks.
Most of the time when you take an attack, you’ll use one of
your powers. However, there are some times when you’ll use a
basic attack – just a regular old swing of the sword or shot from
the bow. These attacks are less powerful than using powers, but
they can get the job done. You’ll use a basic attack when you’re
charging, making opportunity attacks, or when you use certain
powers.

8. Action points give you an extra action.
You begin each adventure with 1 action point, and you can get
another one for every 2 encounters that you complete (called a
milestone). You can spend 1 action point per encounter to take
one extra action on your turn. It can be a standard, move, or
minor action.
When you take an extended rest, your action points reset
back to 1.
TIP: Make sure to spend action points at least once every
other encounter (as often as you earn them), since you can only
spend one per encounter.

9. Movement is quick and easy.
Each character has a speed listed in squares. One 1-inch square
equals one five-foot square in the game world. When you take a
move action, you can move up to the indicated number of
squares. Moving from one square to another, even diagonally,
costs 1 square of speed. Sometimes terrain will slow you down,
costing you more than 1 square of speed – this is called difficult
terrain.
Moving away from an enemy adjacent from you usually
provokes an opportunity attack. However, you can also use a
move action to shift; this lets you move one square without
suffering an opportunity attack from adjacent enemies.
TIP: If you need to get somewhere fast, you can run as a
move action. This gives you +2 speed for your move, but you
grant any attackers combat advantage until the beginning of
your next turn.

10. Saving throws are straightforward.
Sometimes your character will be hit by an ongoing effect, like
taking poison damage or being immobilized. When this
happens you’ll usually get to make a saving throw to remove the
effect at the end of your turn. Saving throws are simple – just
roll 1d20. If you roll a 10 or higher, you’ll end the effect. If you
roll a 9 or lower, the effect will usually continue until you have
to make another saving throw at the end of your next turn.
Some characters have bonuses that can be applied to certain
types of saving throws, and some powers grant modifications to
saving throws as well.

11. Durations are easy to manage.
Most effects that have durations (usually imparting a condition
on the target) last either until the target makes a saving throw to
ward it off, or until the end of the next turn of the attacker that
caused the nasty effect. A few effects have durations that last
through the entire encounter. No more tracking rounds to
determine when your effect ends!

12. Reach (usually) isn’t as threatening.
Reach (possessed by some monsters and weapons) is only
“active” on the attacker’s turn. Otherwise, attackers with reach
function just like those without reach. This is usually most
relevant when determining the area a character or monster
threatens.
TIP: Watch out for the few creatures with threatening
reach – they can threaten more than just squares adjacent to
them.

13. A trio of “c” rules you might want to know.
• Combat Advantage – This gives you a +2 bonus to attack
rolls when you’re flanking, or when the target is under one
of a number of conditions (dazed, surprised, etc.).
• Cover – If an enemy has cover, you get a -2 penalty to
attack rolls against it. Your allies don’t provide cover, but
enemies do. There’s also no penalty for making ranged
attacks into melee.
• Charging – This is a standard action. Move up to your
speed, and make a basic attack. You get a +1 bonus on the
attack roll. You have to move at least 2 squares from your
starting position, and you must charge to the nearest square
from which you can attack your target. You can’t charge if
the nearest square is occupied, but you can charge over
difficult terrain (it just costs you extra movement).

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Malachias Invictus

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Since: Sep 18, 2006
Posts: 459



(Msg. 3) Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:35 pm
Post subject: Re: |[4e] 4E Rules Primer [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"My Conscience" <thatdarnsocknipping.DeleteThis@myheels.invalid> wrote in message
news:CIJxj.18$CD7.2@newsfe11.phx...
> Marcel Beaudoin wrote:
>> http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/news_20080228.zip
>>
>> 79k in size
>>
>
> Transcribed, sort of, for easier commentary:

Thanks!

> 1. Character roles are more clearly defined.

Okay, we knew this.

> 2. Powers give you more combat options.
> Clerics chant prayers, wizards incant spells, and fighters
> attempt exploits.

I dig this. It also opens the door to basically limitless types of mojo,
which is nice.

> 3. Attacker rolls against a static defense.

We knew this too. I really do not like the multiple attack rolls for area
attacks, though. That seems like a time-waster.

> 4. Standard, move, and minor actions.

....as well as triggered and immediate actions. Looks good.

> 5. Healing gets an overhaul.

Now *this* is interesting.

> Hit points still measure your ability to stay in the fight, but
> healing’s no longer just the burden of one character
> anymore. Each character has a certain number of healing
> surges. Once during each encounter, you can take a
> standard action called a second wind; this gives you a certain
> amount of hit points back equal to your healing surge value
> and gives you a +2 bonus to all your defenses until the start
> of your next turn. You then tick off one of your healing
> surges for the day.

I like it. Simple and elegant.

> Some powers (like some cleric prayers)
> will also heal you your healing surge value, and you’ll tick off
> your healing surges for them as well. When you run out of
> healing surges, you’ll want to take an extended rest.

There goes the "unlimited healing" people were preemptively whining about.
This certainly solves the CLW wand problem.

> If you’re outside of combat, you can take a short rest and
> tick off the healing surges you need to heal up damage.

Cool. So, once per encounter unless someone uses a power, and unlimited (up
to the number of uses per day) out of combat. This is very much like Iron
Heroes.

> 6. Short and extended rests.
> Resting’s now divided into two groups – short and extended.

Cool. I like it.

> 7. Attack!

Pretty streamlined.

> 8. Action points give you an extra action.
> You begin each adventure with 1 action point, and you can get
> another one for every 2 encounters that you complete (called a
> milestone). You can spend 1 action point per encounter to take
> one extra action on your turn. It can be a standard, move, or
> minor action.
> When you take an extended rest, your action points reset
> back to 1.
> TIP: Make sure to spend action points at least once every
> other encounter (as often as you earn them), since you can only
> spend one per encounter.

This is pretty neat as well, and ripe for monkeying with.

> 9. Movement is quick and easy.

I like the simplicity, and I especially like the whole "run in combat for +2
move but grant your enemies combat advantage" thing. That is definitely
going to cause some tactical nail biting.

> 10. Saving throws are straightforward.

This is my favorite part.

> Sometimes your character will be hit by an ongoing effect, like
> taking poison damage or being immobilized. When this
> happens you’ll usually get to make a saving throw to remove the
> effect at the end of your turn. Saving throws are simple – just
> roll 1d20. If you roll a 10 or higher, you’ll end the effect. If you
> roll a 9 or lower, the effect will usually continue until you have
> to make another saving throw at the end of your next turn.
> Some characters have bonuses that can be applied to certain
> types of saving throws, and some powers grant modifications to
> saving throws as well.

So basically, they have engineered a flat 55% chance of recovery per round,
modified by mojo on both sides. I think this has some great applications.

> 11. Durations are easy to manage.
> Most effects that have durations (usually imparting a condition
> on the target) last either until the target makes a saving throw to
> ward it off, or until the end of the next turn of the attacker that
> caused the nasty effect. A few effects have durations that last
> through the entire encounter. No more tracking rounds to
> determine when your effect ends!

Yay! That got annoying in higher level games. A while back I started
putting the effects on 3x5 cards and shuffled them in with players in
initiative order. Think of how many trees this will save.

> 12. Reach (usually) isn’t as threatening.
> Reach (possessed by some monsters and weapons) is only
> “active” on the attacker’s turn. Otherwise, attackers with reach
> function just like those without reach. This is usually most
> relevant when determining the area a character or monster
> threatens.
> TIP: Watch out for the few creatures with threatening
> reach – they can threaten more than just squares adjacent to
> them.

Interesting.

> 13. A trio of “c” rules you might want to know.
> • Combat Advantage – This gives you a +2 bonus to attack
> rolls when you’re flanking, or when the target is under one
> of a number of conditions (dazed, surprised, etc.).
> • Cover – If an enemy has cover, you get a -2 penalty to
> attack rolls against it. Your allies don’t provide cover, but
> enemies do. There’s also no penalty for making ranged
> attacks into melee.
> • Charging – This is a standard action. Move up to your
> speed, and make a basic attack. You get a +1 bonus on the
> attack roll. You have to move at least 2 squares from your
> starting position, and you must charge to the nearest square
> from which you can attack your target. You can’t charge if
> the nearest square is occupied, but you can charge over
> difficult terrain (it just costs you extra movement).

Once again, simple and elegant. I find it interesting that charging is
deliberately weaker than normal powers.

I am definitely liking what I am seeing.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
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Henry Lockwood

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Since: May 30, 2007
Posts: 10



(Msg. 4) Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:12 am
Post subject: Re: |[4e] 4E Rules Primer [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

> >> 3. Attacker rolls against a static defense.
>
> > We knew this too.  I really do not like the multiple attack rolls for area
> > attacks, though.  That seems like a time-waster.
>
> like multiple saves (and possibly SR) against a fireball, for example.
>
> oh.
>
> liking all these parts of 4e.

The "multiple attack rolls" thing is basically like the "multiple
saves" from 3.5e, but it puts the rolling with the caster: which, I
suppose, is fair. On the other hand, it means that if it's the PCs
being hit by the area effect spell, the DM has to roll colour coded
dice instead of the players being able to roll one each. Swings and
roundabouts.

This post has actually made me optimistic about 4e, rather than my
previous "guarded".
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drow

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Since: Feb 23, 2005
Posts: 275



(Msg. 5) Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:47 am
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Alien mind control rays made Malachias Invictus <invictusebay.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> write:
>> 3. Attacker rolls against a static defense.
>
> We knew this too. I really do not like the multiple attack rolls for area
> attacks, though. That seems like a time-waster.

like multiple saves (and possibly SR) against a fireball, for example.

oh.

liking all these parts of 4e.

--
.--===-+---===--.
|> |\__|___/\---|= drow.RemoveThis@bin.sh (CARRIER LOST) <http://www.bin.sh/>
|| || ()= | | <| --------------------------------------------------------
|> |/~~|~~~\/---|= The Right of Way Belongs to the Biggest Guns
`--===-+---===--'
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DougL

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Since: May 02, 2007
Posts: 30



(Msg. 6) Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:56 am
Post subject: Re: |[4e] 4E Rules Primer [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Feb 29, 4:12 am, Henry Lockwood <henry.lockw....TakeThisOut@cantab.net> wrote:
> > >> 3. Attacker rolls against a static defense.
>
> > > We knew this too.  I really do not like the multiple attack rolls for area
> > > attacks, though.  That seems like a time-waster.
>
> > like multiple saves (and possibly SR) against a fireball, for example.
>
> > oh.
>
> > liking all these parts of 4e.
>
> The "multiple attack rolls" thing is basically like the "multiple
> saves" from 3.5e, but it puts the rolling with the caster: which, I
> suppose, is fair.  On the other hand, it means that if it's the PCs
> being hit by the area effect spell, the DM has to roll colour coded
> dice instead of the players being able to roll one each.  Swings and
> roundabouts.
>
> This post has actually made me optimistic about 4e, rather than my
> previous "guarded".

Let the players roll it themselves anyway. DM rolls for any NPCs in
the area.

It's just that when they're rolling for the enemy they want to roll
low rather than high.

DougL
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Malachias Invictus

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Since: Sep 18, 2006
Posts: 459



(Msg. 7) Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:09 pm
Post subject: Re: |[4e] 4E Rules Primer [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"drow" <drow.DeleteThis@bin.sh> wrote in message
news:47c78e6b$0$1117$8046368a@newsreader.iphouse.net...
> Alien mind control rays made Malachias Invictus <invictusebay.DeleteThis@yahoo.com>
> write:
>>> 3. Attacker rolls against a static defense.
>>
>> We knew this too. I really do not like the multiple attack rolls for
>> area
>> attacks, though. That seems like a time-waster.
>
> like multiple saves (and possibly SR) against a fireball, for example.

Yeah, like that. Still, I was hoping for some streamlining in that area.

> oh.
>
> liking all these parts of 4e.

Me too. I am just a bit demanding.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
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Blackheart

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Since: Apr 19, 2007
Posts: 149



(Msg. 8) Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 7:44 pm
Post subject: Re: |[4e] 4E Rules Primer [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Mar 2, 7:35 am, tussock <sc....RemoveThis@clear.net.nz> wrote:

>     No doubt they'll model that by making it a Fighter trick, rather than
> something you can just hand to a bunch of peasants at a tiny material
> cost and have it work.

this is the "points of light" era now... the only reason there are any
peasants at all is because PC's will need a meta-game "save point".
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tussock

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Since: Apr 28, 2004
Posts: 1013



(Msg. 9) Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:35 am
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Malachias Invictus wrote:

<snips>

>> 3. Attacker rolls against a static defense.
>
> We knew this too. I really do not like the multiple attack rolls for
> area attacks, though. That seems like a time-waster.

Completely. If they want a random number of opponents affected, we
already have a quick method of generating random numbers. Would it really
hurt that you're more likely to get all of a smaller group?

>> 4. Standard, move, and minor actions.
>
> ...as well as triggered and immediate actions. Looks good.

I like the new way they're describing readied actions there, though
I'll still have to fudge in my mechanically-complex, thematically-simple
readies.

>> 5. Healing gets an overhaul.
>
> Now *this* is interesting.
>
>> Hit points still measure your ability to stay in the fight, but
>> healingÂ’s no longer just the burden of one character anymore. Each
>> character has a certain number of healing surges. Once during each
>> encounter, you can take a standard action called a second wind; this
>> gives you a certain amount of hit points back equal to your healing
>> surge value and gives you a +2 bonus to all your defenses until the
>> start of your next turn. You then tick off one of your healing surges
>> for the day.
>
> I like it. Simple and elegant.

Yep. Effectively a per-encounter HP pool, and a larger per-day HP
pool that feeds into it. Eliminates one of my favoured party types, the
dedicated damage sink with healer buddies, perhaps not a huge loss.

Can retain class flavour by giving Fighters a much higher number of
heals than Wizards, so the first can take a lot of damage all the time,
while the latter try and avoid it at all costs, without having such a
large gap in per-encounter totals. Clever, really.

>> Some powers (like some cleric prayers) will also heal you your healing
>> surge value, and youÂ’ll tick off your healing surges for them as well.
>> When you run out of healing surges, youÂ’ll want to take an extended
>> rest.
>
> There goes the "unlimited healing" people were preemptively whining
> about. This certainly solves the CLW wand problem.

Casters bumping per-day HP into per-encounter HP with spells. Allows
tougher fights each time, but no more toughness each day. Interesting
dynamics no doubt.

>> If youÂ’re outside of combat, you can take a short rest and tick off the
>> healing surges you need to heal up damage.
>
> Cool. So, once per encounter unless someone uses a power, and unlimited
> (up to the number of uses per day) out of combat. This is very much
> like Iron Heroes.

Needs backported to every DnD edition ever. Could add in a longer-
term HP limit too, for the number of times you can regain all your daily
HP each month or each year. Force some downtime.


>> 8. Action points give you an extra action.

> This is pretty neat as well, and ripe for monkeying with.

Ewwwwww. That is so disgustingly meta-game. Just make "extra action"
a per encounter power and be done with it. Let the bad guys use it to, a
way of doing one "full attack" per battle.
As always, two spells per round will be b0rken.

>> 9. Movement is quick and easy.
>
> I like the simplicity, and I especially like the whole "run in combat
> for +2 move but grant your enemies combat advantage" thing. That is
> definitely going to cause some tactical nail biting.

+2? Over 6 base? Move 30', double move 60', full run 80'. It's like
heavy armour for everyone, free.

>> 10. Saving throws are straightforward.
>
> This is my favorite part.

The SWS method kicks it's ass. If you get a condition, you can take
three swift actions to throw it off whenever you like. A little reduced
actions for slowed and held and you're there.

> So basically, they [...]

Changed duration tracking on 5 mass effects to 5 dice rolls per
affected unit per round. Will the fun never stop?

>> 11. Durations are easy to manage.
>
> Yay! That got annoying in higher level games.

I eventually changed everything to a fixed set of standard durations
(all short durations 6 rounds, and so on). From there, it's easy enough
to just pace the fights and the game so everything times out together (or
close enough to it to forgive).

>> 12. Reach
>
> Interesting.

Terrible. Reach, though far too granular, was the best modeling of
the longspear available in RPGs. Try to close past it, he gets a hit,
unless you tumble in. It's *good* as is.
No doubt they'll model that by making it a Fighter trick, rather than
something you can just hand to a bunch of peasants at a tiny material
cost and have it work.

--
tussock

I'm like a box of chocolates; you never know what you're gunna get.
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Henry Lockwood

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Since: May 30, 2007
Posts: 10



(Msg. 10) Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:07 am
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On 3 Mar, 03:44, Blackheart <blackheart666_2....RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Mar 2, 7:35 am, tussock <sc....RemoveThis@clear.net.nz> wrote:
>
> >     No doubt they'll model that by making it a Fighter trick, rather than
> > something you can just hand to a bunch of peasants at a tiny material
> > cost and have it work.
>
> this is the "points of light" era now... the only reason there are any
> peasants at all is because PC's will need a meta-game "save point".

Surely the "points of light" makes it all the more important that the
peasantry can defend themselves? If there's marauding monsters out
there to provide a consistent and credible threat/game experience for
adventurers, what's going to stop them marauding through the villages?
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tussock

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Since: Apr 28, 2004
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:48 am
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Blackheart wrote:
> tussock wrote:
>
>>     No doubt they'll model that by making it a Fighter trick, rather
>> than something you can just hand to a bunch of peasants at a tiny
>> material cost and have it work.
>
> this is the "points of light" era now... the only reason there are any
> peasants at all is because PC's will need a meta-game "save point".

It's not nice to scare people, you know.


Not that such nonsense will see the light of day in anything I run.

--
tussock
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Del Rio

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Since: Sep 26, 2006
Posts: 413



(Msg. 12) Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:15 pm
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In article <47ca9f24.RemoveThis@clear.net.nz>, tussock <scrub.RemoveThis@clear.net.nz> wrote:
>
> Terrible. Reach, though far too granular, was the best modeling of
>the longspear available in RPGs. Try to close past it, he gets a hit,
>unless you tumble in. It's *good* as is.
> No doubt they'll model that by making it a Fighter trick, rather than
>something you can just hand to a bunch of peasants at a tiny material
>cost and have it work.

Which sounds about right. Military history says that 99% of
the time, peasant militia was totally useless. That's not to
say that massed spears/pikes/polearms couldn't accomplish some
impressive things, but only in the hands of professional
soldiers, i.e. leveled fighters.

--
"I know I promised, Lord, never again. But I also know
that YOU know what a weak-willed person I am."
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tussock

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(Msg. 13) Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:45 pm
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Del Rio wrote:
> tussock wrote:
>>
>> Terrible. Reach, though far too granular, was the best modeling of
>> the longspear available in RPGs. Try to close past it, he gets a hit,
>> unless you tumble in. It's *good* as is.
>> No doubt they'll model that by making it a Fighter trick, rather
>> than something you can just hand to a bunch of peasants at a tiny
>> material cost and have it work.
>
> Which sounds about right. Military history says that 99% of the time,
> peasant militia was totally useless.

You must be reading rather different history books to me.

> That's not to say that massed spears/pikes/polearms couldn't accomplish
> some impressive things, but only in the hands of professional soldiers,
> i.e. leveled fighters.

You might want to reconsider how rare "professional soldiers" were in
the ages of the long spear's dominance, and perhaps how well that fits
what a Fighter classed person is in DnD.

--
tussock

I'm like a box of chocolates; you never know what you're gunna get.
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Del Rio

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Posts: 413



(Msg. 14) Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:45 pm
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In article <47d4d920.RemoveThis@clear.net.nz>, tussock <scrub.RemoveThis@clear.net.nz> wrote:
>Del Rio wrote:
>> tussock wrote:
>>>
>>> Terrible. Reach, though far too granular, was the best modeling of
>>> the longspear available in RPGs. Try to close past it, he gets a hit,
>>> unless you tumble in. It's *good* as is.
>>> No doubt they'll model that by making it a Fighter trick, rather
>>> than something you can just hand to a bunch of peasants at a tiny
>>> material cost and have it work.
>>
>> Which sounds about right. Military history says that 99% of the time,
>> peasant militia was totally useless.
>
> You must be reading rather different history books to me.

Seems likely, dunnit? I've appended a list of the sources that
I read while prepping for my current campaign. I didn't make
it all the way through "Standards of Living", and the last
6 on the list are still on my shelf waiting for me to get
to them.

>> That's not to say that massed spears/pikes/polearms couldn't accomplish
>> some impressive things, but only in the hands of professional soldiers,
>> i.e. leveled fighters.
>
> You might want to reconsider how rare "professional soldiers" were in
>the ages of the long spear's dominance, and perhaps how well that fits
>what a Fighter classed person is in DnD.

I'm talking about battles using medieval arms and tactics which
are closest to the pseudo high-to-late-medieval tech level in
D&D. Age of the Black Prince and such. Never read of any
battle in which peasant militia prevailed except a few times
when they stormed some unprepared or exceedingly foolish/
overconfident opponents, and certainly I haven't read any
account of the longspear being a dominant weapon in that era.
Massed pikes were pretty popular with Flemish mercenaries, who
knew how to use them, and that kind of mercenary troop got more
and more common the longer the Hundred Year's War ground on,
especially since they were almost uniquely qualified to protect
archers from cavalry, and archers' stock kept rising during
that whole period.

Life in a Medieval Castle
by Joseph Gies, Frances Gies

Life in a Medieval Village
by Frances Gies

Life in a Medieval City
by Joseph Gies, Frances Gies

The aforementioned 3 have been collected into a single volume:
Daily Life in Medieval Times: A Vivid, Detailed Account of Birth, Marriage and Death; Food, Clothing and Housing; Love and Labor in the Middle Ages
by Frances Gies, Joseph Gies

Life On A Mediaeval Barony: A Picture Of A Typical Feudal Community In The Thirteenth Century
by William Stearns Davis

The Knight in History
by Frances Gies

A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous 14th Century
by Barbara W. Tuchman

The Medieval Castle
by Philip Warner

Medieval Warfare: England's Army in the Wars of the Middle Ages
by Peter Reid

Medieval People
by Eileen Power

Standards of Living in the Later Middle Ages: Social Change in England c. 1200-1520
by Christopher Dyer

The Medieval Fortress: Castles, Forts and Walled Cities of the Middle Ages
by H. W. Kaufmann, et al

Life in Medieval Times
by Marjorie Rowling

Everyday Life of Medieval Travellers
by Marjorie Rowling

Women in the Middle Ages
by Joseph Gies, Frances Gies

Marriage and the Family in the Middle Ages
by Frances Gies, Joseph Gies

Cathedral, Forge and Waterwheel: Technology and Invention in the Middle Ages
by Joseph Gies, Frances Gies

Lyrics of the Middle Ages : An Anthology
by James Wilhelm

The Great Warbow
by Matthew Strickland and Robert Hardy (yes *that* Robert Hardy)

Barbarians, Marauders and Infidels
by Antonio Santosuosso

Medieval Naval Warfare, 1000 - 1500
by Susan Rose

--
"I know I promised, Lord, never again. But I also know
that YOU know what a weak-willed person I am."
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Hadsil

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Since: Apr 17, 2007
Posts: 45



(Msg. 15) Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:10 pm
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On Mar 14, 11:14 pm, tussock <sc... RemoveThis @clear.net.nz> wrote:

>
>     Heh, DnD's all over the show. Some of the armours and weapons are 6th
> century, others 16th century, amoungst 13th century castles and towns and
> 8th century raiders.
>
>     In the 24th and half century Duck Dodgers will no doubt play RPGs
> where stealth bombers face down pike and arquebus squares, landsknechte
> rushing entrenched machineguns.
>> --
>     tussock


Playing Civilization IV my tanks still fight the occasional
longbowman.

Smile

Gerald Katz
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