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Jasin Zujovic

External


Since: Aug 21, 2004
Posts: 1923



(Msg. 1) Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:30 am
Post subject: |[4E] The rogue!
Archived from groups: rec>games>frp>dnd (more info?)

http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/20080222a

This month, we're granting everyone a surprise round before the actual
launch of the 4th Edition of Dungeons & Dragons. During this surprise
round, a bunch of my staff is heading to the D&D Experience in Virginia
to play 4E with people, show off the latest art, unveil the rest of the
year's slate of products, and provide a new look at the elements of D&D
Insider. It's an exciting time!

Not only are we in the midst of seeing finished galleys of the core
books here in the office, but we're about to enter the final stage
before the launch of 4E. To me, this last sprint kicks off with D&D
Experience. At the show, fans and players get to mingle with Chris
Perkins, Andy Collins, Rob Heinsoo, James Wyatt, Mike Mearls, and Chris
Youngs from my R&D team, as well as with The Rouse and Sarah Girard from
the Brand Team, Didier Monin, and the great folks in Organized Play. It
should be a wonderful event.

At the event, everyone will get to see the new game system in action.
Games will be played, secrets will be revealed, and amazing D&D Insider
features will take center stage. I'm sure the various tidbits that get
revealed will be reported here and elsewhere as they happen, but I want
to kick off the festivities with my own surprise round.

What better way to get everyone excited and talking than to show off one
of the class write-ups from the new Player's Handbook? And what class
more typifies the surprise round than the rogue? What follows is the
opening spread for the rogue class, as well as a few of the powers
available to rogue characters.

You're going to see something called "builds" in the information that
follows. Builds present themes that you can use to guide you as you
select powers and other abilities. You can follow the advice of a build,
or you can ignore it. It's not a constraint, but instead provides
information to help you make informed choices as you create your
character. Using a class build isn't required; builds exist to help
guide your decisions through the process of character creation and each
time you level up.

If you're going to attend D&D Experience, say hello to the gang for me.
In the meantime, enjoy this surprise peek at the rogue. Hurry, though.
You know how sneaky the rogue can be.
Rogue

"You look surprised to see me. If you'd been paying attention, you might
still be alive."

CLASS TRAITS

Role: Striker. You dart in to attack, do massive damage, and then
retreat to safety. You do best when teamed with a defender to flank enemies.
Power Source: Martial. Your talents depend on extensive training
and constant practice, innate skill, and natural coordination.
Key Abilities: Dexterity, Strength, Charisma

Armor Training: Leather
Weapon Proficiencies: Dagger, hand crossbow, shuriken, sling, short
sword
Bonus to Defense: +2 Reflex

Hit Points at 1st Level: 12 + Constitution score
Hit Points per Level Gained: 5
Healing Surges: 6 + Constitution modifier

Trained Skills: Stealth and Thievery plus four others. From the
class skills list below, choose four more trained skills at 1st level.
Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dexterity), Athletics (Str), Bluff (Cha),
Dungeoneering (Wis), Insight (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Perception (Wis),
Stealth (Dexterity), Streetwise (Cha), Thievery (Dexterity)

Build Options: Brawny rogue, trickster rogue
Class Features: First Strike, Rogue Tactics, Rogue Weapon Talent,
Sneak Attack

Rogues are cunning and elusive adversaries. Rogues slip into and out of
shadows on a whim, pass anywhere across the field of battle without fear
of reprisal, and appear suddenly only to drive home a lethal blade.

As a rogue, you might face others' preconceptions regarding your
motivations, but your nature is your own to mold. You could be an agent
fresh from the deposed king's shattered intelligence network, an accused
criminal on the lam seeking to clear your name, a wiry performer whose
goals transcend the theatrical stage, a kid trying to turn around your
hard-luck story, or a daredevil thrill-seeker who can't get enough of
the adrenaline rush of conflict. Or perhaps you are merely in it for the
gold, after all.

With a blade up your sleeve and a concealing cloak across your
shoulders, you stride forth, eyes alight with anticipation. What worldly
wonders and rewards are yours for the taking?

ROGUE OVERVIEW

Characteristics: Combat advantage provides the full benefit of your
powers, and a combination of skills and powers helps you gain and keep
that advantage over your foes. You are a master of skills, from Stealth
and Thievery to Bluff and Acrobatics.

Religion: Rogues prefer deities of the night, luck, freedom, and
adventure, such as Sehanine and Avandra. Evil and chaotic evil rogues
often favor Lolth or Zehir.

Races: Those with a love for secrets exchanged in shadows and change for
its own sake make ideal rogues, including elves, tieflings, and halflings.
Creating a Rogue

The trickster rogue and the brawny rogue are the two rogue builds, one
relying on bluffs and feints, the other on brute strength. Dexterity,
Charisma, and Strength are the rogue's most important ability scores.

Brawny Rogue
You like powers that deal plenty of damage, aided by your Strength, and
also stun, immobilize, knock down, or push your foes. Your attacks use
Dexterity, so keep that your highest ability score. Strength should be a
close second—it increases your damage directly, and it can determine
other effects of your attacks. Charisma is a good third ability score,
particularly if you want to dabble in powers from the other rogue build.
Select the brutal scoundrel rogue tactic, and look for powers that pack
a lot of damage into every punch.

Suggested Feat: Weapon Focus (Human feat: Toughness)
Suggested Skills: Athletics, Dungeoneering, Intimidate, Stealth,
Streetwise, Thievery
Suggested At-Will Powers: Piercing Strike, Riposte Strike
Suggested Encounter Power: Torturous Strike
Suggested Daily Power: Easy Target

Trickster Rogue
You like powers that deceive and misdirect your foes. You dart in and
out of the fray in combat, dodging your enemies' attacks or redirecting
them to other foes. Most of your attack powers rely on Dexterity, so
that should be your best ability score. Charisma is important for a few
attacks, for Charisma-based skills you sometimes use in place of
attacks, and for other effects that depend on successful attacks, so
make Charisma your second-best score. Strength is useful if you want to
choose powers intended for the other rogue build. Select the artful
dodger rogue tactic. Look for powers that take advantage of your high
Charisma score, as well as those that add to your trickster nature.

Suggested Feat: Backstabber (Human feat: Human Perseverance)
Suggested Skills: Acrobatics, Bluff, Insight, Perception, Stealth,
Thievery
Suggested At-Will Powers: Deft Strike, Sly Flourish
Suggested Encounter Power: Positioning Strike
Suggested Daily Power: Trick Strike

Rogue Class Features

All rogues share these class features.

First Strike
At the start of an encounter, you have combat advantage against any
creatures that have not yet acted in that encounter.

Rogue Tactics
Rogues operate in a variety of ways. Some rogues use their natural charm
and cunning trickery to deceive foes. Others rely on brute strength to
overcome their enemies.

Choose one of the following options.

Artful Dodger: You gain a bonus to AC equal to your Charisma
modifier against opportunity attacks.
Brutal Scoundrel: You gain a bonus to Sneak Attack damage equal to
your Strength modifier.

The choice you make also provides bonuses to certain rogue powers.
Individual powers detail the effects (if any) your Rogue Tactics
selection has on them.

Rogue Weapon Talent
When you wield a shuriken, your weapon damage die increases by one size.
When you wield a dagger, you gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls.

Sneak Attack
Once per round, when you have combat advantage against an enemy and are
using a light blade, a crossbow, or a sling, your attacks against that
enemy deal extra damage. As you advance in level, your extra damage
increases.
Level Sneak Attack Damage
1st–10th +2d6
11th–20th +3d6
21st–30th +5d6
Rogue Powers

Your powers are daring exploits that draw on your personal cunning,
agility, and expertise. Some powers reward a high Charisma and are well
suited for the trickster rogue, and others reward a high Strength and
appeal to the brawny rogue, but you are free to choose any power you like.


Deft Strike
Rogue Attack 1
A final lunge brings you into an advantageous position.

At-Will ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee or Ranged weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a crossbow, a light blade, or a sling.
Target: One creature
Special: You can move 2 squares before the attack.
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC

Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.
Increase damage to 2[W] + Dexterity modifier at 21st level.


Piercing Strike
Rogue Attack 1
A needle-sharp point slips past armor and into tender flesh.

At-Will ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. Reflex

Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.
Increase damage to 2[W] + Dexterity modifier at 21st level.


Positioning Strike
Rogue Attack 1
A false stumble and a shove place the enemy exactly where you want him.

Encounter ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. Will

Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage, and you slide the target 1 square.
Artful Dodger: You slide the target a number of squares equal to your
Charisma modifier.


Torturous Strike
Rogue Attack 1
If you twist the blade in the wound just so, you can make your enemy
howl in pain.

Encounter ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC

Hit: 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.
Brutal Scoundrel: You gain a bonus to the damage roll equal to your
Strength modifier.


Tumble
Rogue Utility 2
You tumble out of harm's way, dodging the opportunistic attacks of your
enemies.

Encounter ✦ Martial
Move Action
Personal
Prerequisite: You must be trained in Acrobatics.

Effect: You can shift a number of squares equal to one-half your speed.


Crimson Edge
Rogue Attack 9
You deal your enemy a vicious wound that continues to bleed, and like a
shark, you circle in for the kill.

Daily ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. Fortitude

Hit: 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage, and the target takes ongoing
damage equal to 5 + your Strength modifier and grants combat advantage
to you (save ends both).
Miss: Half damage, and no ongoing damage.


About the Author

Bill Slavicsek is the R&D Director for Roleplaying Games, Miniatures,
and Book Publishing at Wizards of the Coast. All of the game designers,
developers, editors, book editors, and D&D Insider content managers
working on Dungeons & Dragons, Star Wars, and the WotC Publishing Group
report into Bill's R&D team.

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Lorenz.Lang

External


Since: Feb 26, 2005
Posts: 503



(Msg. 2) Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:30 am
Post subject: Re: |[4E] The rogue! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Feb 23, 11:30 am, Jasin Zujovic <jzujo....RemoveThis@inet.hr> wrote:
> http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/20080222a
<snip>
> Rogue
>
> "You look surprised to see me. If you’d been paying attention, you might
> still be alive."

Speak with Dead is a Rogue power? Smile

> CLASS TRAITS
>
> Role: Striker. You dart in to attack, do massive damage, and then
> retreat to safety. You do best when teamed with a defender to flank enemies.
> Power Source: Martial. Your talents depend on extensive training
> and constant practice, innate skill, and natural coordination.
> Key Abilities: Dexterity, Strength, Charisma
>
> Armor Training: Leather
> Weapon Proficiencies: Dagger, hand crossbow, shuriken, sling, short
> sword

Few weapons and shuriken are oriental. What about darts?

> Bonus to Defense: +2 Reflex
>
> Hit Points at 1st Level: 12 + Constitution score
> Hit Points per Level Gained: 5

I really prefer random HP per level. :-/

> Healing Surges: 6 + Constitution modifier
>
> Trained Skills: Stealth and Thievery plus four others.

6 skills as apposed to 8 + Int in 3.5ed? So few?
A Ftr gets 1 in 4ed?

Skills are no longer tied to Int??

> From the
> class skills list below, choose four more trained skills at 1st level.
> Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dexterity), Athletics (Str), Bluff (Cha),
> Dungeoneering (Wis), Insight (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Perception (Wis),
> Stealth (Dexterity), Streetwise (Cha), Thievery (Dexterity)

Bluff remains a solo skill? No combination with Sense Motive
(Insight?),
Diplomacy, and/or Intimidate?

> Build Options: Brawny rogue, trickster rogue

Just fluff?

> Class Features: First Strike, Rogue Tactics, Rogue Weapon Talent,
> Sneak Attack

Depends on when you get what.

<snip>
> With a blade up your sleeve and a concealing cloak across your
> shoulders, you stride forth, eyes alight with anticipation. What worldly
> wonders and rewards are yours for the taking?

Pillory, jail and finally the gallows. Muahahha Smile

> ROGUE OVERVIEW
>
> Characteristics: Combat advantage provides the full benefit of your
> powers, and a combination of skills and powers helps you gain and keep
> that advantage over your foes.

Okay: combat advantage is 4ed-speak for opponent is flat-footed.

> You are a master of skills, from Stealth
> and Thievery to Bluff and Acrobatics.

Still the skill-monkey, but with fewer skills?

> Religion: Rogues prefer deities of the night, luck, freedom, and
> adventure, such as Sehanine and Avandra. Evil and chaotic evil rogues
> often favor Lolth or Zehir.

Or not IMC.

> Races: Those with a love for secrets exchanged in shadows and change for
> its own sake make ideal rogues, including elves, tieflings, and halflings.

Do they get a racial Dex bonus or why?

<snip>
> Rogue Class Features
>
> All rogues share these class features.
>
> First Strike
> At the start of an encounter, you have combat advantage against any
> creatures that have not yet acted in that encounter.

Others don't?

> Rogue Tactics
> Rogues operate in a variety of ways. Some rogues use their natural charm
> and cunning trickery to deceive foes. Others rely on brute strength to
> overcome their enemies.
>
> Choose one of the following options.
>
> Artful Dodger: You gain a bonus to AC equal to your Charisma
> modifier against opportunity attacks.

For the tricky rogue???

> Brutal Scoundrel: You gain a bonus to Sneak Attack damage equal to
> your Strength modifier.

For the brutal rogue???

Why don't they say so???

> The choice you make also provides bonuses to certain rogue powers.
> Individual powers detail the effects (if any) your Rogue Tactics
> selection has on them.
>
> Rogue Weapon Talent
> When you wield a shuriken, your weapon damage die increases by one size.
> When you wield a dagger, you gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls.

I don't have and don't want shuriken IMC.
Why do they try to force an oriental weapon into standard DnD?

> Sneak Attack
> Once per round, when you have combat advantage against an enemy and are
> using a light blade, a crossbow, or a sling, your attacks against that
> enemy deal extra damage. As you advance in level, your extra damage
> increases.
> Level Sneak Attack Damage
> 1st–10th +2d6
> 11th–20th +3d6
> 21st–30th +5d6

Hmmm...

> Rogue Powers
>
> Your powers are daring exploits that draw on your personal cunning,
> agility, and expertise. Some powers reward a high Charisma and are well
> suited for the trickster rogue, and others reward a high Strength and
> appeal to the brawny rogue, but you are free to choose any power you like.
>
> Deft Strike
> Rogue Attack 1
> A final lunge brings you into an advantageous position.
>
> At-Will ✦ Martial, Weapon
> Standard Action
> Melee or Ranged weapon
> Requirement: You must be wielding a crossbow, a light blade, or a sling.
> Target: One creature
> Special: You can move 2 squares before the attack.
> Attack: Dexterity vs. AC
>
> Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.
> Increase damage to 2[W] + Dexterity modifier at 21st level.

Big move and attack AC. Okay...

> Piercing Strike
> Rogue Attack 1
> A needle-sharp point slips past armor and into tender flesh.
>
> At-Will ✦ Martial, Weapon
> Standard Action
> Melee weapon
> Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade.
> Target: One creature
> Attack: Dexterity vs. Reflex
>
> Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.
> Increase damage to 2[W] + Dexterity modifier at 21st level.

...or normal move (1 square?) and attack vs. Reflex with a light
blade.
Interesting options.

> Positioning Strike
> Rogue Attack 1
> A false stumble and a shove place the enemy exactly where you want him.
>
> Encounter ✦ Martial, Weapon
> Standard Action
> Melee weapon
> Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade.
> Target: One creature

...even if it's Godzilla? I can't believe creature size isn't
important
for *shoving* it around.

> Attack: Dexterity vs. Will
>
> Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage, and you slide the target 1 square.
> Artful Dodger: You slide the target a number of squares equal to your
> Charisma modifier.

Godzilla is impressed by my charismatic shove... argh.

> Torturous Strike
> Rogue Attack 1
> If you twist the blade in the wound just so, you can make your enemy
> howl in pain.
>
> Encounter ✦ Martial, Weapon
> Standard Action
> Melee weapon
> Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade.
> Target: One creature
> Attack: Dexterity vs. AC
>
> Hit: 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.
> Brutal Scoundrel: You gain a bonus to the damage roll equal to your
> Strength modifier.

...but it's not causing pain, it's doing damage???

> Tumble
> Rogue Utility 2
> You tumble out of harm’s way, dodging the opportunistic attacks of your
> enemies.
>
> Encounter ✦ Martial
> Move Action
> Personal
> Prerequisite: You must be trained in Acrobatics.
>
> Effect: You can shift a number of squares equal to one-half your speed.

Not at-will, but per encounter. That's good IMO.

> Crimson Edge
> Rogue Attack 9
> You deal your enemy a vicious wound that continues to bleed, and like a
> shark, you circle in for the kill.
>
> Daily ✦ Martial, Weapon
> Standard Action
> Melee weapon
> Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade.
> Target: One creature
> Attack: Dexterity vs. Fortitude
>
> Hit: 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage, and the target takes ongoing
> damage equal to 5 + your Strength modifier and grants combat advantage
> to you (save ends both).
> Miss: Half damage, and no ongoing damage.

That's (finally) a nice power.

I think I will never play 4ed by the books.
But I didn't with 3.* ed either. Smile

LL

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Tetsubo

External


Since: Jun 06, 2004
Posts: 460



(Msg. 3) Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:30 am
Post subject: Re: |[4E] The rogue! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Lorenz.Lang RemoveThis @gmx.de wrote:

> On Feb 23, 11:30 am, Jasin Zujovic <jzujo... RemoveThis @inet.hr> wrote:
>
>>http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/20080222a
>
> <snip>
>
>>Rogue
>>
>>"You look surprised to see me. If you'd been paying attention, you might
>>still be alive."
>
>
> Speak with Dead is a Rogue power? Smile
>
>
>>CLASS TRAITS
>>
>> Role: Striker. You dart in to attack, do massive damage, and then
>>retreat to safety. You do best when teamed with a defender to flank enemies.
>> Power Source: Martial. Your talents depend on extensive training
>>and constant practice, innate skill, and natural coordination.
>> Key Abilities: Dexterity, Strength, Charisma
>>
>> Armor Training: Leather
>> Weapon Proficiencies: Dagger, hand crossbow, shuriken, sling, short
>>sword
>
>
> Few weapons and shuriken are oriental. What about darts?
>
>
>> Bonus to Defense: +2 Reflex
>>
>> Hit Points at 1st Level: 12 + Constitution score
>> Hit Points per Level Gained: 5
>
>
> I really prefer random HP per level. :-/
>
>
>> Healing Surges: 6 + Constitution modifier
>>
>> Trained Skills: Stealth and Thievery plus four others.
>
>
> 6 skills as apposed to 8 + Int in 3.5ed? So few?
> A Ftr gets 1 in 4ed?
>
> Skills are no longer tied to Int??
>
>
>>From the
>>class skills list below, choose four more trained skills at 1st level.
>> Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dexterity), Athletics (Str), Bluff (Cha),
>>Dungeoneering (Wis), Insight (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Perception (Wis),
>>Stealth (Dexterity), Streetwise (Cha), Thievery (Dexterity)
>
>
> Bluff remains a solo skill? No combination with Sense Motive
> (Insight?),
> Diplomacy, and/or Intimidate?
>
>
>> Build Options: Brawny rogue, trickster rogue
>
>
> Just fluff?
>
>
>> Class Features: First Strike, Rogue Tactics, Rogue Weapon Talent,
>>Sneak Attack
>
>
> Depends on when you get what.
>
> <snip>
>
>>With a blade up your sleeve and a concealing cloak across your
>>shoulders, you stride forth, eyes alight with anticipation. What worldly
>>wonders and rewards are yours for the taking?
>
>
> Pillory, jail and finally the gallows. Muahahha Smile
>
>
>>ROGUE OVERVIEW
>>
>>Characteristics: Combat advantage provides the full benefit of your
>>powers, and a combination of skills and powers helps you gain and keep
>>that advantage over your foes.
>
>
> Okay: combat advantage is 4ed-speak for opponent is flat-footed.
>
>
>>You are a master of skills, from Stealth
>>and Thievery to Bluff and Acrobatics.
>
>
> Still the skill-monkey, but with fewer skills?
>
>
>>Religion: Rogues prefer deities of the night, luck, freedom, and
>>adventure, such as Sehanine and Avandra. Evil and chaotic evil rogues
>>often favor Lolth or Zehir.
>
>
> Or not IMC.
>
>
>>Races: Those with a love for secrets exchanged in shadows and change for
>>its own sake make ideal rogues, including elves, tieflings, and halflings.
>
>
> Do they get a racial Dex bonus or why?
>
> <snip>
>
>>Rogue Class Features
>>
>>All rogues share these class features.
>>
>>First Strike
>>At the start of an encounter, you have combat advantage against any
>>creatures that have not yet acted in that encounter.
>
>
> Others don't?
>
>
>>Rogue Tactics
>>Rogues operate in a variety of ways. Some rogues use their natural charm
>>and cunning trickery to deceive foes. Others rely on brute strength to
>>overcome their enemies.
>>
>>Choose one of the following options.
>>
>> Artful Dodger: You gain a bonus to AC equal to your Charisma
>>modifier against opportunity attacks.
>
>
> For the tricky rogue???
>
>
>> Brutal Scoundrel: You gain a bonus to Sneak Attack damage equal to
>>your Strength modifier.
>
>
> For the brutal rogue???
>
> Why don't they say so???
>
>
>>The choice you make also provides bonuses to certain rogue powers.
>>Individual powers detail the effects (if any) your Rogue Tactics
>>selection has on them.
>>
>>Rogue Weapon Talent
>>When you wield a shuriken, your weapon damage die increases by one size.
>>When you wield a dagger, you gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls.
>
>
> I don't have and don't want shuriken IMC.
> Why do they try to force an oriental weapon into standard DnD?

I do weapon sketches as a hobby, I have a series of them I call
"throwing steels". I coined it as a generic term for shuriken-like
projectiles. You could just think of shurikens as small, sharp bits of
metal you chuck at people you don't like.




--
Tetsubo
--------------------------------------
"The apparent lesson of the Inquisition is that insistence on
uniformity of belief is fatal to intellectual, moral and spiritual health."
-The Uses Of The Past-, Herbert J. Muller

BLUP
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Lorenz.Lang

External


Since: Feb 26, 2005
Posts: 503



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:30 am
Post subject: Re: |[4E] The rogue! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Feb 23, 2:00 pm, "Mark Blunden"
<markATmarkdbDOTplusDOT... RemoveThis @addresss.invalid> wrote:
> <Lorenz.L... RemoveThis @gmx.de> wrote in message
>
> news:89fb66d1-2e52-40f8-90e8-ba95e783a776@u69g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 23, 11:30 am, Jasin Zujovic <jzujo... RemoveThis @inet.hr> wrote:
>
> >http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/20080222a
> ><snip>
>
> >> Trained Skills: Stealth and Thievery plus four others.
>
> >6 skills as apposed to 8 + Int in 3.5ed? So few?
> >A Ftr gets 1 in 4ed?
>
> Bear in mind that the skill list has been consolidated. 6 skills in 4e
> probably gives you more actual abilities than 10 skills would in 3.5e.

But it (severly) reduces the player's choices. If the Ftr's player
can
only pick one skill (package) that wouldn't be much. I hope the
packaging isn't overdone in 4ed - and not only concerning skills.

LL
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Tetsubo

External


Since: Jun 06, 2004
Posts: 460



(Msg. 5) Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:30 am
Post subject: Re: |[4E] The rogue! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Lorenz.Lang.RemoveThis@gmx.de wrote:

> On Feb 23, 2:00 pm, "Mark Blunden"
> <markATmarkdbDOTplusDOT....RemoveThis@addresss.invalid> wrote:
>
>><Lorenz.L....RemoveThis@gmx.de> wrote in message
>>
>>news:89fb66d1-2e52-40f8-90e8-ba95e783a776@u69g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>On Feb 23, 11:30 am, Jasin Zujovic <jzujo....RemoveThis@inet.hr> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/20080222a
>>><snip>
>>
>>>> Trained Skills: Stealth and Thievery plus four others.
>>
>>>6 skills as apposed to 8 + Int in 3.5ed? So few?
>>>A Ftr gets 1 in 4ed?
>>
>>Bear in mind that the skill list has been consolidated. 6 skills in 4e
>>probably gives you more actual abilities than 10 skills would in 3.5e.
>
>
> But it (severly) reduces the player's choices. If the Ftr's player
> can
> only pick one skill (package) that wouldn't be much. I hope the
> packaging isn't overdone in 4ed - and not only concerning skills.
>
> LL

Look at Star Wars SAGA. 4E is essentially Fantasy SAGA.

--
Tetsubo
--------------------------------------
"The apparent lesson of the Inquisition is that insistence on
uniformity of belief is fatal to intellectual, moral and spiritual health."
-The Uses Of The Past-, Herbert J. Muller

BLUP
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Mark Blunden

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Since: Aug 30, 2007
Posts: 53



(Msg. 6) Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:00 pm
Post subject: Re: |[4E] The rogue! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

<Lorenz.Lang.DeleteThis@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:89fb66d1-2e52-40f8-90e8-ba95e783a776@u69g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 23, 11:30 am, Jasin Zujovic <jzujo....DeleteThis@inet.hr> wrote:
> http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/20080222a
><snip>
>
>> Trained Skills: Stealth and Thievery plus four others.
>
>6 skills as apposed to 8 + Int in 3.5ed? So few?
>A Ftr gets 1 in 4ed?

Bear in mind that the skill list has been consolidated. 6 skills in 4e
probably gives you more actual abilities than 10 skills would in 3.5e.

--
Mark.
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Mark Blunden

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Since: Aug 30, 2007
Posts: 53



(Msg. 7) Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:25 pm
Post subject: Re: |[4E] The rogue! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

<Lorenz.Lang.RemoveThis@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:460aa4fe-f6ec-4352-a422-666242254568@z70g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 23, 2:00 pm, "Mark Blunden"
> <markATmarkdbDOTplusDOT....RemoveThis@addresss.invalid> wrote:
>> <Lorenz.L....RemoveThis@gmx.de> wrote in message
>>
>> news:89fb66d1-2e52-40f8-90e8-ba95e783a776@u69g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>> On Feb 23, 11:30 am, Jasin Zujovic <jzujo....RemoveThis@inet.hr> wrote:
>>
>> >http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/20080222a
>> ><snip>
>>
>> >> Trained Skills: Stealth and Thievery plus four others.
>>
>> >6 skills as apposed to 8 + Int in 3.5ed? So few?
>> >A Ftr gets 1 in 4ed?
>>
>> Bear in mind that the skill list has been consolidated. 6 skills in 4e
>> probably gives you more actual abilities than 10 skills would in 3.5e.
>
> But it (severly) reduces the player's choices. If the Ftr's player
> can
> only pick one skill (package) that wouldn't be much. I hope the
> packaging isn't overdone in 4ed - and not only concerning skills.

Since one of the common criticisms of 3e is the lack of skill choices at the
low end, it seems unlikely that they will carry that lack through to 4e. I
doubt we'll see any classes with fewer than 2-3 starting skills.

Also, feats are more plentiful in 4e, and I'm sure 4e will carry over the
Saga feat Skill Training, that lets you add a new trained skill to your
list - so any character can expand their skill list if that's where they
wish to focus.

--
Mark.
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Malachias Invictus

External


Since: Sep 18, 2006
Posts: 459



(Msg. 8) Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:49 pm
Post subject: Re: |[4E] The rogue! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Phil Turner" <phil.turner.RemoveThis@bltuaeyontdetr.co.uk> wrote in message
news:5W0wj.12241$XI.7278@text.news.virginmedia.com...
> In <NuCdnbKFNYGVC13anZ2dnUVZ_rSrnZ2d.RemoveThis@comcast.com> "Malachias Invictus"
> <invictusebay.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>>"Jasin Zujovic" <jzujovic.RemoveThis@inet.hr> wrote in message
>>news:fposl2$qum$1@sunce.iskon.hr...
>>> http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/20080222a
>
> <snip>
>
>>> Trained Skills: Stealth and Thievery plus four others. From the
>>> class
>>> skills list below, choose four more trained skills at 1st level.
>>> Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dexterity), Athletics (Str), Bluff (Cha),
>>> Dungeoneering (Wis), Insight (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Perception (Wis),
>>> Stealth (Dexterity), Streetwise (Cha), Thievery (Dexterity)
>
>>That seems pretty good, given the skill consolidation. On the other hand,
>>I
>>see nothing of the supposed "super skill use" Rogues are supposedly
>>capable
>>of.
>
> <snip>
>
>>> Rogue Powers
>
> <snip>
>
>>> Tumble
>>> Rogue Utility 2
>>> You tumble out of harm's way, dodging the opportunistic attacks of your
>>> enemies.
>>>
>>> Encounter ? Martial
>>> Move Action
>>> Personal
>>> Prerequisite: You must be trained in Acrobatics.
>
> Are the "super skill uses" actually Rogue Powers with that skill
> as a prerequisite?

Perhaps that is the case. Still, not too impressive from where I am
standing.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
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Erol K. Bayburt

External


Since: Mar 02, 2005
Posts: 211



(Msg. 9) Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:31 pm
Post subject: Re: |[4E] The rogue! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 07:18:01 -0500, Tetsubo <tetsubo.RemoveThis@comcast.net>
wrote:

>> I don't have and don't want shuriken IMC.
>> Why do they try to force an oriental weapon into standard DnD?
>
> I do weapon sketches as a hobby, I have a series of them I call
>"throwing steels". I coined it as a generic term for shuriken-like
>projectiles. You could just think of shurikens as small, sharp bits of
>metal you chuck at people you don't like.

I use the term "throwing blades" myself, but it's the same idea:
shards of sharpened metal used as thrown weapons. It covers throwing
knives and daggers, darts, shuiken, chakrams etc. etc.
Erol K. Bayburt
ErolB1.RemoveThis@comcast.net
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Peter Knutsen

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Since: Feb 19, 2005
Posts: 1090



(Msg. 10) Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:37 pm
Post subject: Re: |[4E] The rogue! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Jasin Zujovic wrote:
> Key Abilities: Dexterity, Strength, Charisma

Is this list in sorted order, signifying that dexterity is (usually)
more important for Rogues than Strength, and that Strength is (usually)
more important for Rogues than Strength?

Or is Dexterity always listed before Strength in such lists?

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
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Mark Blunden

External


Since: Aug 30, 2007
Posts: 53



(Msg. 11) Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:37 pm
Post subject: Re: |[4E] The rogue! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Peter Knutsen" <peter.RemoveThis@sagatafl.invalid> wrote in message
news:47c02f93$0$15894$edfadb0f@dtext01.news.tele.dk...
> Jasin Zujovic wrote:
>> Key Abilities: Dexterity, Strength, Charisma
>
> Is this list in sorted order, signifying that dexterity is (usually) more
> important for Rogues than Strength, and that Strength is (usually) more
> important for Rogues than Strength?
>
> Or is Dexterity always listed before Strength in such lists?

It's hard to say for sure, and it probably depends upon which Rogue build
you choose, but going by that sampling of Rogue abilities, it is pretty
clear that Dexterity appears to be paramount, modifying both attack and
damage in several cases.

--
Mark.
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Allen Wessels

External


Since: Jul 11, 2005
Posts: 135



(Msg. 12) Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:10 pm
Post subject: Re: |[4E] The rogue! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <47C03F66.9070600.TakeThisOut@inet.hr>, Jasin Zujovic <jzujovic.TakeThisOut@inet.hr>
wrote:

> Lorenz.Lang.TakeThisOut@gmx.de wrote:


> > ...even if it's Godzilla? I can't believe creature size isn't
> > important
> > for *shoving* it around.
>
> I think it works better if you imagine it as poking a dragon's nose or
> stabbing a giant in the foot so they wince back rather than actually
> shoving them by main force. Indeed, Cha helps with this power, and Str
> doesn't.

From what I can see, there are a number of power results that let you
move a monster or get its attention in ways that will encourge creative
reasoning.

It's hard to imagine an adamantium golem responding to either of those
rationales.

- Allen
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Blackheart

External


Since: Apr 19, 2007
Posts: 153



(Msg. 13) Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:59 pm
Post subject: Re: |[4E] The rogue! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Feb 23, 5:30 am, Jasin Zujovic <jzujo....DeleteThis@inet.hr> wrote:

>      Build Options: Brawny rogue, trickster rogue


so you're options are (in WoW terms) Combat Spec and Subtlety spec...
how... MMO.. on paper... of them.
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Darin McBride

External


Since: Apr 02, 2007
Posts: 88



(Msg. 14) Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:28 pm
Post subject: Re: |[4E] The rogue! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Lorenz.Lang.RemoveThis@gmx.de wrote:

>> "You look surprised to see me. If you?d been paying attention, you might
>> still be alive."
>
> Speak with Dead is a Rogue power? Smile

Nonono... anyone can speak with the dead, it's like an at-will power. The
catch is that if you want *a response* ... well, then you need a
cleric. Smile
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Allen Wessels

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Since: Jul 11, 2005
Posts: 135



(Msg. 15) Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:33 pm
Post subject: Re: |[4E] The rogue! [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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In article
<1b798ecf-f4a7-464a-ae06-bee481285009.DeleteThis@n58g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
Blackheart <blackheart666_2000.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Feb 23, 5:30 am, Jasin Zujovic <jzujo....DeleteThis@inet.hr> wrote:
>
> >      Build Options: Brawny rogue, trickster rogue
>
>
> so you're options are (in WoW terms) Combat Spec and Subtlety spec...
> how... MMO.. on paper... of them.

They're retooling the product to be more accessible to an unsaturated
market and creating a leadin to a online version of the game to
transition to in the long run.

From a business perspective, I think they have to do it.

I just get tired of the "same but different" marketing.

- Allen
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