|[4E] A podcast interview with Chris Perkins and Sara Girard

Mere moments before death, Allen Wessels <awessels.RemoveThis@EXPUNGEpacbell.net>
hastily scrawled:

>I think that's part of the reason some 4e naysayers are so vehement.
>Not just because of the change factor, but be cause of their perspection
>that their kind of fun might not be doable in the new version of the
>game.

It has been my experience that whatever "your kind of fun" is, it is
doable with just about every game system ever published. Some of them
make certain kinds of fun easier (I'm looking at you Aftermath), but
then some people like filing.




--
DISCLAIMER : WARNING: RULE # 196 is X-rated in that to calculate L,
use X = [(C2/10)^2], and RULE # 193 which is NOT meant to be read by
kids, since RULE # 187 EXPLAINS homosexuality mathematically, using
modifier G @ 11.

"I always feel left out when someone *else* gets killfiled."
--Terry Austin
 >> Stay informed about: |[4E] A podcast interview with Chris Perkins and Sara Girard 

Mere moments before death, Alcore <alcore.DeleteThis@uurth.com> hastily scrawled:

>You can try to recruit the established base, or you can try to bully
>the established base.

You left out the obvious third option. You can ignore the established
base.




--
DISCLAIMER : WARNING: RULE # 196 is X-rated in that to calculate L,
use X = [(C2/10)^2], and RULE # 193 which is NOT meant to be read by
kids, since RULE # 187 EXPLAINS homosexuality mathematically, using
modifier G @ 11.

"I always feel left out when someone *else* gets killfiled."
--Terry Austin
 >> Stay informed about: |[4E] A podcast interview with Chris Perkins and Sara Girard 

Marcel Beaudoin <marcel.beaudoin.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Ryan's experience with WotC ends in 2000, but he was in for the change
> from 2nd Edition to 3.0. His insights, especially on who new versions
> are marketted to are quite interesting. It's not the long-term
> customers that they market to. The long-term customers, in the market
> research that WotC did for 3.0, tend to not buy a lot, as they already
> have a lot of books. To grow the market, they need to market to the
> new player who is just getting into the game.

Sounds about right. I would expect that existing customers either would
not buy much (they have lots, as you say) or will buy a lot if they like
it. Either way, what the publisher does has relatively little effect.
The biggest market gain is in getting altogether new customers.


Keith
--
Keith Davies below you, right now: radioactive magma
keith.davies.TakeThisOut@kjdavies.org above you, right now: hard vacuum
keith.davies.TakeThisOut@gmail.com probably somewhere near you: a product with
http://www.kjdavies.org/ label warning you it is unsafe if misused
 >> Stay informed about: |[4E] A podcast interview with Chris Perkins and Sara Girard 

Justin Fang <justinf RemoveThis @panix.com> wrote:
>
> And yet Mike Mearls is running a lunchtime game of original D&D:
>
> http://odd74.proboards76.com/index.cgi?board=campaignstories&action=di...ay&thre
> http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=8558527&postcount=59
>
> "Today I ran the first session of my OD&D campaign at the WotC
> offices. Yes, we're rolling original D&D-style in the very heart of
> the land of fourth edition."
>
> "To be honest, I think the games are different enough that I easily
> have space for both of them in my library. For me, they fill very
> different needs."

Which suggests to me that, while they may call the new one D&D and it
may be a very fun game, it's not the same game. If the play is that
different, enough that the games fill a different role, I would suggest
that they are in fact 'different games'. Even if they are called the
same thing.

Consider the variations on poker. They are all recognizably the same
game, have very similar structure (lots of variations, though), and fill
the same niche (fleecing some poor bastard of his money).

Compare that with cribbage, bridge, or crazy 8s -- all different games,
all fill different needs.


Keith
--
Keith Davies below you, right now: radioactive magma
keith.davies RemoveThis @kjdavies.org above you, right now: hard vacuum
keith.davies RemoveThis @gmail.com probably somewhere near you: a product with
http://www.kjdavies.org/ label warning you it is unsafe if misused
 >> Stay informed about: |[4E] A podcast interview with Chris Perkins and Sara Girard 

In article <slrnft3cl3.khn.keith.davies.TakeThisOut@kjdavies.org>,
Keith Davies <keith.davies.TakeThisOut@kjdavies.org> wrote:
>Justin Fang <justinf.TakeThisOut@panix.com> wrote:
>> And yet Mike Mearls is running a lunchtime game of original D&D:
>>
>> http://odd74.proboards76.com/index.cgi?board=campaignstories&action=di...ay&thre
>> http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=8558527&postcount=59
>>
>> "Today I ran the first session of my OD&D campaign at the WotC
>> offices. Yes, we're rolling original D&D-style in the very heart of
>> the land of fourth edition."
>>
>> "To be honest, I think the games are different enough that I easily
>> have space for both of them in my library. For me, they fill very
>> different needs."

>Which suggests to me that, while they may call the new one D&D and it
>may be a very fun game, it's not the same game. If the play is that
>different, enough that the games fill a different role, I would suggest
>that they are in fact 'different games'. Even if they are called the
>same thing.

On that basis, is the 1974-vintage OD&D Mearls is talking about the same
game as 3.5? I don't know, never having encountered, much less played,
the original.

Hmm. I might say that AD&D 1st ed (where I came in) is the "same game"
as 2nd ed, and that 2nd is the "same game" as 3rd, but that 3rd is a
different game from 1st. Something similar may apply to 4th; I don't yet
have enough info to tell.

--
Justin Fang (justinf@panix.com)
 >> Stay informed about: |[4E] A podcast interview with Chris Perkins and Sara Girard 

phy <phy00x.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Jasin Zujovic <jzujovic.TakeThisOut@inet.hr> wrote in news:fqnh7f$8uj$1
> @sunce.iskon.hr:
>
>> * With rituals being separated from combat powers, no one has to
>> choose between "Water Breathing" and "Fireball" (they can have both)
>
> We got the Power! Reminds me of Tim Tayler on Tool Time. You people are
> old enough to remember that show right?

Back when Pamela Lee was cute and had a nice body, aye.

>> * Detect Magic is now part of the Arcana skill (but it can only
>> be used if Trained in the skill)
>
> I always thought it was kind of dumb that a magic user had to use a
> spell to tell if something was magic.

I already had this in mind, but at Focused. I've had Detect Magic as a
feat for a while now, attaching it as the supernatural level of
Spellcraft seemed sensible to me.

>> * Monster Role names are only an "overarching guideline;"
>> Creature and encounter customization is awesome in 4e
>
> But no more sucky templates right? I always felt let down when the main
> bad guy we had to kill was a generic monster.

Don't like generic monsters, but don't like templates? Or just the
sucky ones?

Just checking. I like templates. Quite a bit.

>> * Unaligned means you haven't even picked a side. "Neutral"
>> implies being aligned in the middle.
>
> What alignment is Apathetic? What alignment is the Flying Spaghetti
> Monster? If it isn't in the first Monster Manual, I am boycotting the
> whole game and pulling my Sega Genesis out of the closet.

Apathetic would be unaligned.

>> * Designers think that most complaints about 4e mechanics are due
>> to misinterpretations or not seeing the full spectrum of the situation
>
> If you don't agree with my opinion, you are wrong!

Or "you don't know enough"

Then enlighten us. Don't whinge that we're judging on what we infer and
extrapolate if you aren't willing to give us enough information.

The 3e release, they gave us lots of good meat to chew on. 4e? Not so
much.


Keith
--
Keith Davies below you, right now: radioactive magma
keith.davies.TakeThisOut@kjdavies.org above you, right now: hard vacuum
keith.davies.TakeThisOut@gmail.com probably somewhere near you: a product with
http://www.kjdavies.org/ label warning you it is unsafe if misused
 >> Stay informed about: |[4E] A podcast interview with Chris Perkins and Sara Girard 

Allen Wessels wrote:

> I wonder what 4e Dispel Magic will look like.

Stab in the dark; allows another saving throw for those under the
effect of a thing that allows saving throws to end. Casters sustaining
things must make a save or they end.

No idea how they'll deal with long duration spells, probably need
sustained with a minor action too, so you can't keep too many going.

--
tussock

I'm like a box of chocolates; you never know what you're gunna get.
 >> Stay informed about: |[4E] A podcast interview with Chris Perkins and Sara Girard 

Keith Davies <keith.davies.RemoveThis@kjdavies.org> wrote:

>Justin Fang <justinf.RemoveThis@panix.com> wrote:
>>
>> And yet Mike Mearls is running a lunchtime game of original D&D:
>>
>> http://odd74.proboards76.com/index.cgi?board=campaignstories&action=di...ay&thre
>> http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=8558527&postcount=59
>>
>> "Today I ran the first session of my OD&D campaign at the WotC
>> offices. Yes, we're rolling original D&D-style in the very heart of
>> the land of fourth edition."
>>
>> "To be honest, I think the games are different enough that I easily
>> have space for both of them in my library. For me, they fill very
>> different needs."
>
>Which suggests to me that, while they may call the new one D&D and it
>may be a very fun game, it's not the same game. If the play is that
>different, enough that the games fill a different role, I would suggest
>that they are in fact 'different games'. Even if they are called the
>same thing.

I keep getting the feeling that 4e is going to be more of a fast paced
miniatures game with RPG trappings than 3.5e. They seem to be talking
quite a bit about how the focus is on 'cool' game play and that any
feature that interfere with that get dumped.

That suggests to me that I'd best assume that my campaign will stick
to 3.5e with an occasional borrowing from 4e stuff. No big surprise
there.

>Consider the variations on poker. They are all recognizably the same
>game, have very similar structure (lots of variations, though), and fill
>the same niche (fleecing some poor bastard of his money).
>
>Compare that with cribbage, bridge, or crazy 8s -- all different games,
>all fill different needs.
>
>
>Keith
--

Kyle Wilson
email: myfirstname at wilson.mv.com
 >> Stay informed about: |[4E] A podcast interview with Chris Perkins and Sara Girard 

In article
<ba47a754-4206-499d-9e46-53072ac95d97.TakeThisOut@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Justisaur <justisaur.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:


> It used to be chickens back in the day. I remember the first time
> someone came up 1 xp away from leveling, so they bought a chicken
> (what was it 1cp?) and killed it.
>
> - Justisaur
> or is that "Bag of Rats Part II."

Heh, IOC is was "going to hunt a squirrel".

- Allen
 >> Stay informed about: |[4E] A podcast interview with Chris Perkins and Sara Girard 

Alcore <alcore RemoveThis @uurth.com> wrote:
> On Mar 7, 2:59 pm, Keith Davies <keith.dav... RemoveThis @kjdavies.org> wrote:
> [snip]
>>     *goes up to lady* *strokes hip to get attention*
>>     "Excuse me, miss.  Half price for half height?"
> [snip]
>
> Oh Great One: Thank you. *chuckle*
>
> If, by any miracle, you ever wind up in my game, remind me of this
> story to obtain credit for 1 free boon of some profound unspecifed
> sort.

That'd be cool, thanks. Instant karma, carried between games.

> Now I'm going to have to add a customized card to my "Munchin" deck:
> "Render the DM speechless with your roleplay - Go Up One Level",
> accompanied by a picture of a halfling talking to a leg in fishnet
> pantyhose....

Oh gods, please do. And if you can get Kovalic to draw, please *please*
get me a copy. Scanned would do.

.... though if John draws it, I expect it would be Carson rather than a
halfling.

Heh. Carson, copping a feel while he looks up at her. That'd be cool.


Keith
--
Keith Davies below you, right now: radioactive magma
keith.davies RemoveThis @kjdavies.org above you, right now: hard vacuum
keith.davies RemoveThis @gmail.com probably somewhere near you: a product with
http://www.kjdavies.org/ label warning you it is unsafe if misused
 >> Stay informed about: |[4E] A podcast interview with Chris Perkins and Sara Girard 

Allen Wessels <awessels.RemoveThis@EXPUNGEpacbell.net> wrote:
> In article <Xns9A5A9FA5EA3EBmarcelbeaudoingmailc.RemoveThis@130.133.1.4>,
> Marcel Beaudoin <marcel.beaudoin.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Speaking of which, I betcha that would be a nice way to get cheap minis,
>> from DDM players who bought boxes and boxes to get the rare ones...
>
> I wouldn't be surprised if there were plenty on ebay.

I know that one of the regulars here made quite a bit of money pimping
minis like that.


Keith
--
Keith Davies below you, right now: radioactive magma
keith.davies.RemoveThis@kjdavies.org above you, right now: hard vacuum
keith.davies.RemoveThis@gmail.com probably somewhere near you: a product with
http://www.kjdavies.org/ label warning you it is unsafe if misused
 >> Stay informed about: |[4E] A podcast interview with Chris Perkins and Sara Girard 

"Marcel Beaudoin" <marcel.beaudoin DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A5A9FA5EA3EBmarcelbeaudoingmailc@130.133.1.4...
> in rec.games.frp.dnd, Allen Wessels <awessels DeleteThis @EXPUNGEpacbell.net> wrote in
> news:awessels-90B036.11284807032008@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com:

> I think that D&D RPG players are only a small percentage of the people who
> buy minis. I think that those who play DDM spend far more on miniatures
> than to RPGers.

As a former large scale reseller of those minis, I have the exact opposite
impression.

> SPeaking of which, I betcha that would be a nice way to get cheap minis,
> from DDM players who bought boxes and boxes to get the rare ones...

It is actually the D&D players who usually seek the rare ones (which tend to
be cool and/or iconic D&D monsters), whereas the DDM players want (DDM)
combat effective ones.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
 >> Stay informed about: |[4E] A podcast interview with Chris Perkins and Sara Girard 

"Allen Wessels" <awessels.RemoveThis@EXPUNGEpacbell.net> wrote in message
news:awessels-6670FB.16283706032008@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com...
> In article <yLmdnduivpP14U3anZ2dnUVZ_u6rnZ2d.RemoveThis@comcast.com>,
> "Malachias Invictus" <invictusebay.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> "Allen Wessels" <awessels.RemoveThis@EXPUNGEpacbell.net> wrote in message
>> news:awessels-5368DF.11160006032008@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com...
>
>> > Well, there's downtime and then there's downtime. Since most of us
>> > have
>> > strongholds and other holdings, and since they aren't self-supporting,
>> > there's a strong motivation to get back out there and pay the rent. So
>> > no "months" class downtime.
>>
>> Hmm. That is why Wizards need to keep other demands on their time very
>> low.
>> They need the time to research and craft.
>
> Yes, but there's the mage school, research, dealing with the agents sent
> to scour for magic items, dealing with the sages to find out more about
> certain quest lines, and the professional contact maintence with other
> high level mages.
>
> And that fool of a castellan bothering me with every little thing.

Heh.

>> > When I we do get around to making items, they tend to be serious
>> > upgrades, often in response to weak areas illuminated by the previous
>> > adventure.
>>
>> Those tend to be our priorities as well.
>
> There is one area that may not be an issue in most campaigns. Since the
> party spans a very wide variety of alignments, goals, and political
> afiliations, a certain amount of time is spent on, shall we say,
> countermeasures?

Heh. That reminds me of the old days.

> The two mages in the party, a human wizard (CG) (mine) and a drow wizard
> (CN) another player's cooperate, but there is a perpetual air of vague
> distrust between them. The drow is married to an draw Evil High
> Priestess (NPC) and that creates certain issues, not the least of which
> is that the fact that the party (NPC) Cleric hates her guts.

Good times, sounds like.

>> Same here. Very little Sundering either.
>
> Yep. Our first real interaction with Sunder was in the last adventure
> that is still ongoing. This huge Falchion-wielding Arab fellow who is
> the bodyguard of the would be Empress of the area we're trying to
> restore to power put on a demonstration of martial arts and would have
> sundered a powerful magic weapon if it hadn't been a mock combat.
>
> Plenty of flinching in the party ensued.

I believe it.

>> > I think that's part of the reason some 4e naysayers are so vehement.
>> > Not just because of the change factor, but be cause of their
>> > perspection
>> > that their kind of fun might not be doable in the new version of the
>> > game.
>>
>> Oh, I am sure you will be able to do things like that. Mearls is pretty
>> famous for promoting that exact style of gaming.
>
> The critical point is that it must be player initiated. We expect the
> DM to come up with the unexpected, but when the players do it, IMO the
> game totally rocks.

I totally agree.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
 >> Stay informed about: |[4E] A podcast interview with Chris Perkins and Sara Girard