4E compiled monsters and more

In article <awessels-42B9D7.10580817032008 RemoveThis @newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>,
Allen Wessels <awessels RemoveThis @EXPUNGEpacbell.net> wrote:
>
>Usually in those power descriptions, the buffed ally *can* perform the
>beneficial move, but there is no can, just a description of what the
>ally does.
>
>An uncharitable read of this suggests the Warlord can make your
>character do things they don't necessarily want to do, and you don't get
>a save.

Yeah that's the issue that I was getting at. If the intent of
"slide" is that the invoking player is the one who gets to
decide the move, that's getting rather away from "teamwork" and
more into the realm of fascism. Perfect for the Pit Fiend
sliding his minions, not so great for adventurers, who maybe
don't want to get slid in front of that red dragon by their
"ally".

--
"I know I promised, Lord, never again. But I also know
that YOU know what a weak-willed person I am."
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On Mar 18, 7:02 am, Keith Davies <keith.dav....DeleteThis@kjdavies.org> wrote:
>
> My KSRD design philosophy, power-wise, is somewhat derived from Justin's
> article on expectations.  Every five levels or so should be a step up in
> power category.  Normal, Heroic, Superheroic, Demigodlike.  I can accept
> that.
>
> A Wiz16 *should* be able to warp reality.

Within rigidly predefined limits predicated on game balance, anyway.
The "magic is a license to print money" meme should have died 25 years
ago.
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On 2008-03-17, Del Rio <delrio RemoveThis @panix.com> wrote:
> In article <awessels-42B9D7.10580817032008 RemoveThis @newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>,
> Allen Wessels <awessels RemoveThis @EXPUNGEpacbell.net> wrote:
>>Usually in those power descriptions, the buffed ally *can* perform the
>>beneficial move, but there is no can, just a description of what the
>>ally does.
>>
>>An uncharitable read of this suggests the Warlord can make your
>>character do things they don't necessarily want to do, and you don't get
>>a save.
>
> Yeah that's the issue that I was getting at. If the intent of
> "slide" is that the invoking player is the one who gets to
> decide the move, that's getting rather away from "teamwork" and
> more into the realm of fascism. Perfect for the Pit Fiend
> sliding his minions, not so great for adventurers, who maybe
> don't want to get slid in front of that red dragon by their
> "ally".

He's a warlord, not an asksnicelylord.

--
--- An' thou dost not get caught, do as thou wilt shall be the law ---
"Religion disperses like a fog, kingdoms perish, but the works of
scholars remain for an eternity." - Ulughbek
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drow <drow.RemoveThis@bin.sh> wrote:
> Alien mind control rays made Justisaur <justisaur.RemoveThis@gmail.com> write:
>> From the reading of the quickstart guide, It's the one with the power
>> who gets to move the other.
>
> yeah, that's what it says. but i'd play an Evil warlord who slides
> his own allies over cliffs for the humor.

Sure, why not?

Was it the Pit Fiend or Balor that could slide his allies/subordinates
and then blow them up?

"You."
"No my lord, please! Shiiiiiiit! *BOOOM*"


Keith
--
Keith Davies I married the moonshiner's daughter
keith.davies.RemoveThis@kjdavies.org How could I go wrong?
keith.davies.RemoveThis@gmail.com The moonshiner's daughter
http://www.kjdavies.org/ Put some corn in the water
And makes me liquor all night long
-- Hayseed Dixie, _Moonshiner's Daughter_
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Keith Davies wrote:

> drow <drow.DeleteThis@bin.sh> wrote:
>
>>Alien mind control rays made Justisaur <justisaur.DeleteThis@gmail.com> write:
>>
>>>From the reading of the quickstart guide, It's the one with the power
>>>who gets to move the other.
>>
>>yeah, that's what it says. but i'd play an Evil warlord who slides
>>his own allies over cliffs for the humor.
>
>
> Sure, why not?
>
> Was it the Pit Fiend or Balor that could slide his allies/subordinates
> and then blow them up?
>
> "You."
> "No my lord, please! Shiiiiiiit! *BOOOM*"
>
>
> Keith

Reminds me of Time Lords.

--
Tetsubo
--------------------------------------
"The apparent lesson of the Inquisition is that insistence on
uniformity of belief is fatal to intellectual, moral and spiritual health."
-The Uses Of The Past-, Herbert J. Muller

BLUP
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In article <pfadnYYawsQCfUPanZ2dnUVZ_hzinZ2d RemoveThis @comcast.com>,
Tetsubo <tetsubo RemoveThis @comcast.net> wrote:

> Keith Davies wrote:
>
> > drow <drow RemoveThis @bin.sh> wrote:
> >
> >>Alien mind control rays made Justisaur <justisaur RemoveThis @gmail.com> write:
> >>
> >>>From the reading of the quickstart guide, It's the one with the power
> >>>who gets to move the other.
> >>
> >>yeah, that's what it says. but i'd play an Evil warlord who slides
> >>his own allies over cliffs for the humor.
> >
> >
> > Sure, why not?
> >
> > Was it the Pit Fiend or Balor that could slide his allies/subordinates
> > and then blow them up?
> >
> > "You."
> > "No my lord, please! Shiiiiiiit! *BOOOM*"
> >
> >
> > Keith
>
> Reminds me of Time Lords.

Time Bandits?

"Kill me, master. Kill me."

"Not now, Benson. We have work to do. No lesser work than the
overthrowing of Creation itself. We will remake man in our image, not
his. We will turn mountains into sea, and the skies into rivers, the
fjords into deserts, and the deserts into flatland. . ."

- Allen
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Allen Wessels wrote:

> In article <pfadnYYawsQCfUPanZ2dnUVZ_hzinZ2d RemoveThis @comcast.com>,
> Tetsubo <tetsubo RemoveThis @comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Keith Davies wrote:
>>
>>
>>>drow <drow RemoveThis @bin.sh> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Alien mind control rays made Justisaur <justisaur RemoveThis @gmail.com> write:
>>>>
>>>>>From the reading of the quickstart guide, It's the one with the power
>>>>
>>>>>who gets to move the other.
>>>>
>>>>yeah, that's what it says. but i'd play an Evil warlord who slides
>>>>his own allies over cliffs for the humor.
>>>
>>>
>>>Sure, why not?
>>>
>>>Was it the Pit Fiend or Balor that could slide his allies/subordinates
>>>and then blow them up?
>>>
>>>"You."
>>>"No my lord, please! Shiiiiiiit! *BOOOM*"
>>>
>>>
>>>Keith
>>
>> Reminds me of Time Lords.
>
>
> Time Bandits?

Right...

>
> "Kill me, master. Kill me."
>
> "Not now, Benson. We have work to do. No lesser work than the
> overthrowing of Creation itself. We will remake man in our image, not
> his. We will turn mountains into sea, and the skies into rivers, the
> fjords into deserts, and the deserts into flatland. . ."
>
> - Allen


--
Tetsubo
--------------------------------------
"The apparent lesson of the Inquisition is that insistence on
uniformity of belief is fatal to intellectual, moral and spiritual health."
-The Uses Of The Past-, Herbert J. Muller

BLUP
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Hong Ooi <hong RemoveThis @zipworld.com.au> wrote:
> On Mar 17, 1:53 pm, Sea Wasp <seawaspObvi... RemoveThis @sgeObviousinc.com> wrote:
>
>> Who do you think I am, Edward Elric?
>
> Eddie!

Okay, that just justified the time I've spent reading this thread.


Keith
--
Keith Davies I married the moonshiner's daughter
keith.davies RemoveThis @kjdavies.org How could I go wrong?
keith.davies RemoveThis @gmail.com The moonshiner's daughter
http://www.kjdavies.org/ Put some corn in the water
And makes me liquor all night long
-- Hayseed Dixie, _Moonshiner's Daughter_
 >> Stay informed about: 4E compiled monsters and more 

Del Rio <delrio.RemoveThis@panix.com> wrote:
> In article <8cd8663b-7f69-4e8e-95c5-6ff991a1195a.RemoveThis@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
> Justisaur <justisaur.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>>On Mar 14, 6:23 pm, Hong Ooi <h....RemoveThis@zipworld.com.au> wrote:
>>> Justisaur wrote:
>>>
>>> Did you notice at-will Mage Hand?
>>
>>Oh yea, that seems almost over the top. Maybe not almost. It's a lot
>>better than 3.5's mage hand too beyond being able to do it all day
>>long. There's a whole hell of a lot I could do with that in a
>>dungeon.
>>
>>There's still some wizard cheese to look forward to, and that's only
>>1st level.
>
> It seems to me that being able to do stuff like Mage Hand and/or
> Light "at will" makes D&D Wizard seem almost like... you know,
> *wizards*. As opposed to people who at high levels can execute
> absolutely mind-blowing amounts of death and destruction, but
> can still only cast Light once, because that's all they
> memorized.

With the exception of a very few 0-level spells with cumulative effects
(create water and cure minor wounds IIRC) we allowed fullcasters
(wizards, sorcerers, clerics, druids) use 0-level spells at will. You
still had to prepare them (a number equal to the class spells/day table
+ casting ability score modifier) but were otherwise unlimited in how
you used them.

No balance problem at fifth level. Most of the time your highest-level
spells are the ones you *want*, having cantrips available was merely a
convenience and flavor. Well, it did save me *many* coppers in torch
expenses, I guess.

There's the occasional actual adventuring use (I used /mage hand/ to
lift a silk rope and wrapped it around a projection some 15 feet above
me; somebody might've had to make a Climb check if I hadn't) or even use
in combat (I was fortunate enough to have /ray of frost/ when we faced
off against some fire-templated ochre jellies, so I could stay back and
snipe at the slow-moving beasties and get the bonus damage!), but really
it takes special circumstances for there to be any balance issues here.


Keith
--
Keith Davies I married the moonshiner's daughter
keith.davies.RemoveThis@kjdavies.org How could I go wrong?
keith.davies.RemoveThis@gmail.com The moonshiner's daughter
http://www.kjdavies.org/ Put some corn in the water
And makes me liquor all night long
-- Hayseed Dixie, _Moonshiner's Daughter_
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Malachias Invictus <invictusebay.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> "Del Rio" <delrio.DeleteThis@panix.com> wrote in message
> news:frgoq0$j1r$1@reader2.panix.com...
>> In article
>> <8cd8663b-7f69-4e8e-95c5-6ff991a1195a.DeleteThis@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
>> Justisaur <justisaur.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>On Mar 14, 6:23 pm, Hong Ooi <h....DeleteThis@zipworld.com.au> wrote:
>>>> Justisaur wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Did you notice at-will Mage Hand?
>>>
>>>Oh yea, that seems almost over the top. Maybe not almost. It's a lot
>>>better than 3.5's mage hand too beyond being able to do it all day
>>>long. There's a whole hell of a lot I could do with that in a
>>>dungeon.
>>>
>>>There's still some wizard cheese to look forward to, and that's only
>>>1st level.
>>
>> It seems to me that being able to do stuff like Mage Hand and/or
>> Light "at will" makes D&D Wizard seem almost like... you know,
>> *wizards*.
>
> I totally agree.
>
>> As opposed to people who at high levels can execute
>> absolutely mind-blowing amounts of death and destruction, but
>> can still only cast Light once, because that's all they
>> memorized.
>
> Heh. I am just hoping they get the whole "mind-blowing amounts of
> death and destruction" part right. From what I have seen, the upper
> level stuff seems nerfed.

My KSRD design philosophy, power-wise, is somewhat derived from Justin's
article on expectations. Every five levels or so should be a step up in
power category. Normal, Heroic, Superheroic, Demigodlike. I can accept
that.

A Wiz16 *should* be able to warp reality. A Ftr16 *should* be able to
face a dragon by himself with some chance of survival (a 'normal' one,
at least; the most powerful dragons should be able to face down a
party...). A Clr16 should be able to buddy up with the servants of his
god without being obliterated by their presence. And so on.

I don't want everything to be a reasonable match of power and
survivability. I want there to be situations where a bad decision
results in death for *somebody* (preferably the opposition rather than
the PCs, but I'm flexible that way).


Keith
--
Keith Davies I married the moonshiner's daughter
keith.davies.DeleteThis@kjdavies.org How could I go wrong?
keith.davies.DeleteThis@gmail.com The moonshiner's daughter
http://www.kjdavies.org/ Put some corn in the water
And makes me liquor all night long
-- Hayseed Dixie, _Moonshiner's Daughter_
 >> Stay informed about: 4E compiled monsters and more 

Alien mind control rays made sw <sw.DeleteThis@eyrie.org> write:
>> Yeah that's the issue that I was getting at. If the intent of
>> "slide" is that the invoking player is the one who gets to
>> decide the move, that's getting rather away from "teamwork" and
>> more into the realm of fascism. Perfect for the Pit Fiend
>> sliding his minions, not so great for adventurers, who maybe
>> don't want to get slid in front of that red dragon by their
>> "ally".
>
> He's a warlord, not an asksnicelylord.

which will be released in 2009, as part of Complete Wusses

--
n_n n_n drow.DeleteThis@bin.sh (CARRIER LOST) <http://www.bin.sh/>
|"|n_n_n|"| ---------------------------------------------------------------
| | " " | | "im in ur dunjin, killin ur orkz.
|_|_[T]_|_| i can has xp, plz? kthxbye!"
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On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 18:56:54 -0700 (PDT), Hong Ooi <hong DeleteThis @zipworld.com.au>
scribed into the ether:

>On Mar 18, 5:43 am, Matt Frisch <matus... DeleteThis @yahoo.spam.me.not.com>
>wrote:
>> On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 23:00:06 -0700 (PDT), Hong Ooi <h... DeleteThis @zipworld.com.au>
>> scribed into the ether:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Mar 17, 1:23 pm, Matt Frisch <matus... DeleteThis @yahoo.spam.me.not.com>
>> >wrote:
>> >> On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 17:42:04 -0700 (PDT), Hong Ooi <h... DeleteThis @zipworld.com.au>
>> >> scribed into the ether:
>>
>> >> >On Mar 17, 9:02 am, Allen Wessels <awess... DeleteThis @EXPUNGEpacbell.net> wrote:
>> >> >> In article <GdWdnaUOT8fKD0DanZ2dnUVZ_ualn... DeleteThis @comcast.com>,
>>
>> >> >>  Tetsubo <tets... DeleteThis @comcast.net> wrote:
>> >> >> > Allen Wessels wrote:
>> >> >> > > One begins to understand and empathize with why royalty from time to
>> >> >> > > time had court jesters tortured and/or executed.
>> >> >> >    The role of the Jester was to tell the King the truth via humor and
>> >> >> > verse. He may well be the only person in Court that could do that and
>> >> >> > not be executed. In many ways he played the role of Jimney Cricket.
>>
>> >> >> Every Jester or Bard walked a fine line.
>>
>> >> >> >    Hong is failing miserably at this if he is the newsgroups Jester. The
>> >> >> > joke on D&D players is 4E.
>>
>> >> >> All jokes wear thin if you overuse them.
>>
>> >> >Yes, that's what Matt would say.
>>
>> >> No, I'm just waiting for you to demonstrate the ability to do anything
>> >> better than me,
>>
>> >I fail to do a high-pitched voice better than you.
>>
>> >>since that's about the only claim you've ever made, and yet
>> >> it has never actually materialized.
>>
>> >Have a generic food metaphor on me.
>>
>> >> Rather sad, when nobody else has ever seen the one thing you claim to be
>> >> good at.
>>
>> >I've already admitted that you do a high-pitched voice better than me.
>> >I suppose continuing in this vein can only throw up more things that
>> >you do better than me, but, well, that's your lookout.
>>
>> >> PS: Piss off, troll.
>>
>> >Whereas I still do this better than you.
>>
>> Pathetic.
>
>Indeed, that is another thing you do better than me. So that's two
>things so far!

Add reading comprehension, subtract for your lack thereof.

Still pathetic, Hong. I remember when you at least used to be mildly
entertaining. Now you're Terry with even less variance in what you say.
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Sea Wasp wrote:
> Hong Ooi wrote:
>> On Mar 17, 12:03 pm, Allen Wessels <awess....RemoveThis@EXPUNGEpacbell.net>
>> wrote:
>
>>> Don't be so open-minded your brain falls out.
>>
>>
>> This is already handled by the simple strategem of not thinking too
>> hard about fantasy.
>
> That's a bad idea for anyone who actually wants to WRITE any.

Well, I never think too hard about that fantasy I once read about the
crab and the nekkid woman on the beach. And it's true that I'll never
beable to write something like that. So I guess you're right!
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