|[4E] - Mike Mearls on magic-less parties

Henry Lockwood <henry.lockwood.TakeThisOut@cantab.net> wrote:
>> >> IME faster movement mostly gives more spotlight time, it rarely
>> >> really helps much in combat,
>>
>> > I find that it matters in combat quite a bit, especially if you are
>> > using Book of 9 Swords.
>>
>> Oh gods yes.
>>
>> I've found tanks often come late to the party if the encounter
>> distance is more than a round or two. The mobility guys get to haul
>> ass, can often flank and get past the meatshields, and start killing
>> the ranged guys (who are usually relatively lightly protected).
>>
>> IME the tanks make good meatshields to keep the opposition off the
>> delicate firepower, while the mobility guys and the firepower do the
>> most damage to the opponents. If the tanks get involved and
>> personal, it's usually a sign things are getting hairy.
>
> Too true! That's why I'm quite a fan of the Knight from PHB II: not
> played one yet, but the "I can take whatever you can dish, and then
> some, and nope, you still Shall Not Pass" factor has a lot going for
> it. Yes, he might not be able to do much actual hitting, but he
> doesn't need to.

Which is okay if that's what you're into. I find it a little
disappointing that the tank isn't a very good offensive fighter. You'd
think that maybe with the good protection and heavy hitting it'd be a
good fit, but it's not.

Granted, yes, he's got good defense (but not a lot higher than the
Dex-based fighter, if that), which is something you'd want here, but
that he doesn't do so well when it comes to wading in and beating on
things (for reasons previously listed) irks me a little.

I wouldn't mind so much if the agile types were more limited in their
don't-get-hitness, but when they are about as good as the tanks, and
often functionally better, I don't like it.


Keith
--
Keith Davies below you, right now: radioactive magma
keith.davies.TakeThisOut@kjdavies.org above you, right now: hard vacuum
keith.davies.TakeThisOut@gmail.com probably somewhere near you: a product with
http://www.kjdavies.org/ label warning you it is unsafe if misused

Malachias Invictus <invictusebay.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> "DougL" <lampert.doug.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:c381b8aa-f0b7-4174-b8bd-0ac36f009809@m23g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>>"Malachias Invictus" <invictuse....TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> "DougL" <lampert.d....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> > They may be figuring "close" is good enough
>>> > even if it's not. IME fast guys actually end up a couple of points
>>> > behind on AC (in fact full plate and 12 Dex is a point better than any
>>> > other reasonable combination, and light characters don't always max
>>> > out their dex bonus to AC).
>
>>> If you are not coming close to maximum Dexterity, then you are
>>> likely right. I find that most front-liners either have a very high
>>> Dexterity, or a very low one (and most have the former). If you
>>> figure on a 16 Dexterity (which is high), you are losing 2 AC from
>>> Dexterity by going heavy (Full Plate), but gaining 4 AC from Armor
>>> (vs. a Chain Shirt). On the other hand, once you get a +4 Dexterity
>>> item, you are even. Even, that is, if you ignore weight issues,
>>> movement penalties, and armor check penalties. The higher level you
>>> get, the less that heavy armor is helping.
>
>>The chain shirt is ALWAYS behind. It has +4 max dex bonus and +4 AC.
>
> You are forgetting Mithril. Make that a +6 Max Dex, for only 1K gp.

And still cheaper than mundane full plate (1100 vs. 1800, IIRC --
mithral breastplate is 1200, again IIRC).

>>The Plate has +1 max dex bonus and +8 AC.
>
> Granted, you can get the same for Full Plate, but it costs 9K gp. At
> that point, you are probably better going Adamantine for 15K gp, and
> getting DR 3/-.

I've been tempted to give heavier armor DR on principle, and reduce the
load difficulties. Heavy armor is heavy load, unless you're proficient,
then it counts only against weight carried. Similiarly, medium armor is
medium load unless proficient. Etc.

Thus, a strong tank may be able to move at 30' in combat. The
Dex-monkey still has feats (Mobility, Spring Attack, etc.) that'll let
him move *better*, but when it comes to tactical movement they can still
be comparable. May still limit running speed, though.

I've also ignoring max Dex limits on armor, if you're proficient. In
all the training I've done (not much compared to serious practitioners)
I have only rarely *dodged* a blow. Parry or block (both of which are
only minimally affected by what I'm carrying, unless it's obstructing my
arms), redirect it somewhere it doesn't matter (a close parry that hits
my armor, good enough), and so on, but never *dodge*.

Admittedly, Dex 17 I'm not. However, if Dex counts toward defense at
all, I have no problem allowing it to do so if you're not obstructed by
your armor. And I'm willing to say that if you're proficient with your
armor, you've got the training needed to carry it without trouble.

Of course, if you're not trained, and not strong enough, you may be
sucking down ACP and load penalties. And I'm okay with that, too.

>> And if you have teleport one guess as to who the wizard is near
>> enought to to take with him.
>
> As for the other big brutes, I have not found them able to catch the
> faster characters. Generally, they get the one guy in the back, if
> they get anyone. Of course, our group also has a lot of folks with
> 40' and 50' movement, which is pretty easy to get even at low levels.

Unless, of course, you're wearing armor.


Keith
--
Keith Davies below you, right now: radioactive magma
keith.davies.TakeThisOut@kjdavies.org above you, right now: hard vacuum
keith.davies.TakeThisOut@gmail.com probably somewhere near you: a product with
http://www.kjdavies.org/ label warning you it is unsafe if misused