|[4E] Interview with Andy Collins and Scott Rouse

John wrote:
> Jasin Zujovic wrote:
>
>>At that point, the Big Bad came out and was 34 feet away from RouseÂ’s
>>character. On his turn, he took a move action towards the boss and took
>>an attack of opportunity from a goblin. He then used his “Phase Step”
>>ability (a move action) to teleport up to 25 feet, which allowed him to
>>flank the big bad.
>
> I remember an earlier post (can't find it right now) describing this
> same combat, but stating that Rouse's elf used the phase step to get
> "behind" the Big Bad. Does 4e have directional facing in combat?

I think what happened was they were trying a few changes to how you
got your combat advantage bonuses, like flanking, but didn't want to use
terminology that may not make the cut. Stuff like, one guy got a monsters
attention with an attack, the next could get advantage if not adjacent,
but you had to track who had the monster's attention.

So they switched to natural language descriptions for a while, and
now they're back to 3e-style flanking.

--
tussock

I'm like a box of chocolates; you never know what you're gunna get.
 >> Stay informed about: |[4E] Interview with Andy Collins and Scott Rouse 

Allen Wessels wrote:
>> Yup, but I wonder if the effort it would have taken to get z-axis movememt
>> into the game-table on release would be worth the number of people who
>> would use it?
>
> Well, if you eliminate levitation, flying, and shapechanging from
> character abilities, probably not.

Also: stairs, ledges and pits.

The digital initiative seems to be living up to overall WotC's digital
tradition.


--
Jasin
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In article <fqf8id$rog$1@sunce.iskon.hr>,
Jasin Zujovic <jzujovic.DeleteThis@inet.hr> wrote:

> Allen Wessels wrote:
> >> Yup, but I wonder if the effort it would have taken to get z-axis movememt
> >> into the game-table on release would be worth the number of people who
> >> would use it?
> >
> > Well, if you eliminate levitation, flying, and shapechanging from
> > character abilities, probably not.
>
> Also: stairs, ledges and pits.
>
> The digital initiative seems to be living up to overall WotC's digital
> tradition.

You do those by treating them as special rooms ala terrain in an RTS
like Starcraft.

- Allen
 >> Stay informed about: |[4E] Interview with Andy Collins and Scott Rouse 

In article <CLednUBSXKtrDVbanZ2dnUVZ_tCrnZ2d.TakeThisOut@comcast.com>,
"Malachias Invictus" <invictusebay.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > I suspect that it's a design choice designed to parallel limitations in
> > the board game.
>
> What board game.

Sorry. I was referring to the fact that I think no Z-axis movement in
the combat mode of 4e and the fact that the digital game board doesn't
support it have common roots.

- Allen
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"Jim Davies" <jim RemoveThis @aaargh.NoBleedinSpam.org> wrote in message
news:reros3tufo8pbj6m221e6d0g6c7ur4t0rv@4ax.com...
> On the grave of "Malachias Invictus" <invictusebay RemoveThis @yahoo.com> is
> inscribed:
>
>>
>>"Allen Wessels" <awessels RemoveThis @EXPUNGEpacbell.net> wrote in message
>
>>> I suspect that it's a design choice designed to parallel limitations in
>>> the board game.
>>
>>What board game.
>
> 4e, based on the reports of Masswyrm part 3. 4e combat seems to demand
> miniatures, which might as well be a board game. At least when I use
> minis in a game, they get pushed around a piece of board.

Using minis in D&D does not make D&D a board game.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
 >> Stay informed about: |[4E] Interview with Andy Collins and Scott Rouse 

Malachias Invictus wrote:

> "Jim Davies" <jim.DeleteThis@aaargh.NoBleedinSpam.org> wrote in message
> news:reros3tufo8pbj6m221e6d0g6c7ur4t0rv@4ax.com...
>
>>On the grave of "Malachias Invictus" <invictusebay.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> is
>>inscribed:
>>
>>
>>>"Allen Wessels" <awessels.DeleteThis@EXPUNGEpacbell.net> wrote in message
>>
>>>>I suspect that it's a design choice designed to parallel limitations in
>>>>the board game.
>>>
>>>What board game.
>>
>>4e, based on the reports of Masswyrm part 3. 4e combat seems to demand
>>miniatures, which might as well be a board game. At least when I use
>>minis in a game, they get pushed around a piece of board.
>
>
> Using minis in D&D does not make D&D a board game.
>

But *requiring* them does.

--
Tetsubo
--------------------------------------
"The apparent lesson of the Inquisition is that insistence on
uniformity of belief is fatal to intellectual, moral and spiritual health."
-The Uses Of The Past-, Herbert J. Muller

BLUP
 >> Stay informed about: |[4E] Interview with Andy Collins and Scott Rouse 

"Tetsubo" <tetsubo.DeleteThis@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:BoadnUZVlIFU3FDanZ2dnUVZ_srinZ2d@comcast.com...
> Malachias Invictus wrote:
>
>> "Jim Davies" <jim.DeleteThis@aaargh.NoBleedinSpam.org> wrote in message
>> news:reros3tufo8pbj6m221e6d0g6c7ur4t0rv@4ax.com...
>>
>>>On the grave of "Malachias Invictus" <invictusebay.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> is
>>>inscribed:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Allen Wessels" <awessels.DeleteThis@EXPUNGEpacbell.net> wrote in message
>>>
>>>>>I suspect that it's a design choice designed to parallel limitations in
>>>>>the board game.
>>>>
>>>>What board game.
>>>
>>>4e, based on the reports of Masswyrm part 3. 4e combat seems to demand
>>>miniatures, which might as well be a board game. At least when I use
>>>minis in a game, they get pushed around a piece of board.
>>
>>
>> Using minis in D&D does not make D&D a board game.
>>
>
> But *requiring* them does.

No, it still doesn't.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
 >> Stay informed about: |[4E] Interview with Andy Collins and Scott Rouse 

On 2008-03-04, Tetsubo <tetsubo RemoveThis @comcast.net> wrote:
> Malachias Invictus wrote:
>> Using minis in D&D does not make D&D a board game.

> But *requiring* them does.

No. Not every game on which there is some kind of table surface is a "board
game". WH40K isn't a board game, it's a miniatures combat game.

"Board game" is a little more specific than that.

--
Copyright 2008, all wrongs reversed. Peter Seebach / usenet-nospam RemoveThis @seebs.net
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 >> Stay informed about: |[4E] Interview with Andy Collins and Scott Rouse 

Jim Davies wrote:

> 4e, based on the reports of Masswyrm part 3. 4e combat seems to demand
> miniatures, which might as well be a board game.

I saw the same comments about 3e early on, and it wasn't true then.
Unless they have a division of allowed movement like the knight, biship,
and rook in chess, you won't need the grid, even if they describe
everything in terms of grid squares.

--
tussock
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tussock <scrub DeleteThis @clear.net.nz> wrote:
> John wrote:
>> Jasin Zujovic wrote:
>>
>>>At that point, the Big Bad came out and was 34 feet away from Rouse’s
>>>character. On his turn, he took a move action towards the boss and took
>>>an attack of opportunity from a goblin. He then used his “Phase Step”
>>>ability (a move action) to teleport up to 25 feet, which allowed him to
>>>flank the big bad.
>>
>> I remember an earlier post (can't find it right now) describing this
>> same combat, but stating that Rouse's elf used the phase step to get
>> "behind" the Big Bad. Does 4e have directional facing in combat?
>
> I think what happened was they were trying a few changes to how you
> got your combat advantage bonuses, like flanking, but didn't want to use
> terminology that may not make the cut. Stuff like, one guy got a monsters
> attention with an attack, the next could get advantage if not adjacent,
> but you had to track who had the monster's attention.
>
> So they switched to natural language descriptions for a while, and
> now they're back to 3e-style flanking.

I can accept 3e-style flanking as a base. I've made a couple of changes
though (anyone shocked? No? Okay, moving on...)

1. flanked is a condition. If you're flanked, everyone who threatens
you get the benefits.

2. you can be flanked when there are three people around you, even if
no two are diametric:

Z.Z @ is flanked by Zs (zombies)
.@.
.Z.

3. you can choose to ignore someone, possibly breaking a flank. The
ignored creature treats you as flatfooted[1], which might be very bad
for you.

[1] I'm not entirely sure about this. I can see tanks doing this
regularly; they might not lose Dex bonus at all, and not being able
to do an AoO against the guy behind him might not matter. I might
toss an AoO in there as well (you're not paying attention, he can
get in a cheap shot), flatfooted. Ignoring the goblin because of
the hill giant might be a very bad thing.


Keith
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keith.davies DeleteThis @gmail.com probably somewhere near you: a product with
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Alien mind control rays made Keith Davies <keith.davies.RemoveThis@kjdavies.org> write:
> 2. you can be flanked when there are three people around you, even if
> no two are diametric:

entirely reasonable.

> 3. you can choose to ignore someone, possibly breaking a flank. The
> ignored creature treats you as flatfooted[1], which might be very bad
> for you.

i'd go one harsher -- the ignored creature gains all the benefits of
being invisible with respect to attacking you.

--
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| --------- |== -----------------------------------------------------------
I"/""|"|Z7""' "That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
lJ | | That which does is fracking toast after I respawn."
|_l
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drow <drow RemoveThis @bin.sh> wrote:
> Alien mind control rays made Keith Davies <keith.davies RemoveThis @kjdavies.org> write:
>> 2. you can be flanked when there are three people around you, even if
>> no two are diametric:
>
> entirely reasonable.
>
>> 3. you can choose to ignore someone, possibly breaking a flank. The
>> ignored creature treats you as flatfooted[1], which might be very bad
>> for you.
>
> i'd go one harsher -- the ignored creature gains all the benefits of
> being invisible with respect to attacking you.

Invisibility, for attack purposes, isn't much use. +2 to attack with
melee or ranged attacks. It's great for defense, but I'd rule that
since you're ignoring him you don't get to -- not your normal attack, no
AoO, nothing. If you're beating on the other one that's no cost though,
still.

I think 'he gets an AoO, and he treats you as flatfooted until your next
turn' is probably good enough. I don't know that the +2 is still needed
in this case. Even though the tank isn't that affected, I see this as
an okay thing, really -- he's surrounded by armor. Ignoring someone
when you're *not* in armor, well. You deserve what happens to you.


Keith
--
Keith Davies below you, right now: radioactive magma
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keith.davies RemoveThis @gmail.com probably somewhere near you: a product with
http://www.kjdavies.org/ label warning you it is unsafe if misused
 >> Stay informed about: |[4E] Interview with Andy Collins and Scott Rouse 

Keith Davies wrote:

> I can accept 3e-style flanking as a base. I've made a couple of changes
> though (anyone shocked? No? Okay, moving on...)

Didn't everyone "fix" flanking?

> 1. flanked is a condition. If you're flanked, everyone who threatens
> you get the benefits.

4e's doing that too it seems, as more info trickles out. Why ever
didn't I think of it? Could even fold it into a general "distracted"
condition with other effects that give Rogues a sneak attack and
opponetns a small hit bonus, of which there are rather a lot.

> 2. you can be flanked when there are three people around you, even if
> no two are diametric:
>
> Z.Z @ is flanked by Zs (zombies)
> .@.
> .Z.

Zombies are 'z's, 'Z's are Zephyr hounds; what game are you playing?
But yes, tri-flank, too obvious. As a simpler rule, I suggest any two
opponents more than 90 degrees sperated provide flanking, a close enough
approximation.

> 3. you can choose to ignore someone, possibly breaking a flank. The
> ignored creature treats you as flatfooted[1], which might be very bad
> for you.

Gives an oppy to and counts as blinded against, allowing them to try
a grapple and deny you your Dex to the big guy another way.

--
tussock

I'm like a box of chocolates; you never know what you're gunna get.
 >> Stay informed about: |[4E] Interview with Andy Collins and Scott Rouse