|[4E] A Better Look At The Character Sheets

Mere moments before death, Jasin Zujovic <jzujovic.DeleteThis@inet.hr> hastily
scrawled:

>Ed Chauvin IV wrote:
>>> I'm not thrilled about those either.
>>
>> So far, all you've been able to say is "Me no like." Why do you
>> bother repeating yourself? Why not expound upon your point and let
>> the rest of the world in on what you're thinking. Because I sure as
>> hell can't figure out what your "problem" with this ability is.
>
>Your opinion really isn't that important to me.

Why would you say that? What's my opinion got to do with this
discussion? Where has my opinion even entered into it?

>But in case you speak for others, I'll try to use the example you
>dismissed elsewhere in the thread:
>
>Imagine a spell that summons a planetar. The mere sight of such majesty
>is such a shock that it deals 1 hit point of damage to everyone within
>30 ft. It's a fear effect, and Will negates. The planetar disappears
>immediately afterwards.
>
>Do you think that this is a good 1st-level spell?

I don't even know what 1st level *means* in 4e yet.

>I expect that you don't, and that most people wouldn't.

I expect that it would depend on the tone of the game you're playing.
Such a spell would be completely appropriate in certain anime style
genres.

>For me, the same feeling of aesthetic wrongness this spell causes is
>caused by 1st-level characters teleporting. The feeling is less intense,
> but it's there. The mechanics seem inappropriate to the idea of the
>power, it seems like the power should be more difficult (i.e. higher
>level, in D&D) and do more. In both cases, teleportation and planetar
>summoning.

So, you don't think there should be a scaling of teleportation or
summoning powers? Or is your complaint merely on the granularity of
the scaling?

>Ultimately, my complaint indeed is "me no like". I'm not convinced there
>are actually going to be significant game play problems with the
>eladrin's teleport power. But RPGs are more than game play, and I don't
>think aesthetic complaints should be automatically dismissed.

Well, they are changing the game. It is going to be different. I for
one, am going to give it a chance. I won't know until I see it in
action how I'm going to feel about it.



--
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Jasin Zujovic wrote:

> The pokemount has been one of the most annoying features of 3.5 until I
> managed to handwave it in a way I'm happy with: the mount doesn't
> actually <poof!> magically appear, it just manages to find it's way to
> where you are (however unlikely). If you're in a dungeon, when you
> whistle, it comes galloping down the hallway behind you. If you're in
> the city, it appears out of a side street. Kind of like Shadowfax is
> always around when Gandalf needs him.

Isn't that what summoning always is? You all suddenly remember the
critter has been there all along, only now it's participating. Then it
goes back to being not important enough to pay attention to as it "goes
away".

> Obviously, there are cases where this is patently silly (what if you're
> on a ship? or in a sealed adamantium cube?) but I prefer not to think
> too hard about those until I absolutely need to.

On the ship, it's wherever you remember putting it on the ship, just
try not to summon too many different things there over the weeks. With
the cube, the summons is immediately outside the cube, where you suddenly
remember leaving it last, unless there's enough space for you to remember
it being in there with you.

--
tussock

I'm like a box of chocolates; you never know what you're gunna get.
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tussock wrote:
>> The pokemount has been one of the most annoying features of 3.5 until I
>> managed to handwave it in a way I'm happy with: the mount doesn't
>> actually <poof!> magically appear, it just manages to find it's way to
>> where you are (however unlikely). If you're in a dungeon, when you
>> whistle, it comes galloping down the hallway behind you. If you're in
>> the city, it appears out of a side street. Kind of like Shadowfax is
>> always around when Gandalf needs him.
>
> Isn't that what summoning always is? You all suddenly remember the
> critter has been there all along, only now it's participating. Then it
> goes back to being not important enough to pay attention to as it "goes
> away".

Is it? For effects like summon monster, I have no problem with it
actually being magical summoning, complete with cheap coloured smoke
special effects.


--
Jasin
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Mark Blunden wrote:
> Peter Knutsen wrote:
>> Hong Ooi wrote:
>
>>> It looks like 4E is going down the "this guy is clearly supported by
>>> divine powers" route. Supported by that is how you'll be able to
>>> play evil paladins, so the class really is a divine champion as
>>> opposed to an honourable, devout warrior. But I think the zeitgeist
>>> has been firmly behind this definition for some time.
>>
>> Paladins *should* be supported by power. But who does it have to be
>> blatantly obvious to everyone present?
>>
>> Lots of 3.0/3.5 Paladin abilities were nice and subtle, while still
>> being *hugely* game-useful.
>
> You know, if there's any single class that I can imagine wanting to
> create a nice, unsubtle display of divine power, it's the paladin -
> moreso than the cleric, even.

Let's also be honest: it is entirely trivial to excise all of the "burst of
radiant light" flavour from these abilities.

Check it:

* Bolstering Strike needs no alteration.
* Divine Challenge could be changed to "You boldly confront a nearby enemy,
and your god's anger turns against it if it ignores your challenge."
* Holy Strike? "You strike at an enemy with your weapon, which lands with a
strength backed by your faith."
* Lay on Hands is fine as is.
* Channel Divinity: Divine Mettle, Channel Divinity: Divine Strength, and On
Pain of Death are likewise in need of no alteration.
* Shielding Smite is as easy to "fix" as pie - "As you strike a righteous
blow in service of your patron, you call for his protection to be granted to
your ally." It doesn't need a visually magical effect, any more than Holger
Carlsen's ring of faith to keep out the giant was a golden wall of holy
fire.

Wizards of the Coast might write the game to a similar level of overt visual
displays of power as, say, World of Warcraft - and my small guild has three
high-level paladins, so I know they have some *very* flashy abilities - but
it's hardly necessary to open the door to bursts of holy light and golden
shields of magic, and trivial to dispense of them.

--
Christopher Adams
Sydney, Australia
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Christopher Adams wrote:
>>>> It looks like 4E is going down the "this guy is clearly supported by
>>>> divine powers" route. Supported by that is how you'll be able to
>>>> play evil paladins, so the class really is a divine champion as
>>>> opposed to an honourable, devout warrior. But I think the zeitgeist
>>>> has been firmly behind this definition for some time.
>>> Paladins *should* be supported by power. But who does it have to be
>>> blatantly obvious to everyone present?
>>>
>>> Lots of 3.0/3.5 Paladin abilities were nice and subtle, while still
>>> being *hugely* game-useful.
>> You know, if there's any single class that I can imagine wanting to
>> create a nice, unsubtle display of divine power, it's the paladin -
>> moreso than the cleric, even.
>
> Let's also be honest: it is entirely trivial to excise all of the "burst of
> radiant light" flavour from these abilities.

Note that I never complained about Shielding Smite, even though it's the
flashiest ability, what with an holographic shield appearing, precisely
because the special effect is trivial to ignore. This is also why I had
no problems with the Bo9S crusader's flashy powers, even though I didn't
like the flashy flavour text.

With Divine Challenge, though, the flashy is part of the mechanics as
well. You pick one of the golems 25 ft. away and if it attacks anyone
else, it's plating starts hissing and melting. I'm having trouble seeing
that as other than overt magic.


--
Jasin
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Jasin Zujovic wrote:
>
> With Divine Challenge, though, the flashy is part of the mechanics as
> well. You pick one of the golems 25 ft. away and if it attacks anyone
> else, it's plating starts hissing and melting. I'm having trouble
> seeing that as other than overt magic.

Damage isn't blood bursting fourth from gashes in flesh or melting faces in
Fourth Edition, though. That's obvious because of the way healing works - no
amount of gritting of teeth can fix a melted face.

So the golems take damage because of the anger of the paladin's god. It
doesn't have to be visible, if you know what I mean - and I have trouble
sympathising with a point of view which says a paladin can't ask his god to
smite his foes at 1st level when a wizard can toss a magic missile.

--
Christopher Adams
Sydney, Australia
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Ed Chauvin IV wrote:
>> But in case you speak for others, I'll try to use the example you
>> dismissed elsewhere in the thread:
>>
>> Imagine a spell that summons a planetar. The mere sight of such majesty
>> is such a shock that it deals 1 hit point of damage to everyone within
>> 30 ft. It's a fear effect, and Will negates. The planetar disappears
>> immediately afterwards.
>>
>> Do you think that this is a good 1st-level spell?
>
> I don't even know what 1st level *means* in 4e yet.

Do you think that this is a good 1st-level spell in 3E?

>> I expect that you don't, and that most people wouldn't.
>
> I expect that it would depend on the tone of the game you're playing.
> Such a spell would be completely appropriate in certain anime style
> genres.

I thought that "it's anime!" is supposed to be an attack on 4E, not a
defense of it.

>> For me, the same feeling of aesthetic wrongness this spell causes is
>> caused by 1st-level characters teleporting. The feeling is less intense,
>> but it's there. The mechanics seem inappropriate to the idea of the
>> power, it seems like the power should be more difficult (i.e. higher
>> level, in D&D) and do more. In both cases, teleportation and planetar
>> summoning.
>
> So, you don't think there should be a scaling of teleportation or
> summoning powers? Or is your complaint merely on the granularity of
> the scaling?

My complaint is that not every kind of power should be scaled over the
whole range of levels, because some kinds of powers seem (to me at
least) inherently more magical, unnatural and impressive.

>> Ultimately, my complaint indeed is "me no like". I'm not convinced there
>> are actually going to be significant game play problems with the
>> eladrin's teleport power. But RPGs are more than game play, and I don't
>> think aesthetic complaints should be automatically dismissed.
>
> Well, they are changing the game. It is going to be different. I for
> one, am going to give it a chance. I won't know until I see it in
> action how I'm going to feel about it.

Same here.


--
Jasin
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Jasin Zujovic wrote:
> tussock wrote:

>> [...] You all suddenly remember the critter has been there all along,
>> only now it's participating. Then it goes back to being not important
>> enough to pay attention to as it "goes away".
>
> [...] For effects like summon monster, I have no problem with it
> actually being magical summoning, complete with cheap coloured smoke
> special effects.

Maybe they step out of the nearest shadow? I'm pretty sure it's one
of those things I leave up to individual player's imaginations, like what
the act of spellcasting looks like.

/Gate/, OTOH, that makes a nice show. Giant holes in reality that
overlay two dimensionally incompatable existances, feeding the sense of
one into the other in a fashion appropriate to the destination; ripping
and tearing for the hells, incomprehensable distortions for limbo, layers
of clockwork for mechanus.

--
tussock

I'm like a box of chocolates; you never know what you're gunna get.
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On Mar 5, 4:33 am, "Malachias Invictus" <invictuse... RemoveThis @yahoo.com>
wrote:
> "Hong Ooi" <h... RemoveThis @zipworld.com.au> wrote in message
>
> news:13sqmqr6d59v404@corp.supernews.com...
>
> > Seebs wrote:
> >> On 2008-03-04, Hong Ooi <h... RemoveThis @zipworld.com.au> wrote:
> >>> Divine Challenge followed by the paladin running away, letting the 8
> >>> dmg/round kill the target. They're fixing that.
>
> >> That's a thing of beauty; it's like whirlwind attack, great cleave, and a
> >> bag full of hamsters.
>
> > Heh. Someone noted a similar trick on ENW involving the warlock's Fey Pact
> > teleport-on-kill ability and a bag of hamsters.
>
> Link?

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=220482

It's not that game-breaking a deal, though.
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Jasin Zujovic wrote:
>
>> The Divine Challenge has holes in its implementation, but there's
>> rumblings from the designers that not all has been revealed.
>
> In general, or about Divine Challenge in particular?

Divine Challenge followed by the paladin running away, letting the 8
dmg/round kill the target. They're fixing that.

>
>> then it doesn't really capture that at all. However, I would say that
>> if you wanted to play such a character, a fighter would done just as
>> well, both in 3E and 4E.
>
> But what is concept the intended concept of the paladin, described in
> terms other than 4E's own role/power source paradigm?

I would see the paladin as being the divine champion class, as noted
above. You kick butt and take names for your god; the more complicated
stuff (like politics) you leave to others. This can be contrasted to the
cleric, who is more of a divine protector or prophet. You offer
guidance, make decisions, communicate with the gods, and get things
moving when they bog down. It's a bit murky, but then the paladin's
niche has always been like that.
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On 2008-03-04, Hong Ooi <hong.DeleteThis@zipworld.com.au> wrote:
> Divine Challenge followed by the paladin running away, letting the 8
> dmg/round kill the target. They're fixing that.

That's a thing of beauty; it's like whirlwind attack, great cleave, and a
bag full of hamsters.

--
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http://www.seebs.net/log/ <-- lawsuits, religion, and funny pictures
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Seebs wrote:
> On 2008-03-04, Hong Ooi <hong.RemoveThis@zipworld.com.au> wrote:
>> Divine Challenge followed by the paladin running away, letting the 8
>> dmg/round kill the target. They're fixing that.
>
> That's a thing of beauty; it's like whirlwind attack, great cleave, and a
> bag full of hamsters.
>

Heh. Someone noted a similar trick on ENW involving the warlock's Fey
Pact teleport-on-kill ability and a bag of hamsters.
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"Hong Ooi" <hong RemoveThis @zipworld.com.au> wrote in message
news:13sqmqr6d59v404@corp.supernews.com...
> Seebs wrote:
>> On 2008-03-04, Hong Ooi <hong RemoveThis @zipworld.com.au> wrote:
>>> Divine Challenge followed by the paladin running away, letting the 8
>>> dmg/round kill the target. They're fixing that.
>>
>> That's a thing of beauty; it's like whirlwind attack, great cleave, and a
>> bag full of hamsters.
>>
>
> Heh. Someone noted a similar trick on ENW involving the warlock's Fey Pact
> teleport-on-kill ability and a bag of hamsters.

Link?

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

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