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External
Since: Feb 28, 2008
Posts: 7
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:07 pm
Post subject: |[4E] A Better Look At The Character Sheets
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:58 pm
Post subject: Re: |[4E] A Better Look At The Character Sheets [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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My Conscience wrote:
> http://picasaweb.google.com/gertiebarden/4eCharacterSheets
Paladin is weird. Divine Challenge tags one enemy, and if they make an
attack that doesn't target you, they take a -2 penalty and 8 damage.
Doesn't require intelligence or language. I'm having trouble
conceptualizing this as anything other than Shiny Magic SFX(tm), and I
don't like it.
Lay on Hands is "At-Will (Special)" with "Special: You can use this
power 3 times per day, but only once per round." and it spends one of
your healing surges. I think this could be less convoluted?
The cleric seems to be taking the "you don't have to choose between
buffing and attacking!" thing too far for my tastes: two of his three
at-will powers are "zap enemy with magical light, give bonus to ally"
and the third is "hit enemy with mace, give bonus to ally". Again, I'm
having trouble imagining this as much more than a game construct. Also,
the most damaging power is one of the magic zaps, so unless other kinds
of bonuses are more needed, it seems the cleric will feel more similar
to the wizard in combat in that he will be shooting enemies with magic.
Eladrin can teleport up to 5 squares as a move action as an encounter
power. That means that either there's going to be an absurdly artificial
distinction so that fighting an orc is an encounter but standing in
front of a door wondering how to get in isn't, or a eladrin don't have
to worry about any obstacles less than 30 ft. thick/tall/wide. (Or
perhaps teleport is line of sight/line of effect only?) And even if the
purely game part works, I complained about 1st-level swordsages lighting
their swords on fire as too magical. Now 1st-level eladrin teleporting?
The fighter's "stickiness" is very cool!
But overall, I'm not thrilled. 
--
Jasin |
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Since: Feb 28, 2008
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:58 pm
Post subject: Re: |[4E] A Better Look At The Character Sheets [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Jasin Zujovic wrote:
> My Conscience wrote:
>> http://picasaweb.google.com/gertiebarden/4eCharacterSheets
>
> Paladin is weird. Divine Challenge tags one enemy, and if they make an
> attack that doesn't target you, they take a -2 penalty and 8 damage.
> Doesn't require intelligence or language. I'm having trouble
> conceptualizing this as anything other than Shiny Magic SFX(tm), and I
> don't like it.
Many of the new abilities seem frankly inexplicable except from a
rules-standpoint. What is the story idea behind "hit someone with a
sword and then teleport 5 squares" or whatever?
> Lay on Hands is "At-Will (Special)" with "Special: You can use this
> power 3 times per day, but only once per round." and it spends one of
> your healing surges. I think this could be less convoluted?
For one thing, it breaks the alleged structure of how abilities work,
one thing 4E was supposed to "fix."
> The cleric seems to be taking the "you don't have to choose between
> buffing and attacking!" thing too far for my tastes: two of his three
> at-will powers are "zap enemy with magical light, give bonus to ally"
> and the third is "hit enemy with mace, give bonus to ally". Again, I'm
> having trouble imagining this as much more than a game construct. Also,
> the most damaging power is one of the magic zaps, so unless other kinds
> of bonuses are more needed, it seems the cleric will feel more similar
> to the wizard in combat in that he will be shooting enemies with magic.
Well, I suppose you could explain the ally bonus things as morale
effects ("Look, Jim, the Padre's rocking! We're turning the tide!
Yeeehaww!!") but even so, they seem kinda goofy.
> Eladrin can teleport up to 5 squares as a move action as an encounter
> power. That means that either there's going to be an absurdly artificial
> distinction so that fighting an orc is an encounter but standing in
> front of a door wondering how to get in isn't, or a eladrin don't have
> to worry about any obstacles less than 30 ft. thick/tall/wide. (Or
> perhaps teleport is line of sight/line of effect only?) And even if the
> purely game part works, I complained about 1st-level swordsages lighting
> their swords on fire as too magical. Now 1st-level eladrin teleporting?
What was 3rd level is now 1st level, apparently.
> The fighter's "stickiness" is very cool!
>
> But overall, I'm not thrilled.
I'm still poring over the sheets to see what other things come to mind. >> Stay informed about: |[4E] A Better Look At The Character Sheets |
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Since: Apr 19, 2007
Posts: 153
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:44 pm
Post subject: Re: |[4E] A Better Look At The Character Sheets [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Feb 29, 6:46 pm, "Mark Blunden"
<markATmarkdbDOTplusDOT....DeleteThis@addresss.invalid> wrote:
> "Jasin Zujovic" <jzujo....DeleteThis@inet.hr> wrote in message
>
> news:fq8viv$n2s$1@sunce.iskon.hr...
>
> > My Conscience wrote:
> >>http://picasaweb.google.com/gertiebarden/4eCharacterSheets
>
> > Paladin is weird. Divine Challenge tags one enemy, and if they make an
> > attack that doesn't target you, they take a -2 penalty and 8 damage.
> > Doesn't require intelligence or language. I'm having trouble
> > conceptualizing this as anything other than Shiny Magic SFX(tm), and I
> > don't like it.
>
> <scratches head>
>
> It's a Paladin spell, effectively. What's wrong with it?
because, based on what they are doing with the game, a Paladin
shouldn't be able to do that, a paladin should be able to put himself
in a globe of invulnerability, heal one of his friends to full, spit
on someone twice and teleport home before the globe of invulnerability
wears off. >> Stay informed about: |[4E] A Better Look At The Character Sheets |
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Since: Sep 18, 2006
Posts: 459
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:09 pm
Post subject: Re: |[4E] A Better Look At The Character Sheets [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Blackheart" <blackheart666_2000 DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:66f6c6bd-2382-41f4-b416-6d9b58973956@34g2000hsz.googlegroups.com...
>On Feb 29, 6:46 pm, "Mark Blunden" wrote:
>> "Jasin Zujovic" <jzujo... DeleteThis @inet.hr> wrote...
>> > My Conscience wrote:
>> >>http://picasaweb.google.com/gertiebarden/4eCharacterSheets
>> > Paladin is weird. Divine Challenge tags one enemy, and if they make an
>> > attack that doesn't target you, they take a -2 penalty and 8 damage.
>> > Doesn't require intelligence or language. I'm having trouble
>> > conceptualizing this as anything other than Shiny Magic SFX(tm), and I
>> > don't like it.
>> <scratches head>
>>
>> It's a Paladin spell, effectively. What's wrong with it?
>because, based on what they are doing with the game, a Paladin
>shouldn't be able to do that, a paladin should be able to put himself
>in a globe of invulnerability, heal one of his friends to full, spit
>on someone twice and teleport home before the globe of invulnerability
>wears off.
I'll translate for you, Mark. What is wrong with it is that Blackheart is a
whiny bitch.
--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.
from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley >> Stay informed about: |[4E] A Better Look At The Character Sheets |
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Since: Aug 21, 2004
Posts: 1923
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:23 pm
Post subject: Re: |[4E] A Better Look At The Character Sheets [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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My Conscience wrote:
>>> http://picasaweb.google.com/gertiebarden/4eCharacterSheets
>>
>> Paladin is weird. Divine Challenge tags one enemy, and if they make an
>> attack that doesn't target you, they take a -2 penalty and 8 damage.
>> Doesn't require intelligence or language. I'm having trouble
>> conceptualizing this as anything other than Shiny Magic SFX(tm), and I
>> don't like it.
>
> Many of the new abilities seem frankly inexplicable except from a
> rules-standpoint. What is the story idea behind "hit someone with a
> sword and then teleport 5 squares" or whatever?
Well, that's just a hypothetical ability (as far as I know) of undefined
level, so I'm not worried about that one. Divine Challenge is an actual
1st-level ability.
>> The cleric seems to be taking the "you don't have to choose between
>> buffing and attacking!" thing too far for my tastes: two of his three
>> at-will powers are "zap enemy with magical light, give bonus to ally"
>> and the third is "hit enemy with mace, give bonus to ally". Again, I'm
>> having trouble imagining this as much more than a game construct.
>> Also, the most damaging power is one of the magic zaps, so unless
>> other kinds of bonuses are more needed, it seems the cleric will feel
>> more similar to the wizard in combat in that he will be shooting
>> enemies with magic.
>
> Well, I suppose you could explain the ally bonus things as morale
> effects ("Look, Jim, the Padre's rocking! We're turning the tide!
> Yeeehaww!!") but even so, they seem kinda goofy.
That was how I explained the crusader healing maneuvers to my group when
I was selling Bo9S to them, and I think it's a workable explanation.
The problem with the cleric powers is that you can either shoot a
damage-dealing ray and grant a bonus to attack against the target; or
smack someone with a mace and grant a bonus to AC; or shoot someone with
a slightly less damaging ray and grant either hit points or a save (an
opportunity to end an ongoing effect). Any link between the particular
attack and the bonus seems very tenuous (and it feels like there should
be a link between the weak ray and the hit points boost, because you
cannot combine a mace strike with a hit point boost).
I would've liked it much better if the powers were beneficial riders
that attach to whatever normal attack you choose to use.
>> Eladrin can teleport up to 5 squares as a move action as an encounter
>> power. That means that either there's going to be an absurdly
>> artificial distinction so that fighting an orc is an encounter but
>> standing in front of a door wondering how to get in isn't, or a
>> eladrin don't have to worry about any obstacles less than 30 ft.
>> thick/tall/wide. (Or perhaps teleport is line of sight/line of effect
>> only?) And even if the purely game part works, I complained about
>> 1st-level swordsages lighting their swords on fire as too magical. Now
>> 1st-level eladrin teleporting?
>
> What was 3rd level is now 1st level, apparently.
Teleporting isn't exactly 3rd-level either.
--
Jasin >> Stay informed about: |[4E] A Better Look At The Character Sheets |
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:23 pm
Post subject: Re: |[4E] A Better Look At The Character Sheets [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Mere moments before death, Jasin Zujovic <jzujovic.RemoveThis@inet.hr> hastily
scrawled:
>> What was 3rd level is now 1st level, apparently.
>
>Teleporting isn't exactly 3rd-level either.
30'? Probably LoS only? Meh.
--
DISCLAIMER : WARNING: RULE # 196 is X-rated in that to calculate L,
use X = [(C2/10)^2], and RULE # 193 which is NOT meant to be read by
kids, since RULE # 187 EXPLAINS homosexuality mathematically, using
modifier G @ 11.
"I always feel left out when someone *else* gets killfiled."
--Terry Austin >> Stay informed about: |[4E] A Better Look At The Character Sheets |
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Since: Aug 30, 2007
Posts: 53
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:46 pm
Post subject: Re: |[4E] A Better Look At The Character Sheets [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Jasin Zujovic" <jzujovic.RemoveThis@inet.hr> wrote in message
news:fq8viv$n2s$1@sunce.iskon.hr...
> My Conscience wrote:
>> http://picasaweb.google.com/gertiebarden/4eCharacterSheets
>
> Paladin is weird. Divine Challenge tags one enemy, and if they make an
> attack that doesn't target you, they take a -2 penalty and 8 damage.
> Doesn't require intelligence or language. I'm having trouble
> conceptualizing this as anything other than Shiny Magic SFX(tm), and I
> don't like it.
<scratches head>
It's a Paladin spell, effectively. What's wrong with it?
--
Mark. >> Stay informed about: |[4E] A Better Look At The Character Sheets |
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Since: Aug 21, 2004
Posts: 1923
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 11:25 am
Post subject: Re: |[4E] A Better Look At The Character Sheets [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Ed Chauvin IV wrote:
>>> What was 3rd level is now 1st level, apparently.
>> Teleporting isn't exactly 3rd-level either.
>
> 30'? Probably LoS only? Meh.
"Meh" as in "it still isn't 3rd-level" or "it's a wimpy power,
appropriate for 3rd level"?
They might try to make it appropriate game-wise with various
limitations, and I trust they'll succeed, but it still feels like a
high-level power conceptually. >> Stay informed about: |[4E] A Better Look At The Character Sheets |
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Since: Aug 21, 2004
Posts: 1923
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 11:34 am
Post subject: Re: |[4E] A Better Look At The Character Sheets [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Mark Blunden wrote:
>>> http://picasaweb.google.com/gertiebarden/4eCharacterSheets
>>
>> Paladin is weird. Divine Challenge tags one enemy, and if they make an
>> attack that doesn't target you, they take a -2 penalty and 8 damage.
>> Doesn't require intelligence or language. I'm having trouble
>> conceptualizing this as anything other than Shiny Magic SFX(tm), and I
>> don't like it.
>
> <scratches head>
>
> It's a Paladin spell, effectively. What's wrong with it?
Looks too much like something out of Guild Wars, too little like
something out of Three Hearts & Three Lions.
Not that this is not supposed to be a generic "augh, it's video-game-y!"
complaint. I have no problem with video-game-y, as long as it's those
parts of video games I like. Too many obviously magical visuals, I don't
like. >> Stay informed about: |[4E] A Better Look At The Character Sheets |
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Since: Sep 18, 2006
Posts: 459
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 11:34 am
Post subject: Re: |[4E] A Better Look At The Character Sheets [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Jasin Zujovic" <jzujovic DeleteThis @inet.hr> wrote in message
news:fqbbg4$v7s$1@sunce.iskon.hr...
> Mark Blunden wrote:
>>>> http://picasaweb.google.com/gertiebarden/4eCharacterSheets
>>>
>>> Paladin is weird. Divine Challenge tags one enemy, and if they make an
>>> attack that doesn't target you, they take a -2 penalty and 8 damage.
>>> Doesn't require intelligence or language. I'm having trouble
>>> conceptualizing this as anything other than Shiny Magic SFX(tm), and I
>>> don't like it.
>>
>> <scratches head>
>>
>> It's a Paladin spell, effectively. What's wrong with it?
>
> Looks too much like something out of Guild Wars, too little like something
> out of Three Hearts & Three Lions.
>
> Not that this is not supposed to be a generic "augh, it's video-game-y!"
> complaint. I have no problem with video-game-y, as long as it's those
> parts of video games I like. Too many obviously magical visuals, I don't
> like.
I understand where you are coming from. It seems like you would prefer the
Paladin to be a mainly martial character with divine power on top, whereas
the new model seems to be much more divine power-based and less martially
based.
--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.
from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley >> Stay informed about: |[4E] A Better Look At The Character Sheets |
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Posts: 262
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:14 pm
Post subject: Re: |[4E] A Better Look At The Character Sheets [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Mere moments before death, Jasin Zujovic <jzujovic.DeleteThis@inet.hr> hastily
scrawled:
>Ed Chauvin IV wrote:
>>>> What was 3rd level is now 1st level, apparently.
>>> Teleporting isn't exactly 3rd-level either.
>>
>> 30'? Probably LoS only? Meh.
>
>"Meh" as in "it still isn't 3rd-level" or "it's a wimpy power,
>appropriate for 3rd level"?
>
>They might try to make it appropriate game-wise with various
>limitations, and I trust they'll succeed, but it still feels like a
>high-level power conceptually.
If you say so. I don't see it. As it is, in 3.x a 9th level Wizard
can take himself and other creatures/objects up to 100 miles. How
much better is that than 30 feet, and just yourself (and probably LoS
only)?
Teleport
Conjuration (Teleportation)
Level: Sor/Wiz 5, Travel 5
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal and touch
Target: You and touched objects or other touched willing
creatures
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None and Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: No and Yes (object)
This spell instantly transports you to a designated destination, which
may be as distant as 100 miles per caster level...
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleport.htm
--
DISCLAIMER : WARNING: RULE # 196 is X-rated in that to calculate L,
use X = [(C2/10)^2], and RULE # 193 which is NOT meant to be read by
kids, since RULE # 187 EXPLAINS homosexuality mathematically, using
modifier G @ 11.
"I always feel left out when someone *else* gets killfiled."
--Terry Austin >> Stay informed about: |[4E] A Better Look At The Character Sheets |
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Posts: 1923
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 3:45 am
Post subject: Re: |[4E] A Better Look At The Character Sheets [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Malachias Invictus wrote:
>>>>> http://picasaweb.google.com/gertiebarden/4eCharacterSheets
>>>> Paladin is weird. Divine Challenge tags one enemy, and if they make an
>>>> attack that doesn't target you, they take a -2 penalty and 8 damage.
>>>> Doesn't require intelligence or language. I'm having trouble
>>>> conceptualizing this as anything other than Shiny Magic SFX(tm), and I
>>>> don't like it.
>>> <scratches head>
>>>
>>> It's a Paladin spell, effectively. What's wrong with it?
>> Looks too much like something out of Guild Wars, too little like something
>> out of Three Hearts & Three Lions.
>>
>> Not that this is not supposed to be a generic "augh, it's video-game-y!"
>> complaint. I have no problem with video-game-y, as long as it's those
>> parts of video games I like. Too many obviously magical visuals, I don't
>> like.
>
> I understand where you are coming from. It seems like you would prefer the
> Paladin to be a mainly martial character with divine power on top, whereas
> the new model seems to be much more divine power-based and less martially
> based.
Yes.
Hong is right that Holger or Lancelot could simply be modeled as
fighters with a paladin's code of honour, but I think there's still room
for a magical, divine paladin who magic and connection to the divine is
more subtle than burning enemies with holy light (at least at 1st
level). The 3E paladin's core abilities like divine grace or smite evil
are right about where I want them to be.
--
Jasin >> Stay informed about: |[4E] A Better Look At The Character Sheets |
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:34 am
Post subject: Re: |[4E] A Better Look At The Character Sheets [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Jasin Zujovic wrote:
> Mark Blunden wrote:
>>>> http://picasaweb.google.com/gertiebarden/4eCharacterSheets
>>>
>>> Paladin is weird. Divine Challenge tags one enemy, and if they make
>>> an attack that doesn't target you, they take a -2 penalty and 8
>>> damage. Doesn't require intelligence or language. I'm having trouble
>>> conceptualizing this as anything other than Shiny Magic SFX(tm), and
>>> I don't like it.
>>
>> <scratches head>
>>
>> It's a Paladin spell, effectively. What's wrong with it?
>
> Looks too much like something out of Guild Wars, too little like
> something out of Three Hearts & Three Lions.
>
> Not that this is not supposed to be a generic "augh, it's video-game-y!"
> complaint. I have no problem with video-game-y, as long as it's those
> parts of video games I like. Too many obviously magical visuals, I don't
> like.
A problem with the paladin class has always been that the characters
it's ostensibly based on -- Lancelot, Holger Carlsen et al -- are
basically fighters, mechanically speaking. They fight for truth, justice
and the Lawful Good way, but they do exactly the same thing as every
other guy with a sword. Thus, differentiating the class from the fighter
is something that most D&D editions have had to deal with.
It looks like 4E is going down the "this guy is clearly supported by
divine powers" route. Supported by that is how you'll be able to play
evil paladins, so the class really is a divine champion as opposed to an
honourable, devout warrior. But I think the zeitgeist has been firmly
behind this definition for some time. >> Stay informed about: |[4E] A Better Look At The Character Sheets |
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:34 am
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"Hong Ooi" <hong.DeleteThis@zipworld.com.au> wrote in message
news:13sj8dskeuk8fb9@corp.supernews.com...
> Jasin Zujovic wrote:
>> Mark Blunden wrote:
>>>>> http://picasaweb.google.com/gertiebarden/4eCharacterSheets
>>>>
>>>> Paladin is weird. Divine Challenge tags one enemy, and if they make an
>>>> attack that doesn't target you, they take a -2 penalty and 8 damage.
>>>> Doesn't require intelligence or language. I'm having trouble
>>>> conceptualizing this as anything other than Shiny Magic SFX(tm), and I
>>>> don't like it.
>>>
>>> <scratches head>
>>>
>>> It's a Paladin spell, effectively. What's wrong with it?
>>
>> Looks too much like something out of Guild Wars, too little like
>> something out of Three Hearts & Three Lions.
>>
>> Not that this is not supposed to be a generic "augh, it's video-game-y!"
>> complaint. I have no problem with video-game-y, as long as it's those
>> parts of video games I like. Too many obviously magical visuals, I don't
>> like.
>
> A problem with the paladin class has always been that the characters it's
> ostensibly based on -- Lancelot, Holger Carlsen et al -- are basically
> fighters, mechanically speaking. They fight for truth, justice and the
> Lawful Good way, but they do exactly the same thing as every other guy
> with a sword. Thus, differentiating the class from the fighter is
> something that most D&D editions have had to deal with.
Agreed.
> It looks like 4E is going down the "this guy is clearly supported by
> divine powers" route. Supported by that is how you'll be able to play evil
> paladins, so the class really is a divine champion as opposed to an
> honourable, devout warrior. But I think the zeitgeist has been firmly
> behind this definition for some time.
I certainly think so. I want my paladins to have more divine mojo.
--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.
from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley >> Stay informed about: |[4E] A Better Look At The Character Sheets |
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