Are there any 12-conduct ascensions?

On 2008-01-14, Michiel Helvensteijn <nomail RemoveThis @please.com> wrote:
> Of course, you play on a public server, so you can't really recompile the
> code. But maybe servers should support that 'feature'. It's better than
> rerolling 1000 games and polluting the 'most recent game' log. But it would
> have to be marked as such on the scoreboard, of course.

That's a lot of code for a super-rare event (someone trying 12 conducts);
especially since conducts are something you should be doing entirely
within the 'normal' game parameters, which includes tolerating random
starting equipment. Tenaya12's record should reflect that it took him
'n' startscums to obtain the necessary equipment, as well as 'n' tries
once he got that actual equipment -- and it will, so all's fine here.

The 'most recent game' log isn't a problem; NAO's score-announce-bot
routinely ignores any quits or escapes with fewer than 1000 points,
entirely for the purpose of avoiding startscum spam. And of course,
none of the startscums make it onto the top 2,000 list.

(Besides, one advantage of doing it on a public server is that there's a
public record -- and no question that you _did_ do anything like
'arrange' for some fortuitous starting circumstances.)

--
Derek

Game info and change log: http://sporkhack.com
Beta Server: telnet://sporkhack.com
IRC: irc.freenode.net, #sporkhack
 >> Stay informed about: Are there any 12-conduct ascensions? 

On Jan 8, 2:08 pm, Carl <carlhnel... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm still working on a12-conductascension. I just now rerolled my
> 1000th game on NAO as Tenaya12. Of those 1000, there were 36 games
> that I started with sufficient starting gear and tried to play.
....
> (My apologies to everyone on NAO for filling up the 'Most Recent Game'
> log!)

Don't worry about filling up the most recent game log -- I think their
startscumming filters can handle it just fine.

Just a small note -- I'm still working on my pacifist neutral wizard.
I ran into a problem before the quest trying to work out my alignment.
Somehow my alignment went negative, and I had no means to bring it
positive. All priests in the game (Minetown and Valley) were cross-
aligned, and so were all altars. With negative alignment, I can't
safely try to convert an altar, and then raise my alignment through
cross-aligned unicorn sacs.

I saved my game and waited a while to think about what to do. I read
the praying spoiler over and over to find something I could use to
raise my alignment as a neutral non-healer, until I noticed the bit
about getting a +2 bonus for angering a non-coaligned priest. Sweet! I
went down to the Valley (the Minetown priest was already dead), and
emptied two wands of sleep into him, alternately zapping him (making
sure to stand *outside* the temple as I did this), and then getting
next to him and casting Charm Monster until he pacified. This method
alone was able to take my alignment from negative to +20 so that I
could go on the quest.

I didn't realize how cool this was until Contra_Duck pointed out that
this is atheist-conduct acceptable, as it doesn't involve any
donations or sacrifices.

You may have already had your alignment boosting planned out, but in
case you hadn't, I thought I'd share this method with you.

Looking forward to hearing more about your progress!

--clint
 >> Stay informed about: Are there any 12-conduct ascensions? 

On Jan 16, 9:16 am, HanClinto <HanCli... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 8, 2:08 pm, Carl <carlhnel... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm still working on a12-conductascension.  I just now rerolled my
> > 1000th game on NAO as Tenaya12.  Of those 1000, there were 36 games
> > that I started with sufficient starting gear and tried to play.
> ...
> > (My apologies to everyone on NAO for filling up the 'Most Recent Game'
> > log!)
>
> Don't worry about filling up the most recent game log -- I think their
> startscumming filters can handle it just fine.
>
> Just a small note -- I'm still working on my pacifist neutral wizard.
> I ran into a problem before the quest trying to work out my alignment.
> Somehow my alignment went negative, and I had no means to bring it
> positive. All priests in the game (Minetown and Valley) were cross-
> aligned, and so were all altars. With negative alignment, I can't
> safely try to convert an altar, and then raise my alignment through
> cross-aligned unicorn sacs.
>
> I saved my game and waited a while to think about what to do. I read
> the praying spoiler over and over to find something I could use to
> raise my alignment as a neutral non-healer, until I noticed the bit
> about getting a +2 bonus for angering a non-coaligned priest. Sweet! I
> went down to the Valley (the Minetown priest was already dead), and
> emptied two wands of sleep into him, alternately zapping him (making
> sure to stand *outside* the temple as I did this), and then getting
> next to him and casting Charm Monster until he pacified. This method
> alone was able to take my alignment from negative to +20 so that I
> could go on the quest.
>
> I didn't realize how cool this was until Contra_Duck pointed out that
> this is atheist-conduct acceptable, as it doesn't involve any
> donations or sacrifices.
>
> You may have already had your alignment boosting planned out, but in
> case you hadn't, I thought I'd share this method with you.

Thanks for the tip! That's a nice trick especially given the
challenges associated with being neutral. Fortunately I'll have an
easier time since I'm playing a chaotic. I was hoping for cross-
aligned priests and was going to throw a rock at each for hopefully
+4, then I was going to dig a pit outside of as many shops as I could
find and then teleport out for hopefully another few points (I'm a
wizard and I'll need the cream pies anyway for wielding), then I'll
hopefully get the remainder with foocubi consorting.
>
> Looking forward to hearing more about your progress!

I got tired of dying so quickly/often so I'm taking a break and
working on a Caveman in Spork. Hopefully I'll ascend and feel
refreshed and ready to get back to work on my 12-conduct project.
 >> Stay informed about: Are there any 12-conduct ascensions? 

On Jan 14, 1:50 pm, Derek Ray <de....TakeThisOut@moot.its.only.a.spamtrap.org>
wrote:
> On 2008-01-14, Carl <carlhnel....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 14, 12:04 pm, Derek Ray <de....TakeThisOut@moot.its.only.a.spamtrap.org>
> >> starting equipment.  Tenaya12's record should reflect that it took him
> >> 'n' startscums to obtain the necessary equipment, as well as 'n' tries
> >> once he got that actual equipment -- and it will, so all's fine here.
> > Hopefully, if I ever manage to pull this off, the record will show
> > that with a not-too-uncommon starting set of equipment, sufficient in-
> > game luck, and sufficient skill, 12-conducts are possible, even
> > without finding a bones file.
>
> Sure.  It's not unreasonable to predicate a certain set of starting
> equipment as being "necessary" for a reasonable chance at something like
> 12 conducts; but by the same token, it's also good to have the number of
> tries it takes to _obtain_ that set of starting equipment reflected as
> part of the public record.
>
> Bones files are tricky.  I understand your desire to avoid a Conducty
> scenario, but at the same time some bones files would be quite capable
> of _ending_ a 12-conduct player's game; there's an argument to be made
> that both the negative and positive swing of such bones could be
> permitted as random chance.  (Of course, as soon as you say that you'll
> run into some wizard's bones on DL6 who choked on his food while on the
> way back up with the Amulet and a full AK, potentially trashing the
> experiment in one sense.  
>
They are quite tricky and you're right, if I step onto a level where
someone had a pet arch-lich there is not much chance I'll survive
unless I'm quite a ways along in my game. I have not had the
opportunity to need to make any tough decisions on this project yet as
all of the bones files that I have found have been very modest. The
way I'll probably approach it is that if I find a bones file, I'll
keep those items that can be ordinarily found but stow away those
items that seem toolucky(1).

(1) toolucky = a subjective value to be defined later if the
opportunity presents itself
 >> Stay informed about: Are there any 12-conduct ascensions? 

HanClinto wrote:
> I saved my game and waited a while to think about what to do. I read
> the praying spoiler over and over to find something I could use to
> raise my alignment as a neutral non-healer, until I noticed the bit
> about getting a +2 bonus for angering a non-coaligned priest. Sweet! I
> went down to the Valley (the Minetown priest was already dead), and
> emptied two wands of sleep into him, alternately zapping him (making
> sure to stand *outside* the temple as I did this), and then getting
> next to him and casting Charm Monster until he pacified. This method
> alone was able to take my alignment from negative to +20 so that I
> could go on the quest.
>
> I didn't realize how cool this was until Contra_Duck pointed out that
> this is atheist-conduct acceptable, as it doesn't involve any
> donations or sacrifices.

IIRC you must not chat with them either.

-HJC
 >> Stay informed about: Are there any 12-conduct ascensions? 

On Jan 16, 9:16 am, HanClinto <HanCli....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 8, 2:08 pm, Carl <carlhnel....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm still working on a12-conductascension.  I just now rerolled my
> > 1000th game on NAO as Tenaya12.  Of those 1000, there were 36 games
> > that I started with sufficient starting gear and tried to play.
> ...
> > (My apologies to everyone on NAO for filling up the 'Most Recent Game'
> > log!)
>
> Don't worry about filling up the most recent game log -- I think their
> startscumming filters can handle it just fine.
>
> Just a small note -- I'm still working on my pacifist neutral wizard.
> I ran into a problem before the quest trying to work out my alignment.
> Somehow my alignment went negative, and I had no means to bring it
> positive. All priests in the game (Minetown and Valley) were cross-
> aligned, and so were all altars. With negative alignment, I can't
> safely try to convert an altar, and then raise my alignment through
> cross-aligned unicorn sacs.
>
> I saved my game and waited a while to think about what to do. I read
> the praying spoiler over and over to find something I could use to
> raise my alignment as a neutral non-healer, until I noticed the bit
> about getting a +2 bonus for angering a non-coaligned priest. Sweet! I
> went down to the Valley (the Minetown priest was already dead), and
> emptied two wands of sleep into him, alternately zapping him (making
> sure to stand *outside* the temple as I did this), and then getting
> next to him and casting Charm Monster until he pacified. This method
> alone was able to take my alignment from negative to +20 so that I
> could go on the quest.
>
> I didn't realize how cool this was until Contra_Duck pointed out that
> this is atheist-conduct acceptable, as it doesn't involve any
> donations or sacrifices.
>
> You may have already had your alignment boosting planned out, but in
> case you hadn't, I thought I'd share this method with you.
>
I may be wrong, but I think another way of increasing alignment as a
lawful or neutral pacifist is to wear a helm of opposite alignment and
then have fun as a chaotic for a while. I think that numerical
alignment is not affected by this type of alignment change, but if
someone knows differently, please let me know.
 >> Stay informed about: Are there any 12-conduct ascensions? 

On Jan 18, 9:52 am, Topi Linkala <n... RemoveThis @iki.fi> wrote:
> Carl wrote:
> > I may be wrong, but I think another way of increasing alignment as a
> > lawful or neutral pacifist is to wear a helm of opposite alignment and
> > then have fun as a chaotic for a while.  I think that numerical
> > alignment is not affected by this type of alignment change, but if
> > someone knows differently, please let me know.
>
> No it doesn't, but that IMHo is a bug. How come your alignment for the
> new god can be up when all the time you've done things against her will+
>

Changing alignment via a Helm of Opposite Alignment does seem pretty
lacking in downsides. The auto-cursing requires some consideration
but other than that it is a great item. Perhaps when switching
alignment via the helm, the hero's numerical alignment could be rest
to n? Where n=0, maybe?

One of my hopes for my 12-conduct game is to find a helm of opposite
alignment and a longsword (starting as a chaotic), then I'll dip for
Excalibur and have some protection against unpleasant foocubi
experiences.
 >> Stay informed about: Are there any 12-conduct ascensions? 

On Jan 18, 11:52 am, Topi Linkala <n... DeleteThis @iki.fi> wrote:
> Carl wrote:
> > I may be wrong, but I think another way of increasing alignment as a
> > lawful or neutral pacifist is to wear a helm of opposite alignment and
> > then have fun as a chaotic for a while. I think that numerical
> > alignment is not affected by this type of alignment change, but if
> > someone knows differently, please let me know.
>
> No it doesn't, but that IMHo is a bug. How come your alignment for the
> new god can be up when all the time you've done things against her will+
>
> Topi 'Reported as such.' Linkala
> --
> "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are
> always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
> - Bertrand Russell
> "How come he didn't put 'I think' at the end of it?" - Anonymous

I think this makes sense, because, to quote one of the spoilers
"you're doing the right thing at the time". so if you're chaotic,
doing chaotic things means you're following your path, and if you
switch to lawful, it still means you followed your proper path (even
though it may not have been very lawful). kind of like a credit
history. if you give up using one bank and switch to another, you
still have the good/bad credit history from the previous one.
 >> Stay informed about: Are there any 12-conduct ascensions? 

Carl wrote:

> I may be wrong, but I think another way of increasing alignment as a
> lawful or neutral pacifist is to wear a helm of opposite alignment and
> then have fun as a chaotic for a while. I think that numerical
> alignment is not affected by this type of alignment change, but if
> someone knows differently, please let me know.

No it doesn't, but that IMHo is a bug. How come your alignment for the
new god can be up when all the time you've done things against her will+

Topi 'Reported as such.' Linkala
--
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are
always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
- Bertrand Russell
"How come he didn't put 'I think' at the end of it?" - Anonymous
 >> Stay informed about: Are there any 12-conduct ascensions? 

On 2008-01-18, Carl wrote:
> Changing alignment via a Helm of Opposite Alignment does seem pretty
> lacking in downsides. The auto-cursing requires some consideration
> but other than that it is a great item.

That, and you lose all your protection.

> Perhaps when switching
> alignment via the helm, the hero's numerical alignment could be rest
> to n? Where n=0, maybe?

Outside of a pacifist game, alignment doesn't have enough impact to make this
significant, IMO. Yes, that's a fault of the alignment system, not of your
concept.

--
Ohle Claussen | GPG-Key-ID E7149169
----------===========----------
"Our nation must come together to unite."
--dubya
 >> Stay informed about: Are there any 12-conduct ascensions? 

Ohle Claussen wrote:
> On 2008-01-18, Carl wrote:
>> Changing alignment via a Helm of Opposite Alignment does seem pretty
>> lacking in downsides. The auto-cursing requires some consideration
>> but other than that it is a great item.
>
> That, and you lose all your protection.

In a 12 conduct game that isn't a problem, as you can't #chat with priests
nor #pray to gain protection. Of course, in a normal game that is a
downside.


--
Panu
"You haven't really been anywhere until you've got back home",
Twoflower in "The Light Fantastic"
 >> Stay informed about: Are there any 12-conduct ascensions? 

On 2008-01-20, Panu Lahtinen wrote:
> Ohle Claussen wrote:
>> On 2008-01-18, Carl wrote:
>>> Changing alignment via a Helm of Opposite Alignment does seem pretty
>>> lacking in downsides. The auto-cursing requires some consideration
>>> but other than that it is a great item.
>>
>> That, and you lose all your protection.
>
> In a 12 conduct game that isn't a problem, as you can't #chat with priests
> nor #pray to gain protection. Of course, in a normal game that is a
> downside.

Seeing how Carl went on to debate possible gameplay tweaks to "rebalance" the
helm, I didn't think the discussion was restricted to conduct games anymore.

--
Ohle Claussen | GPG-Key-ID E7149169
----------===========----------
BOFH Excuse #134:
because of network lag due to too many people playing deathmatch
 >> Stay informed about: Are there any 12-conduct ascensions? 

Quoting Carl <carlhnelson DeleteThis @gmail.com>:
>I may be wrong, but I think another way of increasing alignment as a
>lawful or neutral pacifist is to wear a helm of opposite alignment and
>then have fun as a chaotic for a while. I think that numerical
>alignment is not affected by this type of alignment change, but if
>someone knows differently, please let me know.

That's very true, although tricky if you're trying "naked".
--
David Damerell <damerell DeleteThis @chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
Today is Friday, January.
 >> Stay informed about: Are there any 12-conduct ascensions?